How are Space Marine Fleets Organized?

[DogWelder]

So this is my initial impression based on the fleet strength of the Ultramarines Chapter. Favoritism aside, this was the Chapter of whom I could find the most reliable numbers for (ie: numbers backed up by multiple sources and the fact that all of their vessels are named and have appeared in books/other released materials)

 

3 Battle Barges

14 Strike Cruisers

12 Escorts

 

Since every company has its own Strike Cruiser (besides the 1st which uses a Battle-Barge and 10th which consists purely of scouts), 8 of the Strike Cruisers are of standard design used to transport their respective companies with the remaining 6 being Vanguard Light Cruisers (which is a stripped down variant of the Strike Cruiser used in scouting or heavy escort roles).

 

Here is how each Space Marine 'Battlefleet' would be organized*:

• 1 Battle Barge as the Fleet Flagship
  
• 2 Strike Cruisers as line ships
  
• 4 Escorts (Gladius Frigates/Hunter Destroyers/Nova Frigates) as fire support and point defense
  
• 2 Vanguard Light Cruisers for scouting and heavy escort duty
  

 

There are 3 'Battlefleets' that the Chapter can deploy, leaving 2 Strike Cruisers in reserve. Which would make sense as they would nominally have to make allowances for damaged vessels in port. Do you guys think this makes sense or have a better idea for how the fleets would be organized? This is the general idea I have from reading the novels and from Battlefleet Gothic.

 

*My main source for the Space Marines using Battlefleets of their own is from 'Death of Integrity' where the 1st Captain of the Novamarines was leading 'Battlefleet Trident' whose composition is similar to that described above.

 

Source for all numbers used: http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Ultramarines

[Brother Tyler]

A key problem is that the lore has changed over the years. The first reliable information on the (modern/current) Ultramarines fleet, for example, came from a BFG article (not Space Marine Fleets, which detailed general details about Adeptus Astartes fleets and provided several fleet types for BFG, but The Ultramarines). Here are a few excerpts:
 

Battlebarges
...Normally, chapters would only possess two or three of these crushing vessels [battlebarges] but [the] Ultramarines can field five as Ultramar traditionally depended on them for sector naval protection.

Ultramarine battle barges include:
Pro Merito
Lost in the warp while in transit to put down a rebellion on Tar Centiri...

Aeternus
The most venerable battle barge on the Ultramarine ship list.

Emperor Incarnatus
Considered to be an unusually holy and hence 'lucky' ship

Adsidus
This ship was Lord Canastra's Fleet Headquarters for the Hydra-9 strike where an entire planet was subdued during three days of continuous battle.

Seditio Opprimere
Destroyed the heretic cruiser Sporespitter.

Lord Laomedon
Built to replace the Pro Merito.

Strike Cruisers
...The Ultramarines maintain a permanent fleet of ten strike cruisers, though this number has been known to increase as demand requires. The most famous, the Vae Victus, is often used on detached duties. Other famous strike cruisers include the Iter Splendere, the Fidelis, the Internecio, and the Accipiter.

Both articles I named appeared during the 3rd edition of the game. Later information has added to/changed this information.

My own speculation is that a Chapter's ratio of battle barges ( B ) : strike cruisers ( S )(other ship types are largely irrelevant) would allow for the entire Chapter to be transported at once. So (3xB)+(1xS)≥10 and S≥B. This isn't a hard and fast rule, with typical Chapter fleet strength sometimes allowing for slightly more than 10 companies, depending on its normal operating parameters. And Chapter fleet size could potentially be less than would be required to transport the entire Chapter depending on the vicissitudes of battle (i.e., when one or more ships are lost in battle or the Warp, it takes time to replace them, if they can be replaced). Also, despite the math I provided, I'd guess that Chapters typically have 3 or more strike cruisers, and should have more strike cruisers than battle barges (this comes down to operating parameters, with company-sized detachments being the typical operating element of the Adeptus Astartes).

