Rumor thoughts: The one where a Primarch changes sides.

[crazyterran]

 

The Loyalists arent going to go traitor or give Guilliman the finger. If they have two braincells to rub in their head, they will at most question his status as Regent (though the fact he was the only one means they can hardly complain), which would be resolved by the returning Primarch and Guilliman paying the Emperor a visit.

Any of the loyalists would see what Guilliman is doing is the best that can be done, and all of them other than maybe the Lion would know that Guilliman is far better suited to the management of an intergalactic Imperium than they are. The Lion only wouldnt because of his pride, but I am sure Guilliman would just throw him the Warmaster bone like with what happened in Imperium Secundus.

If Leman Russ has turned into a giant werewolf, I could see him being his own 'Renegade but loyal' faction. Only give him the Space Wolves faction tag in game, so only the Space Wolves could bring him, since only they tolerate the Wulfen fluff wise.

The Khan could be leading some crazy ad hoc slave revolt fleet that includes Xenos and mutants who helped him escape Commoragh during its fall.

Guilliman has done a few things that the other primarch would blame him for. Breaking up their legions, making Primaries Marines, being received by xeno witchcraft etc etc. Sure now after he woke up and saw how much his "codex" and breaking up the legions made things worst, has he fixed things can't blame him as he was a meatcicle for awhile. He even says the Primaris are abominations, also when did he get approval from the other primarchs to make Primaris of their legions? Guilliman has overstepped his boundaries more than once and is now stomping on his brother feet. This is Guilliman flaw, similar to Magnus, he thinks he knows what is best and is arrogant toward other methods.

 

As for "only the SW tolerate the Wulfen". As much as I dislike the Wulfen fluff (and models) so far, the GK, Mechanicus, IF and a few other have credited the Wulfen as essential in the defense of Fenris system, and Cadia plus numerous rumors of them defending other places. They are not only tolerated but have been greeted rather warmly. Sure they won't be going to any parades, even the SW keep them in the basement, but they are accepted. That said I will be rather disappointed if Russ comes back as a Wulfen.

 

As Urriak Urruk said, the Lion and Russ agree on more things that not and only their honor (as different as it is) is what keep them at odds. Also with many of his other comments. I see if anything happens it will be a N. imperium and S. Imperium where N is controlled by Russ, Lion, Sanguinor (non-codex) and S is controlled by Guilliman and 2 other, my bet is dorn and vulkan. This is only due to the new map (see Dark Imperium map) there is only 6 listed SM "homeworlds" BA, SW, DA, IF, UM, Sallies. Why not have the others listed unless they weren't essential to the map.

 

 

Half the Primarchs agreed to the codex, the other half (other than Russ) were won over to the idea. Dorn and Guilliman came to the agreement after the Council of Terra and the Imperial Navy escalated the issue, but neither of them fought over it. Dorn was emotional at the time, and his self hatred and loathing blinded him. People seem to forget that the Imperium held together for 10,000 years, which is almost longer than civilized human history as it is now. The problem with the Codex was that the chapters and the Imperium were not flexible with it, and it didn't evolve to adapt to new threats. Smaller, more elite strike forces ended up being able to cover more ground and insulate the Imperium from another mass uprising - could you imagine if a influential and charismatic leader like Lufgt Huron had managed to ascend the ladders of the Dark Angels legion, rather than the single Chapter that he did? Every single traitor or fallen chapter is a singing praise to the Codex working and saving the Imperium from an even greater disaster.

 

 

People seem to forget, or ignore, the key part that everything Guilliman is doing is approved by the Emperor. The Emperor made him Regent. The Emperor demanded a new crusade, and that the Primarch(s). Not even the Lion will tell Guilliman to eff off without at least first going to see the Emperor, which will resolve the problem.

 

If there is a loyalist that changes his coat, it won't be because of Guilliman and him holding the Imperium together. 

 

Yeah Guilliman throws the Lion a "bone" and gets punched in the kisser instantly.

 

The Warmaster position granted by the Emperor is completely different from being "granted" by Guilliman. They are equals. It's insulting.

 

Roboute Guilliman is the Regent as appointed by the Emperor. He didn't crown himself - Guilliman met with the Emperor, and, despite not liking what he heard, is enacting the Emperor's will. 

 

Besides, the Lion was happyish with it in Secundus, and the Guilliman and Sanguinius were not the Regent as appointed by the Emperor. If Guilliman drags the Lion before the Emperor, who knows what the Emperor will want of the Lion?

