So, Mars sucks :)

[Feral_80]

Well not really, but almost. After several games with Mars my conclusion are that:

• Cawl is great, but he forces a very rigid army composition as he gives his best with BS 4+ heavy hitters, which are expensive in pts and low in mobility.
• Its stratagem (Fury, as well as the non-specific but highly relevant Elimination Volley) is great, but in the end it is simply overkill most of the times: it makes a deadly gunline even more deadly, but that is hardly needed except in extreme situations (Magnus etc.). Where the army really is in need (mobility), Mars gives nothing.
• The double-canticle buff + Cawl adjustment is nice, as shroudpsalm is almost guaranteed every turn. But the generally modest help provided by the other canticles, as well as shroudpsalm's limited utility against some (i.e. assault) armies, plus the fact that generally cover is quite easy to get for small and few infantry squads anyway (the way AdMech usually plays), make it a good but not essential bonus. It's still nice for Kastelans and Onagers, but there are other buffs around that benefit them as well.

90% of the games I have played, the situation has been the same: I almost annihilated my opponent, but sometimes I lost due to lack of board control. No indirect fire and no mobility means you are not going to table a smart opponent, and if you are behind in points (because of bad cards, etc.), you won't be able to win no matter what you got left. Last game I lost 7-2 to an Ork who had 15 models left at turn 3, but I was simply unable to catch him.

 

So, my conclusion? I won't play Mars anymore. I'll probably go Stygies, whose doctrine is also situational, but at least whose stratagem is almost invariably useful for an objective-based game. Plus, it allows much greater flexibility in my army composition. What I really don't like? Cawl is a great piece, I enjoyed to paint it and to use it. The codex is not bad, but it is severely limited by our lack of HQ options and our only, very dominant named character. That's a pity, and very frustrating.

 

What do you think?

Edited October 30, 2017 by Feral_80

[Redtoof]

My 'solution' to the 'army is really slow' issue was to get a knight, so I don't think my advice is super useful here. Initial thoughts are have you got any infiltrators? A unit of 5 held back till turn 3 to mop up or claim objectives might work for you?

[Thorakitai]

I've noticed, and lost two games because of, the same thing. That being said, Cawl and wrath bots are the only real way we have to quickly kill or cripple the big centerpiece models like Magnus that are only going to get more prevalent. So I think two detachments is really the way to go.

[Vel'Cona]

I think the rigidity in your army is really just playing too much into self-imposed "requirements" for Mars.  There's no reason you can't take fast units and/or infiltrators in your list, regardless of perceived inferiority to other lists.  While Dragoons, Infiltrators, and Ironstriders main gain more buffs from Stygies VIII or Lucius, they're still perfectly viable in a Mars list and can help to overcome some of the limitations on Cawl's "gunline" style.  Now, if you're finding that Mars just doesn't meet the type of army you want to play, that's all well and good, but that doesn't mean it isn't a perfectly viable option with some unit/point redistribution.

 

I do agree, however, that Cawl is very dominant in our codex and it's very much a shame that our other HQs are somewhat lackluster.  The more mobile FW Dogmas do add quite a bit to our otherwise maligned units (such as Electropriests), making them table-worthy if not actually strong.  I think the biggest issue for AdMech going forward is that many players (including myself) tuned our lists to a 7th edition meta, and 8th is requiring a totally different game plan.  For example, I weighed heavily on Kataphron Destroyers in 7th, but now that 6-man unit I built is somewhat useless  :(

[Charlo]

Can't wait for Cyraxus to give us Triaros and we can roll forward on glorious land trains full of Skitarii + Magi.

[Feral_80]

Thanks for the replies. Sadly, I don't see a Knight as a solution: not particularly effective for its points, nor that mobile after all. And even with the best of lucks, it won't claim more than one objective.

 

I used to run 1-2 infiltrators units, but they are too fragile and unreliable. Devoting more points to units that will be far outside Cawl's buffing aura is only one additional point encouraging me to move away from Mars.