 

Overall, a deployed fleet composition will largely depend upon the size of the detachment. In a typical company-sized detachment, a strike cruiser might be sufficient (with escorts, thunderhawks, etc.). Larger detachments will have a number of factors, including whether or not the entire detachment deployed at the same time (allowing as much consolidation as possible), actual size of the detachment (e.g., a two-company detachment might get by on a single battle barge or two strike cruisers whereas an eight-company detachment would require at least three ships), concept of operations upon arrival at the battle zone (e.g., a fleet sent to participate in a fleet action might constitute its fleet based on other units participating in the action, enemy forces, area to be covered, etc.; whereas a detachment sent to quell a planetary uprising might need a different composition of ships (e.g., a primitive world without surface-/space-based defenses against ships might require only a single ship). The Imperial Armour books have shown multiple examples of fleet compositions and will prove instructive (I'll provide some examples later once I have time to go look at my books).

There have been numerous discussions on this subject over the years. Naval Operations of Ultramar is a pretty good one specific to the Ultramarines (who are considered exceptional, so should be considered as something of an upper limit to what most other Chapters might expect to have in their fleet, with some fleet-based Chapters such as the Black Templars and others potentially exceeding the resources of the Ultramarines).

Edited October 26, 2017 by Brother Tyler

[Seahawk]

One thing to keep in mind is that Lexi is always wrong and doesn't cite sources. ;)

 

By my count, the Ultramarines have 7 serviceable Battle Barges, and 15+ Strike Cruisers. The Ultramarines "standing fleet" generally means though that only 10 Strike Cruisers are active except by necessity, and, well, that's a lot of BB to crew.

 

I strongly suggest following the link Brother Tyler supplied above (also in my sig). While the vast majority of the thread is about the Ultramarines naval assets, I've also added as much information as I've found and can source about other Chapters and what fleets they can bring to bear. Some, like the Space Wolves, far outstrip even the assets of mighty Ultramar (somehow ;) ), while battered and bloody Blood Angels have smaller fleets.

[Brother Tyler]

Okay, here are some examples of fleets from some of Forge World's Imperial Armour books. I've limited my examples to those found in Volume Three - The Taros Campaign and both of the Badab War books (volumes nine and ten). There are additional examples in other books, but the variety here is sufficient to illustrate my point. I've deliberately avoided the Horus Heresy books because the Legiones Astartes were organized and operated in a manner that differs significantly from "modern" Adeptus Astartes Chapters.

 

The initial Adeptus Astartes force sent to Taros was the Taros Intervention Force of the Avenging Sons Chapter. The Avenging Sons sent only a single company, with some attachments, because the threat at that time, as identified by the Administratum, was thought to be only the local Imperial government conspiring with xenos. The Avenging Sons Chapter sent:

• 1x strike cruiser (Proxima Justus)
• 1x escort (class and name unidentified)

A subsequent Adeptus Astartes force was deployed to Taros after the full scale of the threat was identified. Note that the Avenging Sons Taros Intervention Force had departed in failure by this time, so the follow-on force was the only Adeptus Astartes presence in the later stage of the war (with lots of other forces of the Imperium). The Raptors Chapter sent Strike Force Orelius, which consisted of the 3rd and 6th companies, along with additional attachments. The strike force consisted of the following vessels:

• 1x battle barge (War Talon)
• 1x Gladius class escort

The Badab War, on the other hand, was a far different affair from the Taros Campaign. It was almost exclusively fought between Adeptus Astartes Chapters. Note that the following is drawn only from the Badab War Disposition sections in each Chapter's entry, so if anyone knows of additional information provided elsewhere in the books, please provide it for clarity (especially if it adds to the Chapter fleets I describe below).

