Deathwatch Tournament Play

[Prot]

So at the risk of this getting ugly, let me ask you guys if anyone has been in tournaments or even competitive play with their Deathwatch.

 

I play in some groups that are fairly competitive and I am not using Deathwatch in these scenarios l can’t seem to even get into a list I like.

 

Let me ask before this might get ugly that we all acknowledge (myself included) that DW is an lower level Index army that GE has struggled with since 7th. And they need some help. That being said can we keep the this fairly Deathwatch-centric?

 

I personally always play hardcore with no real big allies. I’m forcing myself to accept that Celestine is probably necessary and perhaps Assassins are also mandatory since our Psykers kind of stink.

 

Let me know how you guys are doing.

[Mobius0288]

I haven't played a tournament myself but I'd say that depends on the restrictions/rules of the tournament. What kind of restrictions are common? Inquisition doesn't seem like a horrible choice of ally to get bodies on the board and still kind of keeps it anti-xenos theme.

 

Looking for like clutch performing kill teams? Universal DW tactics? I haven't found the perfect one yet but I do have some favorites. Blackstars are an obvious include just because of the -1 to hit and transport.

[shanewatts]

I have played in quite a few RTTs with my Deathwatch, and took them to LVO last year.

 

That being said I think running Deathwatch with no other Imperium units is too far from being competitive. Last year in 7th I ran my Deathwatch alongside some Vanilla marines and GK. Right now in a 2k list I am using around 1400pts in Deathwatch and around 600pts of Scions.

 

The biggest problem that I have had with Deathwatch it making it effective. I have found the frag cannon to be one of the greatest weapons we can bring, but with extremely short range on an infantry model. In 7th that wasn't a problem because we had Pods that made it usable. Now in 8th a pod doesn't cut it, which leaves us with having to find other options.

 

The meta in 8th is very different than it was in 7th. Hopefully that is at least some help, if you wanna ask me further questions or want input on what I have tried let me know.

 

*Ironically enough I didn't recognize that it was Prot asking based on his current avatar, so you know most of that already ><*

Edited October 29, 2017 by shanewatts

[spacewatch]

I have been looking for tournament tactics thread for Deathwatch for a long time but haven't found. So far I have read other Adeptus Astartes tournament guides and leth's tactica thread at least ten times. I don't have tournament experiences but I'm interested to try and actually every time I have visited local GW Shop I have been asked to participate because I have DW army which is rarely seen in local events. So this thread is great and very welcome.

 

I have tons of questions to ask about tournament lists and play but first some speculation for background. The two list extremes I see are 20 regular bolter+chainsaw squads plus HQ or three big highly equipped so deadly and survivable kill-teams (Apothecaries included) plus 2-3 HQ's plus 2-3 transports and for objective play maybe some bikers. In practice we do not spam generic teams but choose roles for our units and deploy something between these two extremes. (And yes I intentionally left TAC-Razorback spam out as an option.) Questions (I do have answers to some but my experience is limited to Orcs, IG, SM and CSM):

 

weapons

W1. If our SIA-bolter is good (as it is) then, if vehicles are left out, why bolter is not competitive? I mean we could deploy 100 bolters. Are there unit types that cannot be handled with SIA?

W2. Frag cannon has been, without a doubt, the most effective weapon in my games and by that I mean flamer profile and basic infantry as a target (4+ save at most). It is good defensive weapon (overwatch) too but I struggle with that minilascannon profile because of poor range. How do you use FC's as an assault weapon? Advance by foot or disembark from transport?

W3. Shotgun is another assault weapon we have. I was thrilled using them but after few games I dropped them entirely. SIA is better and more reliable in almost every case except against multiwound models. However it is very easy and cheap to compensate that by using stalker bolters so you can shoot twice. Shotgun, any good?

W4. I have found that Combi-plasma is only worth the points when in rapid fire range.

W5. Melta. Just don't understand how to use it properly. I have never ever been able to utilize melta-effect due to poor range against vehicles but I have killed many tough Meganobz with combi-meltas shooting both profiles at the same time.

