Making Terminators/elite armies work?

[Iron_Within]

Can Terminators and elite armies more generally work in 8th? I have 15 terminators I'd like to play in a 2k game if there a way of making them work? I'd run them as Iron Warriors. I'm tempted to run a very elite force of Terminators and Khorne Berzerkers

[Panzer]

It can work in casual games but it won't be a really competetive army. At least we have the advantage of double shooting with Slaanesh Terminators compared to loyalist ones.

[GreyCrow]

What sfpanzer said!

 

If you only have Elites, your army with have a very cost per model and low board presence, which means you will be very sensitive to 3 things :

- High volume of fire

- Little board control opportunities

- High quality weaponry shooting at you

 

If you want Elite units to be the star of your army, you will need chaff (aka Cultists/Daemons) as a filler, just to make sure that as a system your army cam survive.

 

Example, at 2000 points, you can have :

- 20 Chaos Terminators with combi plasmas

- 160 Cultists

- The HQs you need for the Batallion

 

That will give you a lot of board presence and some star units for damage.

 

If you go 20 Terminators and 40 Berserkers for example, that can work too but you're going for a very tough gambit in making sure your army doesn't get wiped by shooting early on.

[Iron_Within]

I've got 29 berzerkers+ hq units. 15 terminator in various load outs with lord/sorc backup.

A bucket of cultists (100+ easy)

Various heavy support choices

My thoughts are currently the terminator ds with obliterators and hqs while berzerkers with apostle etc race forward in rhinos while a lord with cold and bitter warlord trait sits with 90 or so cultists rushing adjectives, points left go to heavy units like predators and the like for fire support

[Res Ipsa Loquitur]

What GreyCrow said. 25 Terminators and a couple of Sorcerors will run you ca. 1600pts and leave you 400pts for 'chaff'.

 

I recommend Daemonettes 'cause they're fast enough to actually screen DSing units. Berzerkers aren't. Don't Summon, it's poo. With Instruments (you want Instruments), 400pts will get you 52 5++ walking cover saves that Always Strike First and 'rend'. 

Edited October 27, 2017 by Res Ipsa Loquitur

[Toomanyprojects]

You need to determine what your guys do best and get them to do it fast.

 

My deathwatch army (eight models for 500 points, i do like em elite) tabled a genestealer army (outnumbered me six to one and brought a vehicle to boot) at the weekend because I got my kill team to shroud my watch master and effectively act as ablative wounds until he got into combat with the neophytes, where he killed over twenty five models. If I had delayed one charge with my watchmaster I would have handily lost the game but as it was i survived with one wound on my vindicare and two on my watchmaster remaining. Every other model deployed on either side was killed.

 

So in summary, fun and a nice characterful force, but rather tricky to play well and reliant upon more than a little bit of fortune. Choose the guys who you like and figure out what they do best (e.g. Deathshroud kick out an insane amount of wounds in combat, slaaneshi terminators can kick out a stupid amount of firepower, deathwing are a superb middle ground and grey knights have psychic shenanigans going on) and get them doing it ASAP in the game. They are expensive but the more esoteric abilities of elite units should allow them to make their points back if they can use those abilities.

[Panzer]

The main problem with Terminators is that they aren't THAT hard to get rid of compared to regular Marines and every model lost hurts you a lot plus they suck at holding objectives. You need two things for holding objectives: numbers and/or ObSec. Terminators have neither.

On top of that they have a very low amount of attacks/shots for their points so if you get swarmed you can pretty much forget about using your Terminators again for the rest of the game. From what I've heard/seen the only use of Terminators in more serious games is to drop them in and double-tap plasma. If we could deep strike Plasma any other way, almost nobody would use Terminators either.

 

So yeah, there are a bunch of problems Terminators have you should take care of if you want to play a list focussed around them:

 - How will you score objectives/prevent your opponent from scoring objectives

 - How will you deal with lots of chaff infantry charging your Terminators (Berzerkers can help here...as long as they're still alive and nearby)

 - How will you deal with bubble-wrapped tanks where you can't drop in range for your combi-melta (you gonna want some Devastators or Preds yourself)

 - probably a bunch of other stuff as well

 

I've focussed mainly on Terminators right now but they represent well what problems elite armies have. Imo armies work best if you implement many different elements instead of reducing your options to only a few units. So even when you focus on the more expensive and elite choices, don't forget to include other units as well.

[Aothaine]

I agree with sfPanzer. Elite armies are for fun. If you want to look into competitive play you need two things. Bodies and firepower. Assault armies can work but you have to figure out how to get assaults in turn 1. 