 

The Astral Claws are estimated to have stood at about 3,000 battle-brothers in strength, but their fleet is estimated to having consisted of:

• 2x battle barges
• 1x Cardinal class heavy cruiser
• 7x strike cruisers
• 30+ escorts of various classes (exact number unknown)

The Fire Hawks fought the war from their star fortress, the Raptorous Rex, but had the following fleet assets:

• "vanguard ship" (not a battle barge?) Red Harbinger (lost to the Mantis Warriors in the early days of the Badab War)
• 2x battle barges
• 7x cruisers of varying classes (including strike cruisers?)
• 30+ escort and tinder [tender?] vessels

Note that the book indicates that the overall fleet strength was "well in excess of what might be expected of two more commonly outfitted Chapters" (even though all but the Raptorous Rex of the Chapter's capital ships was lost during the Badab War).

 

The Marines Errant deployed six full companies to the Badab War, though their fleet assets aren't identified.

 

The Red Scorpions deployed eight companies to the Badab War, their fleet consisting of:

• 2x battle barges
• 4x strike cruisers

The Fire Angels deployed a force equivalent to seven companies, though their fleet assets aren't identified.

 

The Raptors deployed a force equivalent to four companies aboard a fleet consisting of:

• 1x battle barge (War Talon)
• 2x strike cruisers (Arias Vex and Shadow Stalker)
• 10x Gladius class frigate escorts

The Lamenters fought at full strength during the Badab War (indeed, each of the secessionist Maelstrom Warders effectively fought at full strength). The Chapter fought from its mobile base, the Warp Barque Mater Lachrymarum and its fleet consisted of:

• 2x battle barges (described as being "unusually powerful")
• 6x strike cruisers
• 3x vanguard cruisers
• 2x forge ships
• 22x escorts of various classes
• 12x (estimated) support vessels

The Novamarines deployed a force aboard a fleet consisting of:

• 3x strike cruisers
• 12x supporting attack craft and tenders

The Howling Griffons deployed a force of about 200 battle-brothers aboard a fleet that is largely unidentified, except for the strike cruiser Augeias (lost to the Executioners Chapter). Since the force later returned to their homeworld aboard Warp-capable vessels commandeered from renegade worlds, it might be inferred that the Augeias was the only capital ship in the Howling Griffons fleet deployed to Badab.

 

The Mantis Warriors, another of the secessionist Chapters, fought at full, though under-strength, Chapter size. Their fleet stood at:

• 1x battle barge
• 3x strike cruisers
• 2x vanguard cruisers
• 6x armed transports
• 19+ escort and attack vessels of varying types and classes (including several formerly renegade and re-commissioned xenos vessels)

The Salamanders force was about 200 battle-brothers in strength (rough estimate on my part). Their fleet isn't described in detail, though it may have consisted only of the battle barge Pyre of Glory (see The Red Hour) (and perhaps some escorts and/or support vessels).

 

The Executioners deployed in two stages, with all but the 2nd Company and roughly half of the 10th Company fighting in the Badab War. Their overall fleet size included:

• 1x deep-range cruiser (Night Hag, formerly a Rogue Trader vessel)
• 1x battle barge
• 3x strike cruisers
• 2x vanguard cruisers
• 10x Sword class frigates

The Sons of Medusa deployed a combined force of somewhere between six and five companies in size aboard a fleet consisting of:

• 1x battle barge
• 6x strike cruisers
• 2x forge ships
• 14x escort vessels

The Minotaurs Chapter committed their full strength to the war, one of the few loyalist Chapters to do so. Their fleet is only described as having consisted of "eleven capital ships of various types" without further specificity. Elsewhere in their Chapter entry, they are described as one time fighting from "more than a dozen strike cruisers" in an earlier campaign.

 

The Carcharadons [Astra] deployed a force of about six hundred battle-brothers aboard a fleet described as "though sizable largely comprised light to medium ships and auxiliary vessels commanded by a single battle-barge of non-standard pattern" (the Nicor, based on the hull of a Charybdis class grand cruiser, a ship type rarely seen since the early days of the Great Crusade).