 

Destroyers are poor. Breachers are barely ok with Cawl. Kastelans are good regardless. All the rest is BS 3+ anyway, which normally means no huge difference between Cawl and a normal TPD.

 

As it stands, our codex is severely lacking. I don't know if FoC will save us, but certainly AdMech needs some more options to be fun. I am willing to experiment any non-Mars build in order to make our army more interesting.

[Ammonius]

If you are wanting to stay exclusively in the Admech Codex, then a hunter-killer team of Dragoons or Infiltrators to go after those proverbial "last 15 Orks" is probably the right answer.

 

If you are willing to diversify your detachments, then the wonderland of Astra Militaurum artillery beckons.

 

Or maybe get some Assassins? Or maybe a flyer in an auxilliary support detachment?

[Charlo]

Stormtroopers are basically Skitarii with different weapons and no invuln.

 

Or they can just be a different breed of tech-warrior.

 

The Forge Worlds are diverse and myriad ;)

[Feral_80]

I don't like Imperial soup, and don't want to make a codex good by using other codexes. I am mainly an Astra Militarum player, but when I play AdMech I play AdMech 

We'll find a way, or die trying. I'm geared towards 3x Dragoons and a mix of Stygies infiltrating units / Infiltrators to contest the board. Cawl will stay at home, at least until hopefully we get a decent ruleset to field a generic higher-ranking TPD (if ever); a Skitarius alpha would help as well, since the Enginseer is completely useless.

[Yoda79]

I have soup as my trully competitive list. But I can make almost a good one with solo ad mech. Guard provide easy cheap cp and cp gain . Rest we got or close to it.

 

I always play with two specific ways.

 

Full mars it's a decision to take inflirators. Use them later maybe 2-3 turn. Two units are more than capable to give you Those few last cards when only 30 orcs remain.

 

True mars also provides a 9" aura meaning Robots maxed placed in mid Cawl 9 from them and onagers nother 9 that's the whole table. Onagers and Cawl can start as dakka line but can advance easy all turns.

 

Two+ detachments. I never leave how with out inf dragoons. 10 move stratagems to move extra infiltration etc. The best thing of stygies is you can make a simple outrider detachment with dragoons balistarii priests vanguard's breachers and depending on the game infiltrate what you need and use screener the rest you won't see in dire need.

 

It's superb and it provides more options than many other armies in infiltration rule.

 

That's about it.

 

Mars. Cawl Robots wrath of mars onagers Arquebus dragoons and priests atm are the definition of adeptus mechanicus. Cawls aura rerolling everything is nowhere else to be found . Making our shooting not only good but extremely good vs current meta. Most armies got -1 to hit as your stygies. Only Cawl can reroll those hits that missed after modifier. Making us trully a dakka force equal to none.

 

Robot shooting with wrath best range mortal in game. Onager neutron best gun below Titan. Transonic Arquebus best sniper par to assassin's. I know we miss a lot I have fought about how bad the codex is but we can't say ad mech has nothing. It's an extreme power house.

 

Ryza plasma extreme for destroyers and robots . With a simple dominus.

Lucius and stygies all units can become deep strike or infiltrate making even troops or priests important. And staff prist are really good. Place them so you can kill a fast char and become a 3+ 5+ fnp unit with mortals.

 

I know it's not ideal but it's good enough till our codex /army forms with all it's weapons.

 

Knights I would take only in knight list with some guard and some ad mech dedicated healers. If you are to make. Soup guard Celestine dragoons Robots somewhere in between are best at!!

[DeStinyFiSh]

I have to disagree here... you can take the same units as every other Forgeworld, so why not take more Dragoons, Striders and Infiltrators? Especially a10 man unit of Infiltrators with Wrath of Mars is nice !