W6. In my games missile launchers must have been the most unreliable weapon ever. Sometimes they just smoke enemy vehicles turn 1 but usually they are like melta and only work best against tougher infantry models. My opinion is that either you take just 2 and be surprised if they work or take 6-8 and count that statistically they must work.

W7. I just love our stalker pattern boltgun which gives deadly 24" vengeance range. Lately I have tried to spam them to every unit that is able to shoot at least twice before enemy charges. But, when I look at lists stalkers are typically used only by long range shooters in backfield. Is this the only proper way to use them in more competitive environment so does that 3->4+ to hit change count more than longer range?

 

units

U1. Good alpha strike units always have frag cannons, right?

U2. Always customize and have a role for your unit, right? Meaning there are no good all-around units for Deathwatch, right?

U3. Backfield fire support unit (x3 stalker, x2 missile launcher) or two is a must, right?

U4. Always use units in tandem so one shooty unit backed up by one shooty/melee capable unit with Blackshield? So melee only when you can fight twice for free.

U5. I'm awful user of character models except Watch Master and Watch Captain which give re-roll auras. I'd be very interested to hear what kind of combos (librarian-captain, etc.) you have found useful and how do you use your characters?

U6. Bikers are only useful as fast object grabbers, right? I have tried to use bikers in kill-teams but because of poor durability of our kill teams I haven't been able to use that charge after fallback ability.

U7. Vanguards. Our tactics thread concludes that plasma vanguards (x5 plasma, x5 SIA) is the best composition. Why is that, cost? I don't understand this because plasma vanguard is slain immediately his plasma pistol overheats whereas with plasmagun you can continue to wound and save rolls. I have also found tournament battle reports that recommend melee role for vanguards. Despite of that for the next game I just changed my plasma-chainsword Vanguard team to plasma-SIA Vanguard team as Prot recommends.

 

tactics

T1. I know that tactics depends on kind of mission you have, kind of army you are fighting against and what is the current situation in your turn. Despite of that I ask what kind tactical manouvers do you mostly use? Alpha strike against infantry/vehicles? Rush with TAC-Razorbacks carrying frag cannon squads? Keep plasma vanguards or reivers in reserve and strike when opportunity presents itself? Tie up enemy backfield long-range shooters as fast as possible with vanguards/terminators/reivers?

T2. I have found that my army manages quite well in only war type of missions where I can utilize long range shooting extensively. But I struggle in objective play where it feels like you can have either mobility or effectiveness. With bikers it is easy to grab first two or three objectives but after that it is uphill battle because bikers are not very effective after all. So I have looked other options and would like to hear if somebody has had success with multiple Corvus Blackstars in their games?

T3. I have learned to play against Orc horde but is there anything that works against imperial knights?

T4. Is one librarian mandatory in tournaments or is it just a joke against say Grey Knights?

T5. In tournaments is it just fast tactics decisions depending who you face or do you get enemy army lists beforehand to study?

T6. Other good strategies to try ..or not to try?

[shanewatts]

I guess making a tournament guide would be pretty beneficial. I'll start working on one. In answer to your questions:

 

weapons

W1. If our SIA-bolter is good (as it is) then, if vehicles are left out, why bolter is not competitive? I mean we could deploy 100 bolters. Are there unit types that cannot be handled with SIA? SIA is phenomal, except against vehicles. Sure you can shoot them but at best you are wounding on 5s and there are better ways.

W2. Frag cannon has been, without a doubt, the most effective weapon in my games and by that I mean flamer profile and basic infantry as a target (4+ save at most). It is good defensive weapon (overwatch) too but I struggle with that minilascannon profile because of poor range. How do you use FC's as an assault weapon? Advance by foot or disembark from transport? I always disembark them from a transport. The only way a slogging frag cannon lives is if your opponent is unaware or unafraid.

W3. Shotgun is another assault weapon we have. I was thrilled using them but after few games I dropped them entirely. SIA is better and more reliable in almost every case except against multiwound models. However it is very easy and cheap to compensate that by using stalker bolters so you can shoot twice. Shotgun, any good? Nope, not worth the points.

