Grenade Launchers

[TheShredder]

Has anyone had any success with Grenade Launchers?

 

If so, any tactics you'd care to share?

 

 

I'm asking this because I seem to have dozens of the things, and it would be nice to actually use them sometime. 

[Tirak]

Better than flamers, worse than plasma. They're ok at adding firepower at max lasgun range, so I tend to put them on my Heavy Bolter anchor squads to give them a bit of extra firepower, and give them some punch if they have to move. Never forget a frag grenade is just D6 lasgun shots so a Krak coinflip really isn't as bad as you think it is.

[Vel'Cona]

The price is certainly a bonus compared to other weapons.  I'd agree that flamers and melta are poor choices for Infantry Squads in most cases (with some notable exceptions), but as a general rule Plasma is going to be better than a GL (thanks in part to Take Aim! should you actually care about your soldier's lives).

 

For the most part, the GL is a cost-saving option compared to Plasma, though it's only really worth considering on Infantry Squads.  Anything else that has the option (Veterans, Command Squads, Militarum Tempestus, etc.) is likely to be BS 3+ and can make much better use of the Plasma (or Meltaguns for special cases).

[TheShredder]

Sorry if this is a silly question, but why are Flamers poor choices for Infantry Squads?

[Tirak]

Sorry if this is a silly question, but why are Flamers poor choices for Infantry Squads?

 

Super short range and equal cost to plasma. They're too expensive with zero flexability except as a counter charge, and a single flamer frankly isn't going to factor much into your opponents decision making about charging guardsmen.

[Major_Gilbear]

They can also be useful for filling out command squads that have HVTs in them like flags. Flag plus 3 GL lets them hang back and still contribute a bit.

[Withershadow]

There was a comparison of this in the Infantry thread, math shows grenade launchers are better for the points over plasma when targeting typical infantry. Plasmaguns only start overtaking it when overcharged, which can be difficult for line squads (order efficiency/availability of buffing characters). The comparison is even more skewed when you consider the cost increase for BS3+ models.

 

In short, I would say it's a good weapon. With the increased need for command squads for morale, I like the GL as a special slot filler. My line Infantry has 6 plasma guns and 6 grenade launchers. Before the Codex I ran grenade launchers for Infantry and plasma for command squads, now I do the opposite.

 

Flamers and meltas should be kept to SWSs and suicide command squads.

[BurntheHeretic]

my math shows different if we compare plasma guns and grenade launchers.. only against Guardmanlike units the grenade launcher is better... until the plasma gun gets in Rapid Fire range.

 

Taking a BS4+ model: 

 

A frag grenade fired against a typical infantry squad does 0.583 damage. A rapid firing plasma gun does 0.83 damage.

 

Against MEQ´s, a krak grenade does 0.166 damage (0.333 if 2 wound model), a frag grenade 0.194. A single (non rapid firing) plasma gun shot does 0.277 damage. 

 

The plasma gun can be overcharged and threaten vehicles much better than a krak grenade. An 11 point model killed because of a bad overcharge is worth the risk. I´d take plasma guns over grenade launchers anytime. 

[CoffeeGrunt]

I keep trying to write them into lists, but it's only 2pts cheaper than a Plasma Gun and just generally less versatile IMO.

[Withershadow]

You're comparing a single plasma gun vs a single grenade launcher.  If you adjust the numbers for points, they start to look different.  You can buy 3 grenade launchers for the price of a BS4 plasma.

[HenricusTyranicus]

There was a comparison of this in the Infantry thread, math shows grenade launchers are better for the points over plasma when targeting typical infantry. Plasmaguns only start overtaking it when overcharged, which can be difficult for line squads (order efficiency/availability of buffing characters). The comparison is even more skewed when you consider the cost increase for BS3+ models.

 

 

Typical infantry rarely have more than one wound though. Still a pretty niche use.

[CoffeeGrunt]

No you can't. Plasma is 7pts, GL is 5pts. You can buy about four Grenade Launchers for every three Plasma Guns.

Plus statistically a Frag shot is slightly worse than a Lasgun with FRFSRF within 12".

[BurntheHeretic]

You're comparing a single plasma gun vs a single grenade launcher.  If you adjust the numbers for points, they start to look different.  You can buy 3 grenade launchers for the price of a BS4 plasma.

 

 

Agreed when looking at BS3+ models. But normal infantry squads are BS4+, so that is, as CoffeeGrunt pointed out, 3 plasma guns for 4 grenade launchers.

 

On Command Squads, where the difference is indeed huge, the grenade launcher starts becoming useful again, to avoid the heavy tax on plasma. The grenade launcher is still not that good... but at least it´s cheap.

Edited October 31, 2017 by BurntheHeretic

[Halfpint100]

I would say grenade launchers could be useful on vets and command squads, since plasma has the massive price hike for those models. 8 points less is a lot of extra goodies. 

 

Plus a vet squad with 3 grenade launchers and a heavy bolter is only 83 points

[CoffeeGrunt]

Yeah but it doesn't really do anything. You could buy two Infantry Squads for that.

[Withershadow]

At the end of the day, I like my grenade launchers.  Everyone is still focusing on 7th edition anti-MEQ math, when sheer volume of dice is a larger component of the game than ever.  Dice are dice, and grenade launchers can potentially kill way more chaff models than plasma. 

