Militarum Tempestus in 8th

[TheShredder]

I've got a couple of questions regarding Scions:

 

1) How valuable do you think their Doctrine is? As in, how important is it to have them in their own dedicated detachment?

 

2) Do you think it's worth having multiple Tempestor Primes in order to have multiple Scion Command Squads, or is it better to just have some ordinary Scion squads?

 

3) If you're using Scions in a non-Scion detachment, do you think the Prime is worth it at all? 

[Halfpint100]

1) a bonus for plasma guns

2) I run normal squads for obsec

3) orders are useful. Not nessecary though

[Tirak]

1) a bonus for plasma guns

2) I run normal squads for obsec

3) orders are useful. Not nessecary though

 

So you may want to consider splitting your Scions into a small detachment for precision kill team work and play Elysians as your normal troops. You'll maintain deepstriking objective secure while paying half, and you'll have access to heavy weapons teams and certain vehicles which can really help deal with all comers.

[TheShredder]

Hmm, I hadn't considered the ObjSec part. That's a really good point.

[Altasmurf]

1.Honestly the doctrine, and warlord trait are pretty useless. However their order is pretty solid.

 

2. I run a mix where the command squads are single target killers. Usually 4 melta or 4 plasma. I then run my troop squads as more of a general unit, either 2 hsvg or 2 plasma guns.

 

3.Do you mean the commander or the taurox? Either way

 

Tempestus primes are medicire themselves but they are a force multiplier and the only way to deep strike buffs with you scions. So I consider them pretty important as they help the alpha strike capabilities of the scions.

 

For the tank, nope. Normal guard has so many better fire power platforms, and drop striking is much better in a mixed guard army.

[Vel'Cona]

 

1) How valuable do you think their Doctrine is? As in, how important is it to have them in their own dedicated detachment?

 

2) Do you think it's worth having multiple Tempestor Primes in order to have multiple Scion Command Squads, or is it better to just have some ordinary Scion squads?

 

3) If you're using Scions in a non-Scion detachment, do you think the Prime is worth it at all? 

 

1) Not very.  With the price hike to the key weapons you'd want to use this on (PG, MG) and its low proc chance, I'd say splashing MT into other Regiments is probably more useful

 

2) I'd say not.  Orders are nice but not required to get Scions to do stuff, and I'm not a huge fan of expensive suicide MTCS

 

3) The Taurox Prime was useful until GW overbuffed the Leman Russ; now it's just a very pricey transport that you don't really need (since Tempestus Scions et al can just Deep Strike).  They look cool, though!

[Guardsman Bob]

I've got a couple of questions regarding Scions:

 

1) How valuable do you think their Doctrine is? As in, how important is it to have them in their own dedicated detachment?

 

In regular army lists I’m fielding them as component Battalion for the extra Command Points and linking detachments to the fluff. The Docterine is just icing.

 

2) Do you think it's worth having multiple Tempestor Primes in order to have multiple Scion Command Squads, or is it better to just have some ordinary Scion squads?

 

Most of my assembled models are the old metal ST:TNG rips. Not enough special weapons to field any Command squads. After enough plastics are ready the approach will depend on what the main force needs to have supplemented. Since I tend to field Infantry Squad heavy armies odds are I’ll stick with suicide Command Squads. If there was a senario where objectives were particularly important or I went Armored Company then ten man Scion Squads would probably be preferenced.

 

3) If you're using Scions in a non-Scion detachment, do you think the Prime is worth it at all?

 

Not at all outside an all MT army. I have three Basilisks and three Hellhounds for about the same price who hit harder (on the relevant jobs) and are tougher. Integrated MT and Planetary Regiments are just better in all situations.

 

All ground Astra Millitarium transports are dog poop. It just kills me how I have to find hard justifications to bring any.

[Tirak]

 

All ground Astra Millitarium transports are dog poop. It just kills me how I have to find hard justifications to bring any.