 

I expect, whomever comes back next, will be to busy planting his boot knee deep into Chaos behinds, and none of them are stupid enough to split the Imperium when everything is going to hell. 

Edited November 3, 2017 by crazyterran

[Bryan Blaire]

You can like Guilliman if you wish, but not everyone agrees with the happy-go-lucky version of the metastory or that his returning has done much to better :cuss all for the Imperium, much less "hold it together". A fellow Primarch choosing not to follow what Guilliman says just because Guilliman claims the Emperor made him Regent is very possible and would be very believable, and not every single one of them is necessarily going to just follow a dead guy in a chair because a 1000 psykers a day feed a battery that tells them they should. For all we know, the next idea to come out in the metastory just might be that another Primarch stands before the Golden Throne and gets nothing and pronounces the Emperor dead.

 

There's a little too much blind trust in your scenario for it to be Warhammer 40K and not near enough paranoia or depth. ;)

 

If they really wanted to add some interest and depth to the metastory, they will have the next Primarch show up on a fringe area where Primaris tech has just reached a couple of Chapters, and all the news is garbled rumors. Primarch meets Primaris, declares them corrupt/abominations in the sight of the Emperor, rallies like minded Chapter Masters and begins to wage war on the "traitor Chapters" making use of them. That would be more like a grimdark story. Even once they find out it was a brother that ordered the creation of the Primaris, they would still only have to go "My bad, but I'm a Primarch" and they could join up, but the scars would already be there, damage done.

[Urriak Urruk]

\

 

Yeah Guilliman throws the Lion a "bone" and gets punched in the kisser instantly.

 

The Warmaster position granted by the Emperor is completely different from being "granted" by Guilliman. They are equals. It's insulting.

 

Roboute Guilliman is the Regent as appointed by the Emperor. He didn't crown himself - Guilliman met with the Emperor, and, despite not liking what he heard, is enacting the Emperor's will. 

 

Besides, the Lion was happyish with it in Secundus, and the Guilliman and Sanguinius were not the Regent as appointed by the Emperor. If Guilliman drags the Lion before the Emperor, who knows what the Emperor will want of the Lion?

 

I expect, whomever comes back next, will be to busy planting his boot knee deep into Chaos behinds, and none of them are stupid enough to split the Imperium when everything is going to hell. 

 

 

The Lion has only ok with secundus because the three Primarchs were getting three distinct but sort-of equal roles. And the Lion still disobeyed an order against using "excessive force," as he believes he's always right so screw orders (he got the job done, can't blame him really).

 

I'll quote the Lion here; "Insult me again, brother, and theoretically I will punch you in your practical face."

 

The Lion does not  around. If he comes back and learns the Emperor made Guilliman regent, he's either not going to believe it, or he'll make up some excuse saying "He made you regent of the Imperium, but not of me AND MY LEGION!"

 

Now direct civil war against Guilliman is over the top and taking his character too far. But I definitely see him prosecuting his own campaign independently of Guilliman's orders in the Dark Imperium, and Guilliman resigning himself to knowing he's never going to be able to command the Lion.

 

Because no one commands the lion except for the Master of Mankind himself.

[Guest]

Do we have proof RG was appointed by the Emperor? What's to say Lion doesn't go in and say "Big E said I am Regent now. He only made RG regent until another son came back. Oh yeah RG is also a heretic revived and controlled by Xenos magic. Also the 500 world's should be free to rule themselves."

 

WH40k should cast doubt if everything is true. RG just coming in and everything being simply accepted just makes it so very Mary Sue and never feel like the Imperium is in danger.

Edited November 3, 2017 by Caldersson

[DuskRaider]

Nobody appointed Guilliman, the Emperor is a dead and mummified corpse sitting on a throne of lies.

 

As far as a Primarch changing sides, I do see Lion El'Johnson rebelling and attempting to create his own Imperium of sorts, but otherwise... I mean, who else do you have that's really plausible to come back? Dorn and Sanguinius are just dead. GW could pull some shenanigans to bring Russ, Corax, the Khan or Vulkan back but having them mysteriously vanish is part of the lore and I find it highly unlikely any of them are actually alive at this point (save Vulkan due to being a Perpetual). Actually yeah... I can even see Vulkan being a possibility to come back for Loyalists. Say the Salamanders solve his intergalactic Blue's Clues and he's at the end. In all honesty though, I think this rumor is bunk.