 

And if you find you Robots with Mars Stratagem are overkill most of the time, just splitfire... Mortal Wounds for everyone

[Vel'Cona]

I have to agree on the soup part.  I'm not a fan of hyper-blended Imperium lists simply because no matter how much I try to unite the paint scheme, it always looks like army casserole.  I too am not sure that AdMech have the tools needed to compete with min-maxed opposition, and I definitely feel that an IK isn't really going to help.

[yellabelly]

I've been feeling this lately, and to be fair it's not just with Mars. Ad Mech have...limited options anyway. And when there are several units that are either to poor to take (hello Ruststalkers) or poor but you have to take them as a detachment tax (hello TPD and Enginseer) then it starts to make things feel very limited. Whatever army list I try to build from whatever Forgeworld feels too samey in units and playstyle. Robots and dunecrawlers, everything else is just padding them out.

I'm new to the game, and should maybe persevere with things a bit more. I've put a lot of time into painting up my ad mech. But I'm not doing, I've started a Drukhari army. It's got mobility, shooting, combat. It's got options. I like options and ad mech don't have many.....

[DeStinyFiSh]

I've been feeling this lately, and to be fair it's not just with Mars. Ad Mech have...limited options anyway. And when there are several units that are either to poor to take (hello Ruststalkers) or poor but you have to take them as a detachment tax (hello TPD and Enginseer) then it starts to make things feel very limited. Whatever army list I try to build from whatever Forgeworld feels too samey in units and playstyle. Robots and dunecrawlers, everything else is just padding them out.

I'm new to the game, and should maybe persevere with things a bit more. I've put a lot of time into painting up my ad mech. But I'm not doing, I've started a Drukhari army. It's got mobility, shooting, combat. It's got options. I like options and ad mech don't have many.....

 

While I do not agree to call the TPD a "tax unit" I strongly agree with the rest. Most of my armys have the same base (2 Neutron Onagers; Phosphor Bots; Sniper Rangers; Infiltrators), the rest is filled with counter charge units, faster units and cheap Skitarii to provide bodys.

 

That being said, I can not understand why Mars should suck compared to other Forgeworlds. I know, especially Stygies has a very solid Dogma and Stratagems, but are they realy that much better only because you can shock in a few units?

[Prot]

Some good thoughts in this thread guys!

 

Honestly when I first saw the thread title I worried things would get a little too salty in here, but they didn't... just the facts, and play by play opinion, which is very Admech of you. ;)

 

I know Mars is a little pigeon holed, I feel it myself in my games. The strong combo's are strong indeed though. The problem with this army, as most are already saying, is mobility, and surviving that mobility by taking on CC units. Not to mention heavy Psychics.

 

I too do't like to play soup, but I understand the attraction to some people.

 

Mars kills exceptionally well, but in tournament style, and even Maelstrom games, it is VERY hard to win with. If all I played was stand and shoot/kill points, I would be laughing. Unfortunately I never really play those kinds of games. 

 

But what I will say is I've pushed harder, and harder into Dragoons and Sicaran Infiltrators and they do work, however these are both finesse units. Timing is everything and holding off is critical sometimes, as well as playing those strategems. 

 

I think the army perhaps feels a little worse because Astra, and Eldar just came out with exceptional stuff, and there's a bit of 'grass is greener' going on now. I think it was wise of GW to release these codexes in this order.

[yellabelly]

Yea fair enough about the TPD not being a tax unit. Probably more accurately described as an overpriced necessity. The re-roll 1 aura is nice but he struggled to justify his price imo. Edited October 31, 2017 by yellabelly

[Feral_80]

I quite like the TPD actually. Apart from his aura, due to the lack of decent relics usually I choose the phosphoenix, which makes him quite nasty when shooting 6 shots with a potential for mortal wounds on half of them. And the Stygies trait can make him even better.

 

Still, my choices depend more on a lack of decent alternatives than on anything else.

