Summary Execution faq change and Index Commisars

[Gentlemanloser]

The recent Astra Militarum FAQ has amended the Codex Commisars Summary Execution ability.

 

The Index version of the Commisar has different options to the Codex version (power axes i belive), so it should still be possible to use an 'Index' datasheet Commisar instead of the Codex version (if you purchase a Power Axe).

 

As the AM FAQ specifies the codex pages where the summary Execution ability is reworded, the abilities on the Index Commisar datasheet should be unchanged.

 

Letting you use an Index Commisar with an unchanged Summary Execution rule.

 

While feeling like a complete oversight, this should be an available option, shouldn't it?

[HenricusTyranicus]

Um.....no, it shouldn't. 

No more than saying that taking a 50 man conscript squad and then claiming it doesn't have to roll to see if it follows orders works. That's just abuse of something GW put out to help accommodate devoted hobbyists.  

[Cryptix]

Until an FAQ comes out for the index correcting it, its technically legal because of that one WHC post but don't expect people to believe you about it, and don't be surprised if you and others thinking like you ruin it for everyone else by saying you can't use indices anymore.

[Ciler]

The recent Astra Militarum FAQ has amended the Codex Commisars Summary Execution ability.

 

The Index version of the Commisar has different options to the Codex version (power axes i belive), so it should still be possible to use an 'Index' datasheet Commisar instead of the Codex version (if you purchase a Power Axe).

 

As the AM FAQ specifies the codex pages where the summary Execution ability is reworded, the abilities on the Index Commisar datasheet should be unchanged.

 

Letting you use an Index Commisar with an unchanged Summary Execution rule.

 

While feeling like a complete oversight, this should be an available option, shouldn't it?

I have been hoping for this to happen for a while. Let's see how this pans out

[Gentlemanloser]

Why not Henricus?

 

The index Conscript datasheet has different options to the Codex one, doesn't it?

 

Are we only allowed to use Index datasheets if its weapon options that are different?

[Gentlemanloser]

The FAQ in question states to use the index rules with the most recent point costs.

 

Which might be the codex. Might not. I'll go hunt it out for completion.

 

Here you are;

 

There are a few options that are missing in the codex that appear in the index: why is that? Does that mean I can’t use these models in my army anymore?

 

While the indexes are designed to cover a long history of miniatures, the codexes are designed to give you rules for the current Warhammer 40,000 range. There are a few options in the indexes for some Characters and vehicles that are no longer represented in the Citadel range – certain Dreadnought weapons that don’t come in the box, or some characters on bikes, for example.

 

Don’t worry though, you can still use all of these in your games if you have these older models. In these instances, use the datasheet from the index, and the most recent points published for that model and its weapons (currently, also in the index).

 

They still gain all the army wide-bonuses for things like Chapter Tactics and can use Space Marines Stratagems and the like, so such venerable heroes still fit right in with the rest of your army.

 

 

So you use the index datasheet. Which included both no psychic power choice for GK dreads and an un nerfed Summary Execution for AM Commisars.

[Dam13n]

All off-topic posts removed. Keep it centred on the topic as described in the title please. Otherwise this topic will find itself subject to incineration via melta blast to the unmentionables.

[Gentlemanloser]

Want me to repost the WC faq in question on using index datasheets and most up to date points costs (regardless of source)?

[Dam13n]

I just unhid that post, as it wasn't off topic (and I was still processing my action in thread).

[Claws and Effect]

I'm going to say no on this one.

 

Giving a Commissar a power axe so you can loophole around a rule change that was clearly intended to curb abuse of the way rules interact is some pretty serious rules lawyering, in my opinion.

 

I wouldn't be cool with one dude doing that to keep his Conscripts fearless while everyone else abided by the rule change.

[Gentlemanloser]

Cool. But there's no RAW against this.

 

You simply don't like that the option exists.

[Claws and Effect]

I'll answer your question with a question.

 

Say GW gives Sternguard Sergeants the ability to grant the squad he leads 1 reroll per turn.

 

If your Setgeant has a thunder hammer, does he have that ability?

[Ciler]

As per above reasoning, no.

But this is precisely why we are having this discussion. As long as wargear was the only variable between index and codex, almost everyone was happy with the pick and choose option (because picking in the index universally made everyone more powerful since everyone had more or better options in the index). Oddly enough, now that it's not just wargear but also special abilities, and that it's not relevant to everyone, people are a lot less hot on the concept.

 

This is a very real and very serious problem, one that I was criticised for anticipating on this very board a few months ago.

[Gentlemanloser]

We already explored that tangent with GK dreads.

 

But the posts have been hidden as off topic.

 

So i can't answer you.

[Claws and Effect]

I thought it was already established that if the NAME on noth datasheets is the same you use the most recent rules.

 

Unless I'm greatly mistaken, the NAME on both datasheets is "Commissar"

[Gentlemanloser]

Please see the faq i copied above.

 

You use the index datasheet. In its entirety.

 

"Use the datasheet from the index".

[Claws and Effect]

Eh.

 

I wouldn't start sticking axes on yoir Commissars just yet.

 

I'd wager a moderate sum of money this isn't going to fly.

[Roderikum]

IMHO, we must adhere to the index in the cases in which the models we have don't have entry, or equipment options, in their codex.

I think It is clear in this WHC article (https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/07/05/codexes-your-questions-answered-july-5gw-homepage-post-2/). My personal interpretation is that we must adhere to the codex when It comes to point costs, special abilities and stats. And, in the case that the model has no codex entry or the modeled weapon option covered in It, go to the index.