W4. I have found that Combi-plasma is only worth the points when in rapid fire range. The problem with combi plasma is that it is very expensive on a infantry model (like frag cannons), there are better ways to get plasma, plus I have rarely had them earn their points back. The best way is to pod them, but pods jack up the cost of this unit even more.

W5. Melta. Just don't understand how to use it properly. I have never ever been able to utilize melta-effect due to poor range against vehicles but I have killed many tough Meganobz with combi-meltas shooting both profiles at the same time. Melta is kind of in a wierd place in 8th, they have to be super close, which means a pod or another transport. Just like with plasma, there are better ways to get melta right now.

W6. In my games missile launchers must have been the most unreliable weapon ever. Sometimes they just smoke enemy vehicles turn 1 but usually they are like melta and only work best against tougher infantry models. My opinion is that either you take just 2 and be surprised if they work or take 6-8 and count that statistically they must work. I personally think missile launchers are one of the worst heavy weapons currently, you pay the same price as a lascannon, for a crappier lascannon. I have stopped fielding them entirely.

W7. I just love our stalker pattern boltgun which gives deadly 24" vengeance range. Lately I have tried to spam them to every unit that is able to shoot at least twice before enemy charges. But, when I look at lists stalkers are typically used only by long range shooters in backfield. Is this the only proper way to use them in more competitive environment so does that 3->4+ to hit change count more than longer range? I haven't used the stalker a lot yet this edition, the biggest problem I have had is that you are paying for extra range bolters basically. Which means this unit should be focused on range, so if you mix it say with a frag cannon unit that needs to be close, you are wasting the points on a stalker vs a reg boltgun.

 

units

U1. Good alpha strike units always have frag cannons, right? As far as a kill team goes yes.

U2. Always customize and have a role for your unit, right? Meaning there are no good all-around units for Deathwatch, right? Correct, scalpels not swiss army knives.

U3. Backfield fire support unit (x3 stalker, x2 missile launcher) or two is a must, right? No, but if not, mobility is. The biggest problem with having backfield units is if you leave them behind, they tend to die to enemy reserves. And now the enemy has your backfield in addition to killing those unit(s).

U4. Always use units in tandem so one shooty unit backed up by one shooty/melee capable unit with Blackshield? So melee only when you can fight twice for free. I have entirely moved away from melee kill teams, they aren't survivable enough for the points. Since a Blackshield and a Sergeant are free, just include them with chainswords for sweet 4 attacks in combat.

U5. I'm awful user of character models except Watch Master and Watch Captain which give re-roll auras. I'd be very interested to hear what kind of combos (librarian-captain, etc.) you have found useful and how do you use your characters? I currently run a melee Captain and a Lib. The lib offers minimal psychic defense and some shennagins as well. (Null zone properly positioned and timed can murder a lot of characters that rely on invulns.) The Captain runs around with the rest offering bubbles, and jumps into melee when it gets sticky.

U6. Bikers are only useful as fast object grabbers, right? I have tried to use bikers in kill-teams but because of poor durability of our kill teams I haven't been able to use that charge after fallback ability. Bikers are kind of hit and miss right now. The twin boltgun + power weapon seems great on paper, but I haven't gotten a lot out of them yet. When I run Bikers I run them as a unit, not attached to a kill team.

U7. Vanguards. Our tactics thread concludes that plasma vanguards (x5 plasma, x5 SIA) is the best composition. Why is that, cost? I don't understand this because plasma vanguard is slain immediately his plasma pistol overheats whereas with plasmagun you can continue to wound and save rolls. I have also found tournament battle reports that recommend melee role for vanguards. Despite of that for the next game I just changed my plasma-chainsword Vanguard team to plasma-SIA Vanguard team as Prot recommends. Plasma-SIA is recommended based on cost, SIA is fairly good on its own vs non vehicles so pairs well with plasma. Vanguard are kind of in a wierd place right now in picking what role you want them to fulfill. The best choice is going to be based on the rest of your army comp.

