Have anybody have succes with MSU lists this edition?

[Mik-l]

I was wondering how viable a CSM MSU list would be and what legions to choose. How have you guys been playing it?

 

Many of the good strategems seem to favor large units, where many more models are effected for the same cost of command points. VotLW, Endless Cacophony, Tide of traitoris, Fury of Khorne, Excess of violence, In Midnight clad, Forward operatives.

 

A for legion traits, the leadership effects of Black Legion and Word bearers become inconsequential, as small units are less affected by morale.

Alpha legion, World eaters, emperors children, iron warriors and renegades are about the same.

Night Lords seem to gain the most, as their trait can stack three times.

 

Some of the benefits from playing MSU are:

- Easier acces to command points, as detachments are easier to fill.

- less concern fro morale

- Easier to get cover/more flexible movement

 

I was thinking about using many "small" multi-wound models like Chaos Spawns. By providing so many small but stille threatening units, the opponent would have to split his fire. This way he would risk not killing the Spawn, leaving it able to charge next turn or to over-commit and waste shots a unit that is already dead.

Likewise, small inexpensive units of Night Lords (possibly with Icon of despair) who would not otherwise be very threatening, can become so. Even when reduced to only 1-2 models, they are threatening because of their leadership reducing abilities they can threaten the units around them in the morale phase.

[the jeske]

chaos msu works well, probably one of the best ways to play chaos in 8th. it is just not csm msu.

[Panzer]

MSU is still the way to go unless you have very good reasons to use a big unit. Nothing changed about that. ^^

[Mik-l]

I'm just building my first army, so never played chaos in the previous editions. Are any of you guys playing melee or Night Lords MSU armies?

[Panzer]

I'm not playing Night Lords at all but I'm sure the people in the Night Lords are happy to help you. ;)

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/285762-the-murderers-call/?p=3572175

[GreaterChickenofTzeentch]

MSU is the way unless you have a compelling reason not to do so.

 

I personally run MSU in my armies, except for one or two large units that then get layered with buffs so that those are used efficiently.

 

In my Thousand Sons, for example, everything is MSU or single models, except one unit of 20 Rubrics that gets Prescience, Warp Time, and Weaver of Fates, with a Daemon Prince and Ahriman nearby for re-rolls on Invulns and To-Hits.

 

My Night Lords use a single 10 man unit of Warp Talons with a Sorcerer, and then MSU Raptors, Terminators, and Oblits

 

The same principle applies when Alpha Legion use a 15 or 20 man Berzerker Squad with Warp Time and Forward Operatives.

 

On the other hand, my Iron Warriors are entirely MSU.

 

Bottom line: If you need to increase the value you get out of special effects, then adjust the size of one or two key units to make that possible, then go with MSU.

[Khornestar]

I prefer MSU myself. Often there are units that will give you a “bulk discount” when playing power level games, but no such discount exists AFAIK when using points (though I’ve never bothered to actually check :P).

[Panzer]

I prefer MSU myself. Often there are units that will give you a “bulk discount” when playing power level games, but no such discount exists AFAIK when using points (though I’ve never bothered to actually check ).

Since you pay per model and per gear...no there is no discount for points.

[TURBULENCE]

Keep in mind mortal wounds hit MSU a lot harder, so if facing smite spam or death guard, keep that in mind. I play DG over generic chaos, and honestly it's been pretty easy to punish MSU builds with laying on the MW.

[Khornestar]

 

I prefer MSU myself. Often there are units that will give you a “bulk discount” when playing power level games, but no such discount exists AFAIK when using points (though I’ve never bothered to actually check ).

Since you pay per model and per gear...no there is no discount for points.

 

 

I get ya, but I figured maybe if I divided the total points by 5 and accounted for the cost of the unit champ somehow perhaps it would break down to cheaper than, say, 16 points per berzerker.

 

Oh, wait a minute, that's totally not how 8th works at all. I forgot, you just consult the table and multiply.

 

The "down side" is the extra cost of an Icon of Wrath per MSU squad, which is a must IMO for 'zerks but perhaps not so when considering other units.

 

Keep in mind mortal wounds hit MSU a lot harder, so if facing smite spam or death guard, keep that in mind. I play DG over generic chaos, and honestly it's been pretty easy to punish MSU builds with laying on the MW.

 

True, but at least there's morale "immunity" for whatever that's worth.

[Panzer]

 

 

I prefer MSU myself. Often there are units that will give you a “bulk discount” when playing power level games, but no such discount exists AFAIK when using points (though I’ve never bothered to actually check ).

Since you pay per model and per gear...no there is no discount for points.

 

 

I get ya, but I figured maybe if I divided the total points by 5 and accounted for the cost of the unit champ somehow perhaps it would break down to cheaper than, say, 16 points per berzerker.

 

Oh, wait a minute, that's totally not how 8th works at all. I forgot, you just consult the table and multiply.

 

The "down side" is the extra cost of an Icon of Wrath per MSU squad, which is a must IMO for 'zerks but perhaps not so when considering other units.

 

Unit champs are free.

But yeah unit upgrades would raise the cost of MSU squads obviously since they are basically unit wide buffs which are more efficient on larger units. Like psychic powers and stratagems as well.

[oreaper84]

Keep in mind mortal wounds hit MSU a lot harder, so if facing smite spam or death guard, keep that in mind. I play DG over generic chaos, and honestly it's been pretty easy to punish MSU builds with laying on the MW.

 

Yeah DG have prob the most punishing options for anti MSU in the game right now, even so with proper spacing its not so bad.

 

On the OP:

 

I prefer MSU hands down for my AL Brigade. Its one of the only ways i can get a brigade.With deployment and stratagem flexibility MSU provides us with one of the best aspects in 8th.....redundancy. Due to the number of ways to add heavy and special weapons to squads in bulk.....extra bodies usually end up being fodder. More squads usually equates to more special/heavy weapons and multi units allows you to make sure at least something you have gets where it needs to be.

 

As for strategems....id argue that MSU does things like Cacophony/forward Ops/TideofT better because it makes your opponent unable to deal with all threats as opposed to focus firing 1-2 squads. example....i run multiple chosen squads w/ combi and fill rhinos w/ 2 5 man sqauds. The enemy is hard pressed to deal with them all, and what makes it is def getting VOLW and EC. another example...i have literally won games when my 10 man cultists squad teleported across the field to cap an objective, 10 dudes an small bases isn't that big of a footprint.

 

Granted with all this there usually isnt a hay-maker 1 swing knock out punch...but its def a fun and viable way to play.

[Iron_Within]

I'm wondering if there is utility in 2 MSU CSM units with a Combi and special weapon each in a Rhino, same price as a Special weapon havoc squad in a Rhino with Obsec and can split up

[TURBULENCE]

True, unit placement does help counter mortal wounds from DG, harder on dense terrain boards like I tend to play on, bottlenecks are the enemy of MSU that being said even I MSU with everything besides poxwalkers.