In the commisair's case I think we should adhere to the options avilable un the codex (unless the model's equipment is not reflected in the Codex datasheet), but it's special abilities are drawn from the most recent version of the rules (in this case, the faqs' one).

[Gentlemanloser]

I seriously doubt GW will FAQ the indexes.

 

At best they might address this in chapter approved at xmas.

 

Until then...

 

Edit. Roderikun, i nice house rule. But that isn't using the index datasheet.

[Claws and Effect]

Sorry, Gentlemanloser, but in my opinion that is blatantly abusing a loophole to get around a rule you don't like. 

 

It has nothing to do with me not liking its existence, because I don't believe it should exist. Whether I like it or not is irrelevant. And if GW hadn't overlooked it, I'm very confident it wouldn't exist. 

 

All they have to do is state that any rules changes that affect units in the Codex carry over to their Index counterpart. 

 

Personally, I think the notion that changing a model's weapon completely changes that model's rules is patently ridiculous. A Commissar is a Commissar whether he has a power sword, a power axe, or a freaking lascannon. The Index doesn't have separate entries for "Commissar" and "Commissar with Power Axe", which would be the only way I'd agree that it changes the rules. 

 

If I played Guard, I'd likely just use any Commissars I had to support regular Infantry Squads. If it loses 3 guys, you fail on a 5 or 6. Commissar shoots a guy and you have a 66% chance of just losing that one guy instead of 3. Commissars weren't made useless, they were just made so you can't put 180 guys on the table that will never break and run for any reason for hardly any points. 

 

It's hard to call something balanced when you can pile up dudes in front of your tanks and ensure that your enemy has to kill every last one of them before they can do anything to the tanks. Especially obnoxious when said enemy is a melee heavy army (such as anything Khorne is involved with). 

 

The only way Commissars were made useless is if babysitting Conscripts was the only thing you could possibly do with them. 

[Gentlemanloser]

I don't play IG and don't personally care about summary Execution. In fact i support the nerf.

 

So please drop the personal line. It has no place in the OR.

 

Until you can show some rule, anywhere, (and there is another community faq that can cause a problem for the one i linked) that counters the "use the index datasheet" we are told this is the permitted rpute we must use.

 

And to not use the original index version of summary Execution, for what ever intent you deem correct, is a house rule.

 

And although we can't discuss the ramifications in this thread, your stance has a massive wide reaching effect on the use of index datasheets for any army with a codex.

 

One you might not want to give precedence to...

[Dam13n]

Strike 2!

 

I suggest that it might be a good idea to contact GW about this. They've been a lot better with FAQs this edition, and this would be a pretty easy fix.

[Ciler]

I seriously doubt GW will FAQ the indexes.

And yet, index have actually been FaQed and errataed. Index chaos, for instance, is at no less than version 1.3 currently, with for instance a very recent correction (sept 26) to the weapon type of the thermal cannon. That's an index update one month after the release of the corresponding codex (end of august).

 

And so, it is very possible that index imperium 2 will be errataed, but until it is, it can only be assumed that the variation in rules for commissars is intended.

[Gentlemanloser]

Oh cheers! Missed that the index was faqed.

[Schlitzaf]

I think we are looking at two instrintically related issues.

1) Are The Codex DataSheets intended to overwrite Index one’s?

2) What is the purpose of allowing the Index DataSheets?

 

Then the third issue that ties all this together is the following.

3) Are the Codexes DataSheets functionally abridged versions of the Index DataSheets or are they functionally different DataSheets?

 

Now we can ignore allowance of discontinued DataSheets (Ponies and Biker Characters) as they are not overwritten by their Codex Variant DataSheet. Which brings up to the following series of units;

Conscripts (20-30, 4+ Orders)

GK Apothacaries

Commissars

Techmarines

Razorbacks

Dreadnoughts

———

As unite who differ from the Codex Variant and the Index Variant. However I think there is a more interesting question going on here then those units.

 

Techpriests

Crusaders

 

Why Techpriests and Crusaders? Well they had some very important functional changes. Techpriests become HQ, lose the Militarum Keyword, and can heal Knights with the release of the actual Mechanicus Codex.

 

Did the Index Techpriests get replaced and for those two months gain the above? If you used that variant of the unit now with the Militarum do you lose doctrines? (I don’t have my book on my person perhaps they are the same).

 

Or do the Mechanicus Techpriests and Militarum Techpriest represent functionally two different datasheets. And is the Index DataSheet still legal if a Mechanicus player wanted to take a Tech Priest in Elite? Could that TechPriest heal Knights?

 

The Crusader comparison is brought up because of two aspects. One they gained the Astra Militarum Keyword. Two they now have Act of Faith into their rules. First is the question of Act of Faith and Stacking. But that is another thread.

 

Let us instead imagine the following, if I take a Vangaurd Detachment with Uriah Jacobus, 3 Crusaders Squads. Do I have unlock Astra Militarum Strategems? The answer would be presumably yes. Everything has the Astra Militarum Keyword.

 

Now I include 1 Chimera and two Infantry Squads with Tallern Keyword. Can I place Jacobus and two Crusader Squads into the Chimera and Tallen Squads using the Tallern Strategem?

 

Do the Tallern Units not gain their Doctrine? Why do I ask this. Because (Someone correct me once if I am wrong, no book to double check) Uriah is not a Priest in name but Priest in Keyword. The Doctrine clause lists Priest and Crusader Units as Units that do not prevent Doctrine loss.

 

The larger point I am asking, is better shown with the techpriest example, is that if we assume that Indexes Datasheets are not replaced atleast in part or function by the Codex. Are Variant Units actually the same “Unit” or are they actually? And do affect your ability to take doctrines etc.