When does a unit count as charging?

[TheWolfLord]

*Although I'm going to refer to this doctrine I understand that as the Tyranid Codex hasn't released we shouldn't be discussing that in general. However, the rules in the Charge and Fight Phase are of more interest to me and I'm just using the Tyranid rules as background.*

 

Following the release of the Tyranid Hive World abilities I've seen a discussion arise on FB over the Jormundgandr trait. It gives all non flying units the benefit of cover, however if the unit Advances or charges it loses the ability until the start of its next movement phase.

 

The discussion was whether the unit gained the cover bonus against Overwatch.

 

 

It's an interesting discussion as when does a unit count as charging? When it's selected to make a charge move (step 1) or once it's charge move brings it into 1" of an enemy unit (step 4)?

The implications are quite large. Most people agreed that a unit counts as charging the moment a charge is declared.

As charging is present tense for charged, if a unit is considered to be charging it must be considered to have charged (past tense), therefore even if a unit fails the charge it has charged.

 

 

However, the Fight Phase tells us that a unit that charged in the previous Charge Phase can be activated to Pile in, Fight and Consolidate even if there is no enemy unit within 1".

 

On that basis I'd argue that a unit doesn't count as having charged until it gets within 1" of the enemy. This prevents units that fail their charge from activating.

Therefore, the declaration of the charge cannot be when a unit is counted as having charged.

 

I'd be interested in hearing your thoughts and arguments regarding when a unit counts as charging.

[Adeptus]

I would say that a unit has only charged (and therefore counts as charging) after it has successfully completed a charge. If it fails a charge, then it hasn't charged, and so doesn't count as charging or having charged.

[Quixus]

I would say that a unit has only charged (and therefore counts as charging) after it has successfully completed a charge. If it fails a charge, then it hasn't charged, and so doesn't count as charging or having charged.

That makes little sense. To have charged and to be charging are mutually exclusive. Either the action is completed (has charged) or he action is ongoing (is charging)

I'd say as soon as you declare a charge in the charge phase, a unit is charging, and by the beginning of the fight phase is has charged.

 

I am not aware which Tyranid rule the OP is referring to, so I cannot check which condition is required.

[Gentlemanloser]

"A unit with this adaptation (other than units that can FLY) always has the benefit of cover for the purpose of shooting attacks. If the unit Advances or charges, however, it loses the benefits of this adaptation until the start of your next Movement phase. "

 

 

Edit. Your charge can fail at step 4 of the charge phase. But up until then ( and overwatch occurs before this) you were still charging.

 

So I'd say no to cover saves for overwatch.

[TheWolfLord]

"A unit with this adaptation (other than units that can FLY) always has the benefit of cover for the purpose of shooting attacks. If the unit Advances or charges, however, it loses the benefits of this adaptation until the start of your next Movement phase. "

Edit. Your charge can fail at step 4 of the charge phase. But up until then ( and overwatch occurs before this) you were still charging.

So I'd say no to cover saves for overwatch.

I'm more concerned with the implications of that for the Fight Phase more than on the Tyranid ability.

 

Then technically even if you failed the charge you are still a unit that charged in the previous Charge Phase

 

That's the part I disagree agree with fundamentally. If you have historically been described as charging the only correct way to describe that unit in the past tense is as a unit that has charged.

The rules of the Fight Phase do not distinguish against a unit that charges and fails the charge or a unit that charges and makes a successful charge.

 

The Charge Phase is broken down into 4 sections.

 

The first says You can select a unit within 12" of an enemy unit to make a charge move.

 

The second says you declare the target of the units charge.

 

The third is overwatch

 

Only the final section deals with the charge move and mentions the phrase charging. As that is after the overwatch phase can we say definitively when the unit is to be treated as charging?

[Gentlemanloser]

The nid rule doesn't say sucessfully charged. Which would clear this issue up.

 

At any time you have charged (which i would say starts from step one in the charge phase), sucessfully or not, you lose the adaptation.

 

Could be worded much better though.

 

Basically it's the red box that seals it for me.

 

All 4 steps are the 'charge sequence'. Start step 1, and you begun the charge sequence and that unit is charging.

[TheWolfLord]

The nid rule doesn't say sucessfully charged. Which would clear this issue up.

At any time you have charged (which i would say starts from step one in the charge phase), sucessfully or not, you lose the adaptation.

Could be worded much better though.

Basically it's the red box that seals it for me.

All 4 steps are the 'charge sequence'. Start step 1, and you begun the charge sequence and that unit is charging.

Like I said I'm not concerned with the Nid rule. The Fight Phase rules don't say successfully charged either.

 

If you count as having charged from step one in the charge phase then you would always count as 'a unit that charged in the previous Charge Phase'. If that's the case then even units that fail a charge can activate in the Fight Phase.

[Ciler]

This is an intriguing question, and I can't provide a satisfactory answer, but it raises some interesting implications.

1. Let's assume that a unit is considered as having charged as soon as it declares a charge (phase 4), whether it has succeeded or not. This means that the tyranid unit does not benefit from cover. Let's then assume it has failed its charge roll. It is still considered as having charged, so it may be selected to fight, although it has no unit to fight with ("Any unit that charged or has models within 1" of an enemy unit can be chosen to fight in the Fight phase." notice the or), and thus it may then pile in and consolidate. This incidently applies to any unit, not just tyranids.
2. Let's now assume that a unit is considered as having charged only after having made a successful charge roll. This means indeed that the tyranid unit still gets the benefit of cover for the purpose of overwatch, because it hasn't charged yet. If it then fails it's charge roll, it may not pile in nor consolidate. 