 

The Exorcists sent a force of almost six hundred battle-brothers in:

• 2x battle barges
• 3x strike cruisers
• 17x escorts and attack craft

The Star Phantoms were another of the loyalist Chapters to deploy their full strength aboard a fleet consisting of:

• 2x battle barges (Memento Mori and Pale Wrath)
• 7x strike cruisers
• 25x escort and assault vessels of varying classes and sizes

[DogWelder]

Those seem like really small fleets...

 

I thought the Ultramarine disposition was the 'standard' for every Space Marine Chapter since they gave so much detail about it.

[Arkangilos]

The 7th edition codices have their fleet sizes.

 

Also Lexi is not always wrong, and almost always cites the source. The wikia (the other one) is the one that doesn't cite sources.

[Brother Tyler]

Those seem like really small fleets...

 

I thought the Ultramarine disposition was the 'standard' for every Space Marine Chapter since they gave so much detail about it.

The first article I quoted indicated that the average Chapter has only two or three battle barges at most, with the Ultramarines and their five (or more) battle barges being exceptional (because they use their ships for additional duties that most other Chapters don't have - patrolling great swathes of space within the Realm of Ultramar).

 

It's erroneous to assume that "every company has its own Strike Cruiser" or that the 1st company has its own battle barge - there is no official lore anywhere that I know of that asserts this as the norm.

 

Also keep in mind that the fleets I cited above were, except where indicated, for less than full Chapters. Don't assume from this, though, that Chapters that sent two battle barges, but which sent forces less than their full Chapter in strength, have additional battle barges. The nature of the Badab War was Space Marine versus Space Marine, so Chapters quite likely sent the most potent forces that they could afford to send at the time (some Chapter entries indicated that commitments elsewhere prevented them from sending larger forces).

[Beta galactosidase]

A chapter is a thousand line marines and some number of staff officers to keep them going, that us the only requirement. It's likely that a few chapter fleets are just a single large battle barge and maybe some frigates. The Space Marines don't have a typical fleet and the Ultramarines are so rich that they definitely aren't it.

 

There is also the problem that most companies could not use their own ship. Most of them have three squads off by themselves, four squads detached to one company, two with a different company, and the last lost or in turnaround. Even in the battle companies which you expect to be together, it's likely one of them has detached a few squads to be liaisons or clean up the 200 lictors or lychguard that are marauding around somewhere. According to the Naval Operations thread, some of them will have to be captaining ships and not require a special dedicated ship to carry them.

[Seahawk]

Those seem like really small fleets...

 

I thought the Ultramarine disposition was the 'standard' for every Space Marine Chapter since they gave so much detail about it.

 

Definitely not; they're a great exception, simply because they have so many resources and forgeworlds with which to build what they need. Most other Chapters get hand-me-downs and have to just make do. I'd hazard a guess that most have 1 Battle Barge and 4-6 Strike Cruisers at their disposal. The Space Wolves are at the other end of the spectrum, with a fleet eclipsing even the Ultramarines; officially, they're toting 8 Battle Barges, 30+ Strike Cruisers, and so many escorts.

 

Ships are not set for any specific company. Rather, they're simply assigned to a task force based on availability and readiness.

[DogWelder]

 

Those seem like really small fleets...

 

I thought the Ultramarine disposition was the 'standard' for every Space Marine Chapter since they gave so much detail about it.

 

Definitely not; they're a great exception, simply because they have so many resources and forgeworlds with which to build what they need. Most other Chapters get hand-me-downs and have to just make do. I'd hazard a guess that most have 1 Battle Barge and 4-6 Strike Cruisers at their disposal. The Space Wolves are at the other end of the spectrum, with a fleet eclipsing even the Ultramarines; officially, they're toting 8 Battle Barges, 30+ Strike Cruisers, and so many escorts.