 

 

Sad but true. Tallarn can only barely make theirs work and there are better options. Without the ability to shoot their turret reliably, slow onload/offload and no command capability without burning a CP, they're 40-50 points too expensive for what they do. They're crappy Sentinels, minus the Sentinel's ability to scout move.

[Withershadow]

40-50 points discount would be pretty ridiculous, I think. 

 

For example, a Gryphonne-pattern Chimera with 3 heavy bolters is 99 points (100 even with an autocannon).  A heavy weapon squad with 3 heavy bolters is 42 points.  Are you saying the Chimera should be 0 points?  In an edition where no basic transport is spectacular (so far), and considering the ridiculous cost of drop pods, I have a hard time complaining about our options when taken with the Tallarn doctrine.  I like it for my Engineers, it can cover 12"+D6" on the first turn and pop smoke, giving the engineers a potential ~3" disembark + ~1" base + 6" advance + 12" shotguns on subsequent turns. That's a 35-40" threat range.  And yes, I could take the engineers on foot and order them to MMM to cover that much ground, but they are a high priority target. 

 

All the comparisons to Scout Sentinels aside, it's T7 W10, -1 to hit due to smoke, and ideally in cover for a 2+ save.  The firepower needed to kill that is the same needed to kill a Russ.  I would much rather they kill a transport that already did its job rather than the Russ.  If they do let it live, it's a nice speed bump that has a heavy bolter squad's firepower on the move.

 

I need to get some test games in with the heavy flamer Chimeras, perhaps with the Catachan doctrine.

[BurntheHeretic]

I see this discussion has taken a turn away from the Militarum Tempestus, but Withershadow,

 

 

I need to get some test games in with the heavy flamer Chimeras, perhaps with the Catachan doctrine.

 

 

l´m curious about your experiences with the Catachan heavy flamer Chimeras. Both this one and the Tallarn Triple H.B Chimeras seem pretty useful to me. 

[Withershadow]

I don't have any, which is why I need to get some test games in!

 

To tie this back to Tempestus, if you have a detachment of Stormtroopers, each entry opens up a transport slot, which can receive the benefit of a different regimental doctrine.  So while Tempestus themselves do not need transports, they can facilitate Chimeras with appropriate regimental bonuses (the two you mentioned mainly) for other elements of your army.

[Tirak]

40-50 points discount would be pretty ridiculous, I think. 

 

For example, a Gryphonne-pattern Chimera with 3 heavy bolters is 99 points (100 even with an autocannon).  A heavy weapon squad with 3 heavy bolters is 42 points.  Are you saying the Chimera should be 0 points?  In an edition where no basic transport is spectacular (so far), and considering the ridiculous cost of drop pods, I have a hard time complaining about our options when taken with the Tallarn doctrine.  I like it for my Engineers, it can cover 12"+D6" on the first turn and pop smoke, giving the engineers a potential ~3" disembark + ~1" base + 6" advance + 12" shotguns on subsequent turns. That's a 35-40" threat range.  And yes, I could take the engineers on foot and order them to MMM to cover that much ground, but they are a high priority target. 

 

All the comparisons to Scout Sentinels aside, it's T7 W10, -1 to hit due to smoke, and ideally in cover for a 2+ save.  The firepower needed to kill that is the same needed to kill a Russ.  I would much rather they kill a transport that already did its job rather than the Russ.  If they do let it live, it's a nice speed bump that has a heavy bolter squad's firepower on the move.

 

I need to get some test games in with the heavy flamer Chimeras, perhaps with the Catachan doctrine.

 

 

A Chimera should go back to being 60 points. Back when it was a command vehicle, could shoot out the back hatch with a heavy weapon and unloaded the squad after getting zoomed forward by the vehicle. It's now 93 points for a minimalist chimera with none of the above abilities.

[Withershadow]

Is that before guns?  A 15-point discount is not unreasonable.  Pods should probably be discounted 30.