I personally have some significant issues with situation 1, so I'm going to assume the intended effect was 2, but I can't find anything that conclusively supports this in the rules as written. I expect this will be part of the codex's day 1 FaQ.

[TheWolfLord]

This is an intriguing question, and I can't provide a satisfactory answer, but it raises some interesting implications.

 

• Let's assume that a unit is considered as having charged as soon as it declares a charge (phase 4), whether it has succeeded or not. This means that the tyranid unit does not benefit from cover. Let's then assume it has failed its charge roll. It is still considered as having charged, so it may be selected to fight, although it has no unit to fight with ("Any unit that charged or has models within 1" of an enemy unit can be chosen to fight in the Fight phase." notice the or), and thus it may then pile in and consolidate. This incidently applies to any unit, not just tyranids.
• Let's now assume that a unit is considered as having charged only after having made a successful charge roll. This means indeed that the tyranid unit still gets the benefit of cover for the purpose of overwatch, because it hasn't charged yet. If it then fails it's charge roll, it may not pile in nor consolidate. 

I personally have some significant issues with situation 1, so I'm going to assume the intended effect was 2, but I can't find anything that conclusively supports this in the rules as written. I expect this will be part of the codex's day 1 FaQ.

Exactly my thought which is why I too believe the intent was scenario 2. As it stands both scenarios need clarification and in the case of option 1 an Errata ideally.

[Gentlemanloser]

I think unles you have ways (and I know some units do) of increasinf the 3" Pile in move, there's not really any issues with option 1.

 

If you were within 1" originally, you can't declare a charge anyway.  And if you are over 3" away (where you can't fail your charge, unless destroyed by overwatch) you can't pile in either.

[TheWolfLord]

I think unles you have ways (and I know some units do) of increasinf the 3" Pile in move, there's not really any issues with option 1.

 

If you were within 1" originally, you can't declare a charge anyway. And if you are over 3" away (where you can't fail your charge, unless destroyed by overwatch) you can't pile in either.

Khorne Berzerkers spring to mind as an obvious issue. There's no way to avoid their attacks upto 10" away.

 

Even if they fail their charge they get to active once, pile in 3", Consolidate 3" and then activate again to pile in a further 3" then fight. Using the Chaos Stratagem to Fight for a third time they can charge up to 12" away and be guaranteed of fighting even if they fail their charge.

 

There are other issues too.

 

A character within Heroic Intervention range. Unit A doesn't want to fight the character so declares a charge again unit B. Unit A fails its charge and the character moves within 1". Unit A cannot fight against the character because they charged and didn't declare the character as a target.

 

I have 2 units A & B. I want to charge 2 enemy units C & D. I declare A against C and B against D. A fails the charge but B makes the charge against unit D.

If unit D is close enough it could pile in and consolidated into unit A. As unit A charged but its charge target was unit C it couldn't fight against Unit D.

 

Ragnar Blackmane has a 6" Heroic Intervention rule. A unit 7" away declares a charge but fails to roll high enough, Ragnar uses his 6" Heroic Intervention to move within 1" of the unit.

That unit counts as charging so gets to swing first even though they failed their charge.

 

 

That's 3 scenarios that came to me in a few minutes. There will be more and it adds levels of complexity and abuses that almost certainly wasnt intended.

[Gentlemanloser]

Is ragnars a 6" range and 6" move?

 

Heroic intervention is, weird anyway. Allow your characters to pile in in the enemy charge phase even if the enemy has done nothing in that phase an you are in range.

 

Bypassing overwatch as well.

 

It could probably use a little tightening itself.

[Toasterfree]

he has an HI range of 6" and moves 6"

[Ciler]

The Death Company blood angel dread could also do some nasty shenanigans, as it consolidates 6" (on top of a 3" pile in), meaning that it could conceivably engage a unit up to 10" away. Now, arguably, he couldn't fight but the other unit could fight back so it'd be a risky strategy, but if he's trying to engage a squishy unit anyway there's little to worry about and he puts himself away from ranged fire harm.

[Eddie Orlock]

So, we've wandered off into irresolvable speculation and wild tangents for their implications. A classic issue with OR threads and rumoured rules. I'm suspending this until release, when if someone wants this back open they'll contact us and we'll consider it.

 

In the mean time, I think I can make a probable guess at how this will eventually be resolved. It'll look like the second post in the thread, an interpretation that 'breaks' fewer elements of the game. I'd support this stance by noting that the first few sections on charging contain lots of conditional language like 'would be attacker' rather than shorter terminology like 'charger'.

 

From a more semantic stance, no matter how much someone talks about how they were going to do a thing, it's seldom stated that they did the thing until the thing is actually complete. I might tell my fellow mods that I'm going to lock this thread, but until I actually lock it, the thread isn't locked. If I had a heart attack while writing this, it'd only've been something I'd written about and intended to do.

 

Still, I'm sure when the book actually hits we'll have more information to work with.