 

Ships are not set for any specific company. Rather, they're simply assigned to a task force based on availability and readiness.

 

 

Oh? But isn't the Valin's Revenge exclusively the Ultramarines 2nd Company's flagship/carrier? In the same way the Vae Victus is with the 4th and the Indefectible Vengeance is with the 3rd and the Rex Aeterna the 5th.

 

Thats what the SM Battles books with the Ultramarines and the Omnibus made it sound like anyway.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

That may be for the Ultramarines, but different Chapters are going to operate in different ways.  Honestly, it doesn't make sense to permanent assign a flagship to each company -- even if it's just the battle companies -- because then the entire organization has to shift its methodologies when exigent circumstances rear their ugly heads.  Consider, say, the 4th Company of the Ultramarines.  Their assigned flagship is the Vae Victus, as you say.  So what happens if the 4th, 5th, and elements of the 1st and 10th Companies are all crammed into a single battle barge which is sent off on its own to dump a task force or two on a rebellious planet?  Any special relationship between the leadership and membership of the 4th with the Victus and their crew, something for which they might otherwise rely on to get work done in the crucible of battle, is going to be missing. . . and missing pieces usually means that mistakes will be made, something that any military force really can't afford (especially Space Marines, since they operate in such comparatively small numbers).

[DogWelder]

That may be for the Ultramarines, but different Chapters are going to operate in different ways.  Honestly, it doesn't make sense to permanent assign a flagship to each company -- even if it's just the battle companies -- because then the entire organization has to shift its methodologies when exigent circumstances rear their ugly heads.  Consider, say, the 4th Company of the Ultramarines.  Their assigned flagship is the Vae Victus, as you say.  So what happens if the 4th, 5th, and elements of the 1st and 10th Companies are all crammed into a single battle barge which is sent off on its own to dump a task force or two on a rebellious planet?  Any special relationship between the leadership and membership of the 4th with the Victus and their crew, something for which they might otherwise rely on to get work done in the crucible of battle, is going to be missing. . . and missing pieces usually means that mistakes will be made, something that any military force really can't afford (especially Space Marines, since they operate in such comparatively small numbers).

 

I imagine the Battle-Barges (besides the one assigned to the 1st Company) have a crew trained just to handle that kind of situation since the two remaining ones have to service the Chapter in General not a single company. Perhaps the crew of the Strike Cruisers are taught to adjust to their respective company and the crew of the Battle-Barges are taught to work well with every company.

[Beta galactosidase]

There isn't any problem with a special relationship between ships crews and marine companies, as you can see in the Naval Ops thread:

 

" In some cases, it will be the Master of the Fleet's own company who provide these Marines, with each of his veteran captains acting as captain to a different vessel within the fleet while their own squad members each man a different vital area within that same vessel. In other cases, squads from different companies within the Chapter may be charged with manning the fleet, serving under the command of the Master of the Fleet in just the same way as a Space Marine battleforce may be made up of squads drawn from several companies across the Chapter"

 

 

So they don't have to have a special relationship, because the ship crews simply are active duty line marines. They understand perfectly what the squads need their ships to do, because they are themselves infantry squads that happen to be controlling a ship. The ships are best used as delivery systems for space marines, they don't have to bother with a specialized fleet command.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Those are all terrible ideas.  First of all, there is only one "veteran captain" in a Company, unless you meant to say that the sergeants command ships?  Which is still a terrible idea.  Commanding a warship in a void battle is an extremely specialized and difficult task for which few Marines are trained and skilled, and we consistently see it presented that way in the novels (reference The Exalted, and the Silver Skulls Captain from Gildar Rift).  There's also the fact that I wouldn't want to waste Space Marines as a warship crew.  Marines should be a ship's cargo: they are weapons to be delivered, whether via boarding pod or drop pod, and it would be a waste to have them as subsection chiefs running things like the gun crews or the engine room.  They'll do more damage with blade and bolter in hand than they would ordering serfs and servitors around, especially since regular humans can do that just as well.