 

tactics

T1. I know that tactics depends on kind of mission you have, kind of army you are fighting against and what is the current situation in your turn. Despite of that I ask what kind tactical manouvers do you mostly use? Alpha strike against infantry/vehicles? Rush with TAC-Razorbacks carrying frag cannon squads? Keep plasma vanguards or reivers in reserve and strike when opportunity presents itself? Tie up enemy backfield long-range shooters as fast as possible with vanguards/terminators/reivers? Right now I am playing a denial/"mobile" force. I have never been a fan of gunline. I have done razorbacks with frags, as well as corvus with frags. Right now I am between 2 lists, mostly due to having to adjust for tournament standards being different. One list puts most of my army in a Mastodon, the other uses a LRC and Xiphons to replace the Mastodon. In both lists I have a BN of Scions. They offer cheaper deep striking plasma/melta as well as being able to steal objectives.

T2. I have found that my army manages quite well in only war type of missions where I can utilize long range shooting extensively. But I struggle in objective play where it feels like you can have either mobility or effectiveness. With bikers it is easy to grab first two or three objectives but after that it is uphill battle because bikers are not very effective after all. So I have looked other options and would like to hear if somebody has had success with multiple Corvus Blackstars in their games? I have tried to run double corvus a few times, the biggest problem I ran into was vs smite, auto hit weapons (y'vahra), and Magnus/Morty. All 3 of these will destroy a corvus quickly and with little effort. The -1 is nice, but still killable.

T3. I have learned to play against Orc horde but is there anything that works against imperial knights? Yep, Lascannons. Lots of ways to field them, but Lascannons will hammer knights. Razorbacks, Xiphons, Land raiders all can bring em for you. (Xiphon is the most efficient points wise.) Also melta does wonders, but tends to be a suicidal unit (see scions.)

T4. Is one librarian mandatory in tournaments or is it just a joke against say Grey Knights? Mandatory no, but advisable. Being able to deny is super helpful against powers like Warp Time.

T5. In tournaments is it just fast tactics decisions depending who you face or do you get enemy army lists beforehand to study? Fast tactics and practice. Knowing the meta and being able to practice against those armies is critical to being prepared at large scale tournaments. You won't see lists beforehand, and will have no idea who your opponent will be beforehand. I try to practice against different army types in order to prepare for tournaments.

T6. Other good strategies to try ..or not to try? The biggest mistake I see in any game is lack of focus fire. Removing pieces of your opponents army is crucial, so make your choices effectively. If you have a tank that needs to die and 2 units that can do it, figure out which of those 2 units has a second option and wait with them. Shoot the primary unit at the tank, if it blows it up great, now the second unit can shoot something else, if not now you can have the second unit finish it off.

 

Also, when building your army there are certain roles that need to be filled:

-Anti-troop

-Anti-tank

-Mobility

-Objective Grabbing

 

Many units can fill multiple of these roles at the same time, but a competitive army needs to have a balance with these. Anytime I am building a list I have these roles in mind.

Edited October 29, 2017 by shanewatts

[spacewatch]

Thanks a lot for your answers. Discussions in this forum and direct feedback that I have got from other more experienced players have been absolutely the best way to understand what works and what my army is capable of doing in the battlefield. So I'm sure that experiences from tournament games would be appreciated too and really helpful for (tournament) newbies like me. I have been playing only around a year and even though I have very accurate notes form my games based on which I have done math and analytics and so been able to develope my army my opinion is that theories are just theories and not substitute for good knowledge and real experience. So tournament guide for the Deathwatch would be awesome.

[imustnotfear]

What about ven dreadnoughts? Has anyone had success there? Im building a set of three with lascannons and autocannons to form the antiflyer/vehicle core of a list. It would be great if I could use a primaris lieutenant to give the reroll wounds as they hit on 2+ anyway. I hate the little question in the back of my mind that says why not just use a normal marine detatchment for the dreads.