Edited October 31, 2017 by Feral_80

[synthaside]

I find that while I WANT to play the other forge worlds, (I'm painted in a slight variation of Metallica),  I can't bring myself to abandon the 2 Canticles a turn and ability to bring Cawl or the Wrath.  Yes, Mars isn't perfect and it forces us to turtle up the board like some kind of roman testudo to escape this trap we need to think outside the box.

Initially, I did Doubt Prot's strange love of the Robotic chicken, turns out I couldn’t be more wrong  , I think a strike team of dragoons followed up with infiltrator either to capture and hold some upfield objective or to distract/divert attention from our slow rumble forward. 

I finally ran a dragoon in a game at the weekend ( a  proxy Bali that I didn’t have enough points for ), he did fantastically charging a chimaera, using the stratagem,  and leaving it on 1 wound, my regret is that I didn't have more of them in the squad. ( Delivery incoming ;-) ) He then drew the entire IG gunline’s firepower turn 2 ,  but due to it being rather tough for guardsman to hit at -1  and with shroud psalm  the plucky murder chicken tanked 2 double punisher volleys'  lost a few wounds to a battle cannon dodged a russ demolisher a couple of squad lascannons ,  before being squished by a bassie . I call that a big success,  all of that fire would have been much much effective  shot at my onagers, and while I didn’t win the game,  I was me being unable to table him to counter my terrible objective draw to 2X defend the objectives in his deployment zone, if the game hadn’t ended turn 5 on a roll of  1 I would have.

On the lack of quality relics, comment, I Really like the relic which gives an additional d6 strength 4 attacks  re-rolling wounds on infantry. With this the TPD can  murder a guard squad in a turn, hitting on 3's with base attacks  followed by D6 - lets call it average "3"  wounding on 3's with the re-roll or 4's  marines   at -1 ap to boot. (I've not seen anywhere that this role isnt modified by canticles it's a weapon attack ) so with mars' 2 rolls, for a turn, it's quite possible to buff for combat im predicting or already locked in , That can become d6 strength 5 -1 which can put the pain on marines ;-).

Maybe it's just my local meta where every army and their dog is rushing into combat as fast as possible to stop me from advancing/shooting them,  While empty transports nip around capturing objectives  or push forward to  combat lock down my Shooty stuff . 

Edited October 31, 2017 by synthaside

[DeStinyFiSh]

Yea fair enough about the TPD not being a tax unit. Probably more accurately described as an overpriced necessity. The re-roll 1 aura is nice but he struggled to justify his price imo.

 

Are there any other Characters out there that can heal themself d3 wounds a turn AND d3 wounds on any friendly unit?

He is not cheap, but we get something realy tanky, that can heal our Vehicles and multi wound models, heal himself, boosts our accuracy, has good shooting and can hurt in CC. I don't think he can be much cheaper than he is now.

[Aothaine]

I'm pretty much of the mind that Mars is the best because with Cawl you roll 2d6 +/- 1 to one of the dice letting you have two canticles affect your army every turn. It also allows you to manipulate the buffs you get. This is on top of bring Cawl to the table which is a significant boost to your army.

[Prot]

I find that while I WANT to play the other forge worlds, (I'm painted in a slight variation of Metallica),  I can't bring myself to abandon the 2 Canticles a turn and ability to bring Cawl or the Wrath.  Yes, Mars isn't perfect and it forces us to turtle up the board like some kind of roman testudo to escape this trap we need to think outside the box.

 

Initially, I did Doubt Prot's strange love of the Robotic chicken, turns out I couldn’t be more wrong  , I think a strike team of dragoons followed up with infiltrator either to capture and hold some upfield objective or to distract/divert attention from our slow rumble forward. 

 

 

 

Thanks I appreciate that. I'll have to let my wife know that indeed I have been right about something in my life. ;)

 

I know we all have different meta issues to deal with which makes our experiences unique, but I will say that in my case I never post something that I've found a 'success' or even a failure without trying it on the tabletop at least a handful of times. 