[crazyterran]

Man, there is going to be some salty tears when the next Dark Angels release is Primaris Jetbikes, and the Blood Angels are assault version of Inceptors, heh. Fluff wise, the Primarch that comes back might curl his lip in disgust at the Primaris, but Primarchs did that with Destroyer Squads or other such things during the Crusade - it didnt stop them from using them, though.

 

The Lion couldnt really complain about Xenos, considering he has Xenos running around his legions old fortress monastary that have been taking care of him for the last ten thousand years.

 

The most inter Imperial friction is going to be one Primarch going and doing his own thing, while Guilliman deals with the big picture. Its not like their overall goals would not align. The one that would make the most sense to do his own thing and disregard Guilliman is the Lion, since the Lion is always right in his own mind. Besides, the Lion at the head of a crusade of Dark Angels and successors(including Primaris, since we know the Dark Angels have taken them in), plunging into the war and reclaiming Cadia or something to that effect would be pretty baller.

 

All of the Primarchs except the Lion, when they sit down to talk with Guilliman about the plan of action and whats going on, would listen, nod their heads, and ask how they could help save the Imperium. They might not agree with everything, and could prosecute their own campaigns and would generally be left to do their own thing just like in the Great Crusade, but the goal is fairly clear.

 

After all, even Russ accepted that Guilliman was the Lord Commander after the Heresy. The only issue was the codex, which he ignored and Guilliman didn't do anything to stop him - his only issue with Dorn seemed to be publically disagreeing and making a fuss over it. Other than that one issue, Dorn and Guilliman respected each other greatly - Dorn even wishes Guilliman was there on Terra leading the defense during the Master of Mankind novel! On Guillimans part, he actively allowed a relatively low ranking member of the Imperial Fists help redesign the defenses of Macragge since he acknoweldges his brother and his progeny are better at building strongpoints.

[Cpt_Reaper]

I had this exact discussion with my friend the other day.

 

The Lion will turn to Chaos. Not immediately, but with every loyalist primarch they'll hint to his turning. Then bam! Chaos Lion.

 

He is the easiest target for poor writing. I also have it in writing that I'm quitting 40k when it happens.

[helterskelter]

Aren't the watchers there because they abhor chaos? Threatening to kill him at one point in the heresy novels if chaos was even so much as an idea? I mean granted everyone forgot this when it came to the whole fenris arc and the changeling did his thing, as much as I'm loathe to admit it, he wouldn't turn to chaos. However he is stupid (see Perturabo/tchulcha) so I could see something in a tzeentchian manipulation plot

[Cpt_Reaper]

It's simply that he is an easy target for bad writing. That's all. GW will end the "questionable loyalty" memes by answering them.

 

"Lol jokes he's bad"

[The Unseen]

Way to many people in this thread are taking their distaste of Guilliman and his actions (or the terrible writing that the metastory has currently enjoyed, or in my case the fact that there even is a meta story at all, this is Warhammer 40,000, a galaxy at war, not Heresy Boogaloo 2.0 or Gman and his heroic saturday morning exploits for christs sake) and trying to apply it in universe where it makes no sense.

 

Any Loyalist, I'll say it again for those in the back, ANY LOYALIST PRIMARCH who returns will be very careful to keep any misgivings they have about the current state of the Imperium of man, or Gmans recent actions, behind closed doors in the closest of councils.

 

To do otherwise would literally hand mankind over to Chaos on a sliver platter, and it makes absolutely no sense.

 

"Hurr durr I'm the lion and I should be first, so I'm going to drag the Imperium into another huge civil war during the largest chaos incursion since the heresy because I'm a spoiled jeolous child"

 

No, I have to trust that even GW wouldn't make a character act that moronic.

 

Would it be in character for the lion to chew Gman up one side and down the other in private over this mess? Absolutely.

But after the heresy and it's aftermath, none of the them are going to do things that further destabilize an empire already on the brink of ruin.

 

Again, I don't like, no, I DESPISE the current meta story, it reeks of a design decision made for money, not for story, off the popularity of the Heresy series, and GW desperately trying to come up with ways to sell yet more space marines.

40k wasn't a story, it was a magnificently ruined galaxy spanning setting for stories to take place in.

Now a galaxy wide war is focused entirely on like a half dozen characters who we are told are super duper important even if we haven't heard of them ever until now "cough cawl deus ex machina cough".