 

Without our codex yet I feel our killteams are a bit directionless. I quite like them as anti horde with 4 marines with bolter chainsword, a frag guy, and a termie with assalt cannon. Maybe serge with combi? the 24" range on the squad restricts their tactical positioning quite a lot. Im hoping for some decent way to use teleport homers to make the squad really flexible. Also the fearless benefit of the termie is interesting...larger squad?

 

[Mobius0288]

With the ven dreads, we don't get autocannon options. I'd say the best use for them is with a lascannon and missile in the back, making the best of the 2+ BS and the 48" range. The other options are good but I find myself investing more in kill teams and razorbacks before I field another ven dread.

[imustnotfear]

With the ven dreads, we don't get autocannon options. I'd say the best use for them is with a lascannon and missile in the back, making the best of the 2+ BS and the 48" range. The other options are good but I find myself investing more in kill teams and razorbacks before I field another ven dread.

sigh i missed that. thanks

[FenrirTheFeisty]

How is everyone feeling about chainswords in general? They are good to have around in my opinion but dont accomplish much, same with powersords to be honest. I need axes to get anything done in CC i feel

[LunarSol]

Dreads with Las/Missile seem to be about the most point efficient way to put Las grade weapons on the table, IMO.  I'm not entirely sure on the value of going to Venerable status though.

[shanewatts]

 

What about ven dreadnoughts? Has anyone had success there? Im building a set of three with lascannons and autocannons to form the antiflyer/vehicle core of a list. It would be great if I could use a primaris lieutenant to give the reroll wounds as they hit on 2+ anyway. I hate the little question in the back of my mind that says why not just use a normal marine detatchment for the dreads.

 

Without our codex yet I feel our killteams are a bit directionless. I quite like them as anti horde with 4 marines with bolter chainsword, a frag guy, and a termie with assalt cannon. Maybe serge with combi? the 24" range on the squad restricts their tactical positioning quite a lot. Im hoping for some decent way to use teleport homers to make the squad really flexible. Also the fearless benefit of the termie is interesting...larger squad?

 

Unfortunately we don't have access to Lieutenants with the Deathwatch keyword, so if you wanted to do that you'd have to have ally vanilla marines. The most point efficient Lascannons we have access to are on the Xiphon (i know no one wants to hear it.)

 

Also using termies in a kill team has been a waste of points for me, you already re-roll failed morale, and generally don't have large squads. Plus if you really need to pass a morale, 2cp is all it takes.

 

How is everyone feeling about chainswords in general? They are good to have around in my opinion but dont accomplish much, same with powersords to be honest. I need axes to get anything done in CC i feel

Heres the deal, chainswords are free. If you are shelling out for a close combat squad then of course take power axes over swords, however right now if you want to bring melee you should prolly bring something else Imperium. GK is insane in the melee department right now, and besides hammers their melee options are free. Wulfen are still good, etc.

[Mobius0288]

 

The most point efficient Lascannons we have access to are on the Xiphon (i know no one wants to hear it.)

 

 

Nah we're open to it. The deal is, official tournaments probably will restrict forgeworld usage. Local tournaments might be ok. It's kind of hard to compare a xiphon fighter to a dreadnaught, they've got different roles to fulfill. And I don't think the point cost is a straight up trade. I've already got 2 blackstars and would love to add a beastly flyer if it better then ven dread or a razorback with a watchmaster next to it. I don't really know the stats and rules on it, but I'll look when I get back to my book.

 

 

 

Also using termies in a kill team has been a waste of points for me, you already re-roll failed morale, and generally don't have large squads. Plus if you really need to pass a morale, 2cp is all it takes. 

 

I agree overall. MAYBE you could stick a termie in with a 9-man bolter/chainsword squad, but we really don't need termies for morale. I take them for AP-0 bullet sponges... storm bolters and power swords to keep them cheap. Power mauls aren't bad either against lesser infantry with ugly saves.

[Moostick]

I don't play super competitively, but one thing I've noticed is that I do much better on missions where being aggressive and trying to table my opponent is the best course of action.

