Presenting Targets to Your Opponent

[shakedown47]

I thought about putting this in the helbrute thread since it's run a bit off-topic lately and has begun to address my specific concern here, but I figured a new thread to discuss target presentation in general could be helpful.

 

I'm trying to pick between 2 Las/ML Helbrutes or 2 Plagueburst Crawlers. I think the Helbrutes edge out the Crawlers from a damage standpoint, especially with the use of CPs, but obviously the Crawler's survivability is off the charts compared to the walkers. There's also the nice bonus of Disgustingly Resilient and high-powered plague weapons to help with tactical objectives.

 

So here's my dilemma. The forward elements of my army will be a DP, a landraider ferrying deathshrouds with a LoC, a bloat drone, and a rhino with 7 plague marines. If I took 2 helbrutes, they would likely be walking up as often as was prudent and IMO they make juicy targets since as few as 2 or 3 special weapon hits can take them out. In their first turn it seems to me that people like to alpha and eliminate an entire unit, any unit, if possible, and of all of those forward elements the helbrutes will go down the easiest. Swap them out for Crawlers, one played forward and one held back, and suddenly the other units moving up the board become much more enticing as alpha targets.

 

In your experience does it matter? Will a savvy opponent just focus down the LR or Rhino no matter what, or does putting a high-damage, semi squishy unit out front help to attract enemy fire?

[MoGuy]

Playing Dark Eldar - aka Paper Boats the Faction - you have to learn target saturation and presenting targets in order to stand a chance. 

 

The saying goes "One is none, two is one and three is some". If you only have one Helbrute or one Crawler they will be destroyed easily. So if you field those units, always take at least two so that maybe one of them will live long enough to see Turn 2+.

 

However, as you have correctly noticed, you can present your opponent a target. We like to call those targets distraction carnifexes - somewhat dangerous bulletmagnets that will annoy or hurt the enemy if he doesn't focus them down. 

 

Now for the Death Guard you can use the Bloat Drones as those DCs. They are pretty tough and quicker than the rest of our army so you can shove them in your opponent's face Turn 1. This will make most people feel threatened. "Oh no, those fast Drones with their Fleshmowers/Flamers etc. are rushing towards me. I have to deal with them now, before they reach me!". That's the response you want. 

 

You have given your opponent a valid target to focus on so the two Helbrutes in your mid-field that are advancing with the rest of the army aren't as "urgent" a problem as the Drones are. 

 

I personally think that the Crawlers are pretty hard to take down in a single turn, unless your opponent directs every cannon he has at them - but then they have soaked up way more than their points worth of shooting so all is good. You can also try and hide the Crawlers behind LOS blocking terrain since their mortar doesn't need LOS.

[Panzer]

Playing Dark Eldar - aka Paper Boats the Faction - you have to learn target saturation and presenting targets in order to stand a chance. 

 

The saying goes "One is none, two is one and three is some". If you only have one Helbrute or one Crawler they will be destroyed easily. So if you field those units, always take at least two so that maybe one of them will live long enough to see Turn 2+.

 

However, as you have correctly noticed, you can present your opponent a target. We like to call those targets distraction carnifexes - somewhat dangerous bulletmagnets that will annoy or hurt the enemy if he doesn't focus them down. 

 

Now for the Death Guard you can use the Bloat Drones as those DCs. They are pretty tough and quicker than the rest of our army so you can shove them in your opponent's face Turn 1. This will make most people feel threatened. "Oh no, those fast Drones with their Fleshmowers/Flamers etc. are rushing towards me. I have to deal with them now, before they reach me!". That's the response you want. 

 

You have given your opponent a valid target to focus on so the two Helbrutes in your mid-field that are advancing with the rest of the army aren't as "urgent" a problem as the Drones are. 

 

I personally think that the Crawlers are pretty hard to take down in a single turn, unless your opponent directs every cannon he has at them - but then they have soaked up way more than their points worth of shooting so all is good. You can also try and hide the Crawlers behind LOS blocking terrain since their mortar doesn't need LOS.

While what you said is right, I want to clarify one thing: a distraction carnifex isn't a unit that does a lot of damage if left ignored. It's a unit that LOOKS like it would do a lot of damage and is either tanky enough to soak up a lot of damage or cheap enough to not care if the enemy tries his best to kill it. It comes from the fact that the Carnifex used to be scary as heck so people learned to focus him and then got nerfed into oblivion but people kept shooting at it based on their experience. ;)

[Aothaine]

When you are looking at units that you want your opponent to focus on you need to understand how that unit is perceived in your meta. Land Raiders are really difficult to kill so I honestly think that most metas will fire at the Rhino and Dreadnoughts. I would think stranding/delaying what ever is in the rhino would be really important and getting the dreadnoughts down would be good. 