 

But Terminators are not points efficient. They can make decent anvils for Imperials and certain Terminators are pretty good (Death Shroud) but the majority lack everything you want in a unit. They are not that resilient with the amount of ap firepower getting thrown around, they are only T4, they have very few attacks, chaos doesn't have access to beacons. There are other choices that fulfill the role of anti-infantry and anti-tank better.

Edited October 27, 2017 by Aothaine

[GreaterChickenofTzeentch]

With Chaos Terminators you have to realize that they will pop in, make a BIG dent in something and then die to massive focus fire.

 

As a result, you have to set your army up to either split enemy target priority, layer defensive buffs on the termies, or just concentrate on further increasing the damage they do before they die to high AP or weight of dice.

 

I've seen people have success by using Warptime, then Combi-weapons of choice, then charging a different target with Power Swords and Veterans of the Long War. Between that and the huge fire sink it will create (because the opponent CAN'T ignore that level of threat), you should get your money's worth out of them.

 

Another thing that is helpful is just resigning yourself to dedicating over 1000pts to Alpha Strike and dropping them in with a Termie Sorcerer and 3x3 Oblits. That kind of insane firepower tends to collapse an entire flank....if you don't screw up. ;)

 

There is really no way to get around the fact that for Chaos, elite armies come with a ton of risk.....and that's why competitive folks don't like them. Get cold dice in one critical turn and there goes your whole record.

Edited October 28, 2017 by GreaterChickenofTzeentch

[Panzer]

That being said last week a Obliterator focussed Alpha Legion list placed 2nd at the SoCal Open apprently.

A lord, 1x15 Berzerker, 5x3 Obliterators

+

Changeling, Herald of Nurgle, 3x3 Nurglings

+

Sorcerer, Exalted Champ, 20 Cultists, 2x10 Cultists

 

https://spikeybits.com/2017/10/top-5-army-lists-in-8th-edition-40k-from-socal-open.html

I believe that's as elite as it gets (about 1.5k points in Obliterator, Berzerker and HQs) and as I mentioned before that list as well used its remaining points mostly for objective securing chaff units which results in a modelcount of 75 plus the three Nurgling swarms.

[GreaterChickenofTzeentch]

That being said last week a Obliterator focussed Alpha Legion list placed 2nd at the SoCal Open apprently.

A lord, 1x15 Berzerker, 5x3 Obliterators

+

Changeling, Herald of Nurgle, 3x3 Nurglings

+

Sorcerer, Exalted Champ, 20 Cultists, 2x10 Cultists

 

https://spikeybits.com/2017/10/top-5-army-lists-in-8th-edition-40k-from-socal-open.html

I believe that's as elite as it gets (about 1.5k points in Obliterator, Berzerker and HQs) and as I mentioned before that list as well used its remaining points mostly for objective securing chaff units which results in a modelcount of 75 plus the three Nurgling swarms.

Were the Obliterators Tzeentch? If so, it looks like they took the "layered defensive buffs" approach, because if they were Tzeentch and were dropped near the Changeling and outside 12 in.....the enemy would be -2 to hit them. Quite rough when engaging a pain train like Oblits.

 

There was also a pretty nasty priority split given that Warptime Berserkers would be charging on Turn 1 from between 4 and 7 inches away.

 

A variant of this list uses one less squad of Obliterators and sacrifices a few other things (including a couple command points) for 15 Tzeentch Possessed, also near the Changeling....so you have 15 Possessed, 15 Berserkers, and 6 Oblits in your face. Not kind.

 

Additional note regarding elite armies: The guy who WOULD have won 2nd place was running Magnus, Mortarion, a Knight with 2x Avenger, and the rest made up of chaff Daemons and Plague Drones. However, he forgot to pay for the compulsory secondary weapons on his Knight (2 Heavy Flamers and a Heavy Stubber) and apparently forgot some other stuff too (which I don't remember, unfortunately). Tried to throw it together last minute in an army builder program from what I understand.

 

Excel and simple math are your friends.

[Mr. Funktastic]

What is everyone's opinions on Chaos Terminators vs Obliterators? Both units seem good this edition but which one seems more worth taking? Some points for both: 

Terminators: 
-More reliably consistent shooting with Combi-Plasmas 
-Potent in CC 
-Versatile weapon loadouts 
-More models in the unit 
-More total wounds in the unit 
-Model losses hurt less 

Obliterators: 
-Daemon keyword 
-Higher potential damage output 
-No chance of killing themselves from shooting 
-More wounds per model 
-Cheaper as a unit 
-12 shots vs 10 assuming rapid fire range for the Terminators