[Tirak]

Is that before guns?  A 15-point discount is not unreasonable.  Pods should probably be discounted 30.

 

No, a stock Chimera with Multilaser and Heavy Bolter rings in at 93 points, that's as cheap as you can make it. It's 33 points more expensive than the old Chimera yet does significantly less.

 

And to put that into an 8th edition perspective, a Space Marine Razorback, with the very same T7 W10, smoke launchers available and the very same armor save, has a BS of 3 and an Assault Cannon for 100 points. 7 points nets you an Heavy 12 S6 AP-1 D1 weapon.

[Withershadow]

I meant your suggestion of 60 points for a Chimera, reducing it from its current base cost of 75.

[Tirak]

Still doesn't make it competitive. In all reality the Chimera needs a point drop, Command Vehicle back and the multilaser needs to change to an assault weapon. It's meant for suppressive fire and has no AP so it's fluffy, and can only dish out 3 shots. at 78 points a total package, with those changes it's alright, because it once again becomes a command APC that's useful for supporting squads, ideally you'd be spending 65-70 points for it including guns, but that just won't happen.

[Altasmurf]

Hey Gents,

 

While I agree that the chimera is in need of some changes, I'd really like to bring this back to the glory boys.

 

Has anybody else played a "Pure" Tempestus army in 8th? How have you done.

 

Also I tried 1 Master of Ordinance just for a bit of reach out and touch somthing, it helped to take out 3 hellblasters. But I'm considering using 3 for an alpha strike utilizing the Cadian doctrine, and if needed could utilize the Cadian stratagem. 90 Bolt pistols for what could amount to not much, or dead rear guard artillery piece.

 

What are B&C's thoughts

[Imperator Deus]

What do you guys think of taking 10-man Tempestus squads to unlock 4 Special Weapons per squad? It gets expensive fast, but it could mean a lot of firepower. Are 10-man squads better if you have only a single squad in your army? What if you have multiple squads, or even an entire Battalion, is it better to take 5-man MSU?

[Adeptus]

I'm working on a small Tempestus detachment to run as Inquisitorial Stormtroopers. Is it feasible to include a Chimera as a transport? I hate the look of the Taurox. I've already got a Valkyrie done, so that will be one transport, and I've got a Chimera assembled and undercoated and wondering if it's worth adding it to the painting queue just yet. Will including it void the Scions doctrine?

[Halfpint100]

I usually run 5 man squads with plasma pistol and 2 special weps (plasma/ melta). cheap and disposable 

 

Unfortunately the chimera would void the scion regiment tactic.  

[Adeptus]

Hmm. I'll just have to tack the Chimera onto the "Imperium" detachment that includes my Inquisitor and other more esoteric units. There's no rule preventing the Scions from riding in the Chimera is there?

 

Edit: the Valk doesn't void the regimental tactics does it?

Edited November 1, 2017 by Adeptus

[Halfpint100]

Hmm. I'll just have to tack the Chimera onto the "Imperium" detachment that includes my Inquisitor and other more esoteric units. There's no rule preventing the Scions from riding in the Chimera is there?

 

Edit: the Valk doesn't void the regimental tactics does it?

 

The valk is auronautica imperia. Which doesn't affect regimental tactics. Since the valk can never gain a regiment. So you are safe using it! 

 

No, the chimera transports all astra militarium infantry units. So you can still use it

[Adeptus]

Well, that's a plus I suppose. It's a bit annoying to have to play these sorts of cup and shell games if I want to keep their regimental tactics though. I suppose I could cave in and get a Taurox.

[duz_]

Well, that's a plus I suppose. It's a bit annoying to have to play these sorts of cup and shell games if I want to keep their regimental tactics though. I suppose I could cave in and get a Taurox.

Do it! They're a great kit from a modelling and aesthetic PoV. :D

[Major_Gilbear]

Or just put Chimera tracks on a Taurox, and run it as Taurox? Afterall, nothing wrong with some conversion work to make a model the way you want it. :)