 

But I don't think building lists around trying to give your opponent a single target to focus is a good idea. Rather I suggest you focus more on giving your opponent multiple threats. Overwhelm their ability neutralize your ability to do everything against their army. I follow the rule of 3 here. I have at least three units or every model/role that I need to be fulfilled. 

 

If I run a Crawler it is always three Crawlers. If I run Plauge Marines it is always at least three squads. Redundancy is very important. (Learned this from Table Top Tactics)

[SkimaskMohawk]

Gotta ask, what's the point of the LoC

[shakedown47]

Gotta ask, what's the point of the LoC

Coolness of the model, Arch-Contaminator allowing the Deathshrouds to one-shot just about every model in the game, suspension of disbelief that Typhus would just happen to show up to every single minor skirmish.

[SkimaskMohawk]

In game terms though, theres pretty much no reason to take one. A chaos lord in termi armour with arch contaminator is far better and cheaper. Even a tallyman lol

[shakedown47]

In game terms though, theres pretty much no reason to take one. A chaos lord in termi armour with arch contaminator is far better and cheaper. Even a tallyman lol

Ok. I mean, we're probably just getting off topic here. I like the LoC as a unit in its own right, points cost and comparison to other units notwithstanding. If it's a warm body in the Death Guard book and it's not a Cultist, it should have +1 T and Disgustingly Resilient IMO. Why the chaos lord and sorcerer couldn't have been given those rules, with an appropriate points hike over their CSM counterpoint, is a mystery only GW could explain. 

Edited October 27, 2017 by shakedown47

[SkimaskMohawk]

Fair enough if you don't want to use "Non deathguard" units, your hands are pretty tied for the model at that point.

 

As for why they didn't give them any extra rules to make them deathguard? There's no models specifically for nurgle lords or specs in 40k; the DP has one, which is why it gets DR for free.

[Bloody Legionnaire]

I really want to like the plague burst crawler because I think it looks great and it indeed is a great addition to the DG codex; it adds the long range strike capability that we are completely lacking in. 

I just end up feeling like we are so geared towards the midfield with the other 99% of our units. I think the PBC would need a bit of baby sitting.. it seems like infiltration/outflank and deepstriking is prevalent enough in all the other armies that they would have no problem sneaking up and causing the PBC to stop shooting. 

So.. I guess my vote goes for the "Helbrute" but I don't know how much I like them. I'd much rather bring a Leviathan if I'm going to go the "Helbrute" route and it will be my next investment for my DG. 

[Aothaine]

I really want to like the plague burst crawler because I think it looks great and it indeed is a great addition to the DG codex; it adds the long range strike capability that we are completely lacking in.

 

I just end up feeling like we are so geared towards the midfield with the other 99% of our units. I think the PBC would need a bit of baby sitting.. it seems like infiltration/outflank and deepstriking is prevalent enough in all the other armies that they would have no problem sneaking up and causing the PBC to stop shooting.

 

So.. I guess my vote goes for the "Helbrute" but I don't know how much I like them. I'd much rather bring a Leviathan if I'm going to go the "Helbrute" route and it will be my next investment for my DG.

You leave a daemon prince with wings to guard them. It also gives them reroll 1s.

Edited October 30, 2017 by Aothaine

[Bloody Legionnaire]

 

I really want to like the plague burst crawler because I think it looks great and it indeed is a great addition to the DG codex; it adds the long range strike capability that we are completely lacking in.

 

I just end up feeling like we are so geared towards the midfield with the other 99% of our units. I think the PBC would need a bit of baby sitting.. it seems like infiltration/outflank and deepstriking is prevalent enough in all the other armies that they would have no problem sneaking up and causing the PBC to stop shooting.

 

So.. I guess my vote goes for the "Helbrute" but I don't know how much I like them. I'd much rather bring a Leviathan if I'm going to go the "Helbrute" route and it will be my next investment for my DG.

You leave a daemon prince with wings to guard them. It also gives them refill 1s.

 

 

Don't you think that is a waste of a 170 point unit that should be having more of an impact on the table than pulling guard duty for a few units that have decent firepower? 

[Closet Skeleton]

I've resigned myself to taking 3 rhinos full of plague marines and Mortarion to a tournament next week and just hoping I can make Mortarion tank enough stuff to let the rhinos do stuff.

 

I'd love it if the rhinos could provide a distraction from Mortarion but don't have any hopes on that front.

 

There's no models specifically for nurgle lords or specs in 40k; the DP has one, which is why it gets DR for free.

 

DP gets DR because the Chaos Daemons one does.

[shakedown47]

I think you just need to see it as Mortarion being a distraction for the rest of the force. He's a big, ostentatious model that is going to be too hard for any opponent to resist focus firing as soon as possible and that has got to be at least half the point of his design. No one would willingly let him enter melee and he can tank a ridiculous amount of firepower, so putting him out front as your bullet magnet is just using him as intended IMO.