 

I've also opted to use 3 combi-flamers over a FC. While they lack super hard hitting fire power, the additional D6 and 6 SIA bolter shots make them much more dangerous against hordes. I rarely find a turn where I use the solid round unless I have no choice (because it sucks), so I can't justify the 30 points. I focus the role of the flamer units and leave the hard hitting to others...which is actually hard to come by and I typically fall to simply drowning them in shots.

 

Edit: should note I play pure DW only and in missions where objective securing matters the most, I typically lose.

Edited October 30, 2017 by Moostick

[spacewatch]

 

Heres the deal, chainswords are free. If you are shelling out for a close combat squad then of course take power axes over swords, however right now if you want to bring melee you should prolly bring something else Imperium. GK is insane in the melee department right now, and besides hammers their melee options are free. Wulfen are still good, etc.

 

 

I have only index: imperium 1 but what I have read it looks like GK's have sword that compares to Orc Power Claw. That combined to good save is kind of scary. Regarding DW (cheap) melee weapons Power Axe is good but DW melee units should seriously consider buying Lightning Claws (LC) too. LC's are actually very cost effective for what they can do. As an example what does it take to kill 2 Space Marines with single LC, Axe or Chainsword? With chainswords you need Sgt (Sergeant), BS (Blackshield) and four Vets (Veteran); with power axes you need Sgt, BS and one Vet; with single lightning claw you need just Sgt and BS. What about 5 Orc Boyz? Chainsword: Sgt, BS, x4 Vets; Axe: Sgt, BS, x3 Vets; LC: Sgt, BS, x2 Vets. Now if you calculate cost per wound then against tougher target (SM) LC clearly is the best and against lighter target (Boyz) LC is again cheapest but about the same cost as chainsword. If I have any points left then I buy my Sergeants Power Axe's because even though I have shooty units single Axe is the cheapest way to increase return attack efficiency if my unit gets charged.

[spacewatch]

 

I've also opted to use 3 combi-flamers over a FC. While they lack super hard hitting fire power, the additional D6 and 6 SIA bolter shots make them much more dangerous against hordes.

 

Now that's interesting. You know how they work already but let's estimate that D6 gives statistically 3.5 hits so 3D6 gives say 10 autohits. Against horde (Sv6+) this means 4 unsaved wounds. Add 6 hellfire 4+ shots and total damage is something like 6 dead. One FC 2D6 gives 7 hits and something like 4 unsaved wounds. So in theory three combi-flamers can be better than one FC against horde and three Vets is of course more durable combination than just one. Wow, this may surprise my opponet in next game, "look no FC's in Bravo1 unit, so nothing to worry about" Nice, another option to playtest. Thanks.

 

EDIT: Calculated that x2 FC (shooting frag) + x3 SIA (shooting 3+ hellfire) is 5 pts more than x5 combi-flamer (autohit + hellfire 4+) and with that 5 pts you get ~10% more efficiency which, against Orc Boyz, is just one wound more (10+1). Set of 3 or 5 combi-flamers gives best probabilities against Boyz.

Edited October 30, 2017 by spacewatch

[shanewatts]

I've also opted to use 3 combi-flamers over a FC. While they lack super hard hitting fire power, the additional D6 and 6 SIA bolter shots make them much more dangerous against hordes. I rarely find a turn where I use the solid round unless I have no choice (because it sucks), so I can't justify the 30 points. I focus the role of the flamer units and leave the hard hitting to others...which is actually hard to come by and I typically fall to simply drowning them in shots.

This is a pretty interesting idea that I will do some playtesting with. I usually run 2 frag per squad, so I'd have to run 6 combis to be equivalent to your example. The big thing that frag cannons have over flamers is Str6 which is wounding most everything infantry/bikes on 3s, which the extra flamer hits make up for ish. You are paying 3pts extra for 3 combis vs the frag though.

 

 

 

I've also opted to use 3 combi-flamers over a FC. While they lack super hard hitting fire power, the additional D6 and 6 SIA bolter shots make them much more dangerous against hordes.