 

I used to have grenade launchers in my infantry squads, while the plasma guns went to suicide command squads that would get an overcharged volley off and die.  Now the grenade launchers have gone to my command squads who hang in the back with banners, while the plasma guns have gone to my infantry squads who can get re-rolls to hit just by standing still and being Cadian.

[Altasmurf]

I think withershadow has stumbled onto somthing here. The potential of the grenade launcher vs most infantry is higher then that of a plasmagun. The guard have tonnes of ways to deal with mid to high T low save models that you would rather not waste on chaff. I see his point of view where even if the average damage is similar the potential for the grenade launcher is much higher. Especially in squad where orders aren't available.

 

I don't think guard player is going to lose because he took grenade launchers instead of plasma. Heck I take flamers which everyone says are garbage and I still haven't lost a game where I tone down my list for my opponent. Personally if my models had grenade launchers I wouldn't go out of my way to get plasma, I'd just use the launchers.

[Tirak]

You'll probably not lose to not having plasma, but even against T3 I'd rather bring a plasma gun for the wound on 2s. The high strength means reliable wounding for the shots that get through, the high AP means save mitigation which is huge this edition, and the ability to overcharge means literally nothing is beyond being reliably hurt by a plasma gun. I like grenade launchers for static units, who I don't want to close to rapid range, however I'm of the opinion that if the squad is mobile, the gunner should glow.

[duz_]

Better than flamers, worse than plasma. They're ok at adding firepower at max lasgun range, so I tend to put them on my Heavy Bolter anchor squads to give them a bit of extra firepower, and give them some punch if they have to move. Never forget a frag grenade is just D6 lasgun shots so a Krak coinflip really isn't as bad as you think it is.

This is my goto too, although may sub in autocannons vs HBs.

I like their price and TAC abilities.

(Not to mention Mordian plasma guns are nigh impossible to find)

[Imperator Deus]

I swear by Grenade Launchers. I typically run nine Infantry Squads, all with Grenade Launchers, 3 Heavy Bolters, 3 Lascannons and 3 Missile Launchers. I like that they're cheap and versatile. Frag Grenades against most infantry, and Krak vs everything else. Plasma is nice, but it's overkill against most non-MEQ infantry. I can't really find a place in gun line Infantry Squads for Flamers, especially since the price increase in 8th. They are good to have in Special Weapons Squads though, 3D6 shots from Flamers are always a threat. I don't often take Plasmaguns, but when I do I think taking them in Command Squads is best since they're Veterans and hit on a 3+. Now that Plasmaguns have nearly doubled in price for BS 3+ models, you can't take as many though, but it's probably still worth it. Think of Grenade Launchers as your jack-of-all-trades special weapons - they're not awesome at any one thing, but they're good at everything. Considering you get all that for 5 measly points, Grenade Launchers are always the best bet for Infantry Squads, in my opinion.

[HenricusTyranicus]

I think bearing regimental doctrines in mind may be helpful. Plasma is directly supported by Cadians, Vostroyans, Armageddon. Indirectly, it's boosted by Mordian's general desire to be within 12 inches of their opponents, their plus one to hit on overwatch making it impossible to overheat, their order using rapidfire weapons, and their stratagem using rapidfire weapons. It's also boosted by Tallarn's outflank ability, allowing rapidfire weapons to close in where you need them. By contrast, the only  support for grenade launchers comes from Tallarn's ability to maintain a solid distance. 

 

I run some grenade launchers myself, and I think they could be valuable on Vet squads serving as fire support, but they're also clearly outclassed as line trooper weapons by Plasma. 

[CoffeeGrunt]

I'll have to get them out sometime, but tbh I don't lack for killing chaff, I have Lasguns for that. Personally I take Special Weapons to give Infantry Squads the ability to deal with threats beyond chaff, as they handle chaff just fine as they are.

[TheShredder]

I'll have to get them out sometime, but tbh I don't lack for killing chaff, I have Lasguns for that. Personally I take Special Weapons to give Infantry Squads the ability to deal with threats beyond chaff, as they handle chaff just fine as they are.

 

This is how I feel as well. 

 

I get that the Grenade Launcher is better against infantry, but I already have the rest of the squad for that. Do I really also need a special weapon with a lasgun mode?

[Zectz]

You don't need to. But it's not a bad idea. When adding special/heavy weapons to units for all types of armies you have a choice to either give it an ability to deal with a different threats, or increases its output against the current type of unit it's good at killing. Adding a grenade launcher increases its ability against infantry and there is nothing wrong with that. I understand if people want to make the unit versatile against other types of enemies, but there is nothing wrong with just making it more streamlined as well.

 

It's no different to adding big shootas to shoota boy squads, or splinter cannons to Dark Eldar Kalabite squads.

 

And this is all ignoring the fact that in addition to the extra anti infantry it gives, there are arguments for Grenade Launcher being better vs certain light vehicle/monsters creatures as well.

[CoffeeGrunt]

But it doesn't really increase its ability if you're putting FRFSRF on within 12", it's actually slightly worse. It's better at 12-24", but even then it's only a couple of extra shots on average which you've paid points and a slot for.