[Bloody Legionnaire]

I've resigned myself to taking 3 rhinos full of plague marines and Mortarion to a tournament next week and just hoping I can make Mortarion tank enough stuff to let the rhinos do stuff.

 

I'd love it if the rhinos could provide a distraction from Mortarion but don't have any hopes on that front.

 

There's no models specifically for nurgle lords or specs in 40k; the DP has one, which is why it gets DR for free.

 

DP gets DR because the Chaos Daemons one does.

Geez, those 3 Rhinos are so many points though :(

 

I thought the only reason to run fast units up the board with Mortarion was the enemy couldn't target Mortarion if there was another closer model visible to the enemy? In those regards I think the Rhino would last long enough to at least get Mortarion into a position to do what he does best. Bloat Drones are probably going to be the more survivable and cheaper options though. 

[SkimaskMohawk]

 

There's no models specifically for nurgle lords or specs in 40k; the DP has one, which is why it gets DR for free.

 

DP gets DR because the Chaos Daemons one does.

 

That uh... literally makes no sense at all.

 

Daemonic Alignment is a rule that serves as a faction wide mechanic for daemons; it gives patron god special rules to a chaos daemon unit, which is why a chaos daemon DP gets disgustingly resilient. Heretic Space Marines have no innate special rules associated with marks; they're all legion based with a smattering of extras for cult units, which is why a nurgle heretic astartes DP doesn't get disgustingly resilient. In the Death Guard book DR is still reserved for cult units; Inexorable Advance is the Legion special rule. Only units that have visibly nurgle aligned models get DR. The Daemon Prince of Nurgle is literally a giant nurgle daemon prince, so it gets DR.

 

If they were going to give DR out because the Daemon entry got it, I'd have to ask why? Why would a Daemon Prince from one specific legion get to be more special than any other nurgle aligned Daemon Princes? Because he was Death Guard? They've all been transformed from a mortal into a literal daemonic shard of the god they worship; one type being a snowflake is contrived at best.

[Closet Skeleton]

Geez, those 3 Rhinos are so many points though

 

I thought the only reason to run fast units up the board with Mortarion was the enemy couldn't target Mortarion if there was another closer model visible to the enemy? In those regards I think the Rhino would last long enough to at least get Mortarion into a position to do what he does best. Bloat Drones are probably going to be the more survivable and cheaper options though. 

 

 

Mortarion has over 10 wounds so he can always be targeted.

 

Rhino with havok launcher and two combi-bolters = 85 points

 

Chaos marine squad with heavy bolter and four bolt guns = 73 points

 

For equivalent fire power 12 points gets you 5 more wounds, 3 more toughness and you're a transport. Chaos marines are not points efficient fire power, but rhinos are quite good for what you pay for them.

[HeresyBeliever]

This weekend I had two Crawlers hiding in cover with a lord behind. Next time I will be charging them up the field as once I got them out of cover they took so much fire power with very little damage they seemed wasted hiding away. 

Getting close and in range of the flamers allowing their use mitigates the -1 to hit on the mortar. 

 

Getting them out in the open will cause people to target them. That way your hell brutes can release the hurt. 

 

I found that they wanted to kill my predator before they looked at the crawlers. 

[Aothaine]

 

 

I really want to like the plague burst crawler because I think it looks great and it indeed is a great addition to the DG codex; it adds the long range strike capability that we are completely lacking in.

 

I just end up feeling like we are so geared towards the midfield with the other 99% of our units. I think the PBC would need a bit of baby sitting.. it seems like infiltration/outflank and deepstriking is prevalent enough in all the other armies that they would have no problem sneaking up and causing the PBC to stop shooting.

 

So.. I guess my vote goes for the "Helbrute" but I don't know how much I like them. I'd much rather bring a Leviathan if I'm going to go the "Helbrute" route and it will be my next investment for my DG.

You leave a daemon prince with wings to guard them. It also gives them refill 1s.

 

 

Don't you think that is a waste of a 170 point unit that should be having more of an impact on the table than pulling guard duty for a few units that have decent firepower? 

 

 

The thing with the DP with wings guarding them makes your opponent have to invest too much of their force to take them out. When you know your opponent is not longer threatening them you can get the DP into melee quite easily as most of our army is focused on mid range. If the opponent has any assaulting units they will usually be with-in the DP's move/assault range if needed.

 

 

This weekend I had two Crawlers hiding in cover with a lord behind. Next time I will be charging them up the field as once I got them out of cover they took so much fire power with very little damage they seemed wasted hiding away. 

Getting close and in range of the flamers allowing their use mitigates the -1 to hit on the mortar. 

 

Getting them out in the open will cause people to target them. That way your hell brutes can release the hurt. 

 

I found that they wanted to kill my predator before they looked at the crawlers. 

 

A few friends and I have been talking about moving them up with the line as well. Problem is that it drops their hit percentage way down. I'm still of the mind that they should be stationary with a winged dp guarding them if my opponent has anything that can threaten them if left alone.