 

So in theory three combi-flamers can be better than one FC against horde and three Vets is of course more durable combination than just one.

 

3 vets vs 1 vet is actually easier to deal with, they only need to kill 3 models from a 5 man to take away 1 combi flamer. Versus 1 frag needs 4 other marines to die first.

Edited October 30, 2017 by shanewatts

[shanewatts]

 

 

The most point efficient Lascannons we have access to are on the Xiphon (i know no one wants to hear it.)

 

 

Nah we're open to it. The deal is, official tournaments probably will restrict forgeworld usage. Local tournaments might be ok. It's kind of hard to compare a xiphon fighter to a dreadnaught, they've got different roles to fulfill. And I don't think the point cost is a straight up trade. I've already got 2 blackstars and would love to add a beastly flyer if it better then ven dread or a razorback with a watchmaster next to it. I don't really know the stats and rules on it, but I'll look when I get back to my book.

Actually most of the official tournaments don't restrict forgeworld right now. The main restrictions lately have been on power level of units (max 32.) GW has said they will be addressing it in the Chapter Approved that comes out soon (hopefully.)

[spacewatch]

 

...

 

 

 

I've also opted to use 3 combi-flamers over a FC. While they lack super hard hitting fire power, the additional D6 and 6 SIA bolter shots make them much more dangerous against hordes.

 

So in theory three combi-flamers can be better than one FC against horde and three Vets is of course more durable combination than just one.

 

3 vets vs 1 vet is actually easier to deal with, they only need to kill 3 models from a 5 man to take away 1 combi flamer. Versus 1 frag needs 4 other marines to die first.

 

 

You're right. Forgot that we choose who dies, what was I thinking  

[Moostick]

The biggest extra from the combi-flamers are the set number of bolter shots. I really don't like the D6 to hits from flamers; I know the average stats, but my dice luck is terrible.

 

You're right that it costs 3+ points, and people should keep in mind this difference might be more in the future if they separate SIA costs. So if modeling is a pain for you, this could become obsolete quickly.

[LunarSol]

The main challenge with Deathwatch is that for the most part it doesn't have a ton of special advantages over normal marines, but has quite a few less options.  If a fix is needed, it really has to be either some faction wide rule (the rerolls in 7th really helped make up for the lack of numbers, fwiw) or by making one of the unique features more cost effective.  That essentially means buffing:

 

- SIA

- HTH/Shotgun/Stalker/Frag/Infernus

- Corvus Blackstar

- Kill Teams

 

Lots of room to work, but I think fundamentally Bikes/Termis/Vanguards being less than ideal options in general makes it hard to get significant advantages out of what Deathwatch is supposed to be.  Ideally the faction would be all about putting those models in with some Veterans and rocking up in a Blackstar.

[Prot]

Some really good conversation here guys. Good stuff... nothing too negative, just some reality checks and experiences. 

 

When I look at the army competitively my issues come from challenges they have with other armies. Being an elite army, with expensive marines, and expensive options, I always favour an elite matchup.

 

Off the bat challenges I feel on the wrong end of are: Swarms, armour/Parking lot lists, Psyker heavy, and CC armies like Orks/etc.

 

Unfortunately that's what's hot right now. So those are the 3 biggies I struggle with.

 

The point costs feel very out of wack right now, so items that I like are easy to do better with other marines. But regardless what I think works for us is:

 

- Cheap good generic HQ

- Good marine standard (taking into account no cost adjustments for us yet, or 'chapter tactics'.) SIA is pretty much 100% usable.

- Sneaky survivability. Putting one vanilla Termie/ or termie w/shield has extended my hardest squads to the degree of outright frustrating opponents.

 

I'm assuming most of our Strategems will mimic the theme of what we're seeing from new codexes. What I mean by that is I assume a lot of our old chapter bonuses/formation bonuses will re-appear but with the CP resources cost in the form of Strategums. 