 

As for my contention about special relationships, you've obviously never been in the military.  Members of a team that spend a long time training together and operating together instinctively develop patterns in how they operate.  These patterns are unspoken, unplanned, and often unconsciously-developed idiosyncrasies that naturally develop over time and contribute to the smooth running of the organization during normal operations as well as during times of crisis.  Sometimes its just as simple as relying on that one guy who is super competent at his job always being there, so you know you don't need to supervise him.

 

That's my perfect example.  When I was running a Tactical Operations Center in Iraq, I had one RTO (radio/telephone operator, the guys who just sit there and rely messages over the radio all day long) who was that super-competent guy.  He knew all our helicopter pilots and their call-signs, he knew all the call-signs for the higher and adjacent units, he knew when the flights were coming in and going out on a daily basis, he knew how to load the cryptographic ciphers into the radio, how to switch frequencies. . . there was nothing about those radios and his job manning those radios that he was not an expert in.  As a result, it was always smooth running with him, which allowed me to concentrate on other things.  But when he went on mid-tour leave back to the States, we had to make do with a mouth-breather who spent more time writing flight schedules than running radios.  As a result, I had less time to focus on other tasks because I had to constantly re-train him and provide direct supervision.  With enough coaching, he eventually became competent at his tasks, but that change in how our team operated threw everyone for a loop for a few weeks.

[Beta galactosidase]

I didn't say that, Games Workshop said that. That's the way it is, at least all of the time except for those two specific novels. Edited November 3, 2017 by curvacious

[Seahawk]

 

 

Those seem like really small fleets...

 

I thought the Ultramarine disposition was the 'standard' for every Space Marine Chapter since they gave so much detail about it.

 

Definitely not; they're a great exception, simply because they have so many resources and forgeworlds with which to build what they need. Most other Chapters get hand-me-downs and have to just make do. I'd hazard a guess that most have 1 Battle Barge and 4-6 Strike Cruisers at their disposal. The Space Wolves are at the other end of the spectrum, with a fleet eclipsing even the Ultramarines; officially, they're toting 8 Battle Barges, 30+ Strike Cruisers, and so many escorts.

 

Ships are not set for any specific company. Rather, they're simply assigned to a task force based on availability and readiness.

 

 

Oh? But isn't the Valin's Revenge exclusively the Ultramarines 2nd Company's flagship/carrier? In the same way the Vae Victus is with the 4th and the Indefectible Vengeance is with the 3rd and the Rex Aeterna the 5th.

 

Thats what the SM Battles books with the Ultramarines and the Omnibus made it sound like anyway.

 

 

No, regardless of how a few books portray it, no company is assigned to any ship, and vice versa. The Vae Victus, for example, isn't a mainline ship if another could take its place. It just so happens that, for a couple years, the 4th Company is ferried by her to their various destinations. As well, the stories involving the 2nd Company and Valin's Revenge only span a short amount of time; it's quite likely that were simply aboard that particular ship when they responded to an event, then another, then another. Circumstance, rather than design.

 

Every crew is fiercely loyal to the Ultramarines Chapter, and will do anything necessary to protect their ship and their cargo. They don't have to "adjust" to different companies because they are "accustomed" to the entire Chapter. They don't have much interaction with each other at any rate, so it doesn't much matter.

 

Honestly, many of these questions can be answered by reading the Naval Operations thread. While the names are chapter-specific, the various topics are generalized and apply to nearly all chapters. 

 

 

 

Also Lexi is not always wrong, and almost always cites the source.

 

 

Sorry, but my experience is the opposite. People are constantly referencing Lexi, and I'm constantly finding faults with them, and few sources. But that's neither here nor there; the main idea is that it's about as reliable as wikipedia (which is to say, not at all).

Edited November 4, 2017 by Seahawk