 

I don't think the Chicken soup is going to win a tournament, but it's just spicy enough to give some opponent's pause for thought. They generally hate shooting at them, and I find if I can pick my timing correctly, they can swing momentum for a turn or two without sacrificing too many points, or too many really shooty units. 

 

On different Forgeworlds... I agree. It's really hard to leave Mars' advantages but it also does tend to shackle us a little bit into a playstyle that can be challenging.

[Feral_80]

The chickens help, but sometimes they are not even able to leave your deployment zone: against a horde assault, they might survive and kill stuff, but they won't reach your opponents' half of the field to grab those objectives. This is what happened to me against an Ork recently: my Mars chickens did great, but they were simply unable to move past the tide. That's why you need both Infiltrators and the Lucius or Stygies stratagem.

[Yoda79]

The codex is bad . I'm sure they have not calculated the tax we pay for everything single option. You say dragoons can get locked in our lines and we should use Lucius or stygies. I hear ya but every single time I try to make a list I don't seem to have enough points.

 

What will 3 dragoons do if not only screen.

What will 4 robots do even with Mars if they get focus fire

What will 3+ enginseers do in detachments with 0 vehicles?

 

I love stygies and I believe a dragoon detachment is the way to go. I have started to take stygies outrider with good results .

 

Either full dragoon or even lasc balistarii. Dragoons to charge balistarii with -1 for screener secnd ranks. Still the tax won't give results.

 

I sacrifice so many points I can't have decent troops. I can't have priests or enough vehicles.

 

I was wondering why in control would make a list list!e that and I decided that there is no more room. To do much.

 

Two detachments battalions Mars stygies for 9cp not much but still seems the most we can get. Now here is the question.

 

If you don't make big units like 5-6 Robots and 5-6 dragoons you won't have stratagems to buff them properly. You won't have. Cp to reroll that last warlord armor save. It just can't happen. I took 4 robots and 3-4 dragoons to get an onager and some priests to try and have options and remember cheap units. Won't work. It simply won't work. You won't have cp to give priests 3cp for a second attack. You won't have cp to infiltrate or deep strike units.

 

I was glad we had Lucius and stygies. I though what a tactical advantage . I took a batt stygies I though what a tactical advantage . I had troops snipers breachers dragoons even onagers in. I though according to the game I d play vs different enemies I d infiltrate what was most wise. Troops camping obj? Breachers taking relic bla bla . Yeah right. Not possible. You got options but master none. A group of breachers might be nice in theory but will die . For 141 points and average 2 cp a simple stormshield unit would do it 300 times better.

 

Same for the rest of options. 40-45 points for troops that can't do nothing is extreme. Can't move can't inf can't deep strike. Nothing. Will die of morale will die from small fire arms can't melee can't get buffed bla bla. Same goes for onagers can't get in units can't get cp buffed. Same goes for every single unit. There are options but extremely costly cause all require cp to play and will not synergise. If I take dragoons I can't take priest cause our cheap unit dragoons need to be 4+ to work the gem. Robots same balistarii same priests same.

Making our army lists single dimensional.

 

Robots and dragoons 9cp in control took. Won't become better even if you play 100 games. Why cause in serious games you need mortals . And Robots can only provide since priests will die vs any alpha strike. Not that robots won't but.

And Cawl + Robots leave little room for anything else so dragoons was the right call. You can talk all day but eventually unless you bring guard for cheap cp and co regain you won't go far.

 

I did make a graia battalion mars spearhead and stygies outrider. That will come close to this with good results but... The tax is just so big. And it's not like we overtake. 2 onagers are not enough vs a vehicle list. Nor 5 robots vs a horde army. It's just so badly designed . The options are bad. Three hq with same auras for 52 135 250 just won't do it.

 

And since I don't like to be negative only I LL say this. Your chance is to make an extreme dakka line . So extreme that will evaporate enemies. That's the best you can do. 1-3 rounds shooting then 1-3 moving!!! Cawl Robots snipers Dragoons gl