 

So I try to keep this in mind and I prey that GW does see the fundamental issues in the army and all I can do for now is try to play them smart. This often means I can take the things I consider 'fun' too much or it's auto loss: IHB's, Vanguard, Flyers with Landraiders...too many high cost units.

 

If I confess something here, it would be that I came from playing Grey Knights before the Deathwatch came out. And I find we never did recover from that bad codex, and here the GK are out and they are the elite army I wanted in DW. They managed to participate well in most aspects of the game: Psychics, CC, shooting. 

 

I have had to put my DW away for stints based on some frustations, but for now I think I am gravitating towards a mid range, shooty Aura based army that does not have any room for error. I'm actually contemplating going back to a Pod based Watchmaster, dropping in for midrange Aura power right by the flyer, and a few razorback squads. Can Ultra do this better? Perhaps but we can take the best weapons to take advantage of that, and we don't have to sit back with it. 

 

On allies, I admit I'm not a soup player, BUT while I feel we are an index army, and closely associated to the Inquisition I do not feel any shame in using Assassins/Inquisitors/Knights/some Forgeworld.... and of course Celestine.

 

The Forgeworld stuff can be goofy, but my favorite is the Leviathan.

 

Primaris: I strongly recommend avoiding these guys except for rare exceptions. In my opinion it's all over costed which is a problem we already have... my exception is Hellblasters. But they are slow, and the rest of the army needs to get up there, and baby sitting these guys stinks. (Keep in mind we are talking competitive here.) 

 

I do use ALL primaris in fun games. I've playtested every single Primaris units in dozens of games. Redemptors, Repulsors, Intercessors, Inceptors, Aggressors.. you name it. I really don't feel it helps our competitive angles, except Hellblasters. In fact a lot of it overlaps in abilities DW do alright with. (quite honestly I feel scouts are the best option there, which can't be naturally ported into DW for obvious reasons!).

 

I find it a struggle to keep the army vanilla enough to put boots on the table, but still have fun with Corvus' and/or Landraiders, etc. I just keep comparing it to my GK as well and that's a really, really though thing to do to myself. :)

[Muckwarrior]

I've been consolidating Frag Cannons by placing 3-4 in a single Kill Team of 5 and placing them in the path of these swarms. This has been working out very well for me. Teams of 5 Stalker Bolters positioned in elevated cover have been great back up. Hellblasters, Inceptors and Reivers are acting as a shield wall for the Frag Cannons.

[Aothaine]

I'm a huge fan of SIA. It allows DW veterans to wound everything except vehicles on a 2+ (This poison round is better than the dark eldar poison just keep that in mind). It is the round I would most likely use unless I was shooting something like terminators in which case I would use the -2ap ammo. 

 

I am of the belief that Death Watch are in a fairly decent, but over costed, position as far as codex armies go. They SIA makes up a lot of ground by creating versatility in their units with Bolt guns. This basically means that they only have to focus on three things. Bolt guns, anti-tank and pyschic. Hordes can easily be handled with the correct SIA, falling back and speed bumping. 

 

It seems a lot of people are super happy with the cheap captain but I prefer the melee power of the watch master. I would most likely run at least 3 HQ options. One watch master and two librarians. As many bolter veterans as I could field and then 2-4 dreadnoughts with two-lascannons and a fist to help with vehicles and assaults. The bolter marines would have a vangurd veteran and terminator in each squad for the ability to soak up fire with the terminator and the ability to fall back and shoot. Then I would include three primaris apothecaries because I will want to bring back those damage soaking terminators. It would be a foot slogging army unless I found enough points to include two Crovus' but I'm not sure that I would unless I could gear them up entirely for anti-vehicle. But to be honest the 2-4 Dreadnoughts should be enough to get the enemy vehicles down enough that my troops will not have to worry about them anymore. 

[Prot]

That’s a lot for 2k. I’d say it’s too hard to juggle that in a competitive environment. Although I agree about the apothecary except you need to make sure you can protect him because he’s walking without a Repulsor. So 3 of them becomes a logistics issue. But I have used one in my lists. It does help.