 

Bringing the Primarchs back was a mistake brought about from the desire to sell big plastic kits, so I doubt GW are going to shoot sales in the foot by pissing off a bunch of the people who would've bought said big plastic kit by making a loyalist go renegade.

[Urriak Urruk]

Way to many people in this thread are taking their distaste of Guilliman and his actions (or the terrible writing that the metastory has currently enjoyed, or in my case the fact that there even is a meta story at all, this is Warhammer 40,000, a galaxy at war, not Heresy Boogaloo 2.0 or Gman and his heroic saturday morning exploits for christs sake) and trying to apply it in universe where it makes no sense.

 

Any Loyalist, I'll say it again for those in the back, ANY LOYALIST PRIMARCH who returns will be very careful to keep any misgivings they have about the current state of the Imperium of man, or Gmans recent actions, behind closed doors in the closest of councils.

 

To do otherwise would literally hand mankind over to Chaos on a sliver platter, and it makes absolutely no sense.

 

"Hurr durr I'm the lion and I should be first, so I'm going to drag the Imperium into another huge civil war during the largest chaos incursion since the heresy because I'm a spoiled jeolous child"

 

No, I have to trust that even GW wouldn't make a character act that moronic.

 

Would it be in character for the lion to chew Gman up one side and down the other in private over this mess? Absolutely.

But after the heresy and it's aftermath, none of the them are going to do things that further destabilize an empire already on the brink of ruin.

 

Again, I don't like, no, I DESPISE the current meta story, it reeks of a design decision made for money, not for story, off the popularity of the Heresy series, and GW desperately trying to come up with ways to sell yet more space marines.

40k wasn't a story, it was a magnificently ruined galaxy spanning setting for stories to take place in.

Now a galaxy wide war is focused entirely on like a half dozen characters who we are told are super duper important even if we haven't heard of them ever until now "cough cawl deus ex machina cough".

 

Bringing the Primarchs back was a mistake brought about from the desire to sell big plastic kits, so I doubt GW are going to shoot sales in the foot by pissing off a bunch of the people who would've bought said big plastic kit by making a loyalist go renegade.

 

A few people here aren't arguing the Lion is going to start a civil war. I've been arguing he's just not going to do what Guilliman says, and that Guilliman knows the Lion isn't going to obey his orders anyway so never makes any to him.

 

So the Lion just goes off with his remade legion and goes campaigning in the Dark Imperium. He's not going renegade, but he's not bending the knee either. Similar situation for Russ.

[slitth]

I see a lot of ways to a primarch to turn from the traditional faction.

Alpharius would be the most obvious one because there is already doubt about his loyalty.

But it would be too obvious so they would not do it.

 

I could see a "loyal" primarch turn for the imperium because of faith.

Even Rogal Dorn may turn because he feels the imperium has be conquered from within by false faith.

 

I could also see Konrad Curze return as a hunter of chaos. It would be in his nature to hunt people that are "bad".

But that doesn't mean he will join the imperium.

 

It all depends on their reason for turning from their traditional faction.

Personally I would prefer a more nuanced view of 40K.

The hole chaos vs imperium thing it getting a little old, and there is a lot story to be found in the gray zone between two factions.

[Claws and Effect]

If Guilliman is smart, if and when his brothers start returning, he'll avoid giving them direct orders and just tell them what needs done and let them accomplish it their own way. I mean, he knows that his brothers that stayed loyal are all competent commanders and shouldn't feel any need to micromanage them, especially since he should also be aware that several of them would resent it (Lion, Khan, Russ). 

 

Guilliman is actually probably the best Primarch to rally around, as none of his loyal brothers really have a whole lot against him. Out of all of them, only Russ flat out ignored the Codex. Even the Dark Angels at least pay it lip service. The Templars ignore it, but that wasn't Dorn's doing, it was Sigismund's. 

 

In my opinion, only Sanguinius would have been a better choice, and he is pretty dead and unlikely to come back in any form other than occasional warp entity guest appearances. 

[Bryan Blaire]

I don't know why people are acting like it would be the Lion that would be the one to have issues. ANY Primarch could be written with a reason to disagree with Guilliman's actions for any number of things. Nothing says it has to be the Lion.

 

Vulkan may disagree with the fact that humans are treated with such a lack of respect, Russ may abhor the Primaris, etc.

 

Folks are also assuming that all Primarchs will come back and instantly have all the information of what has been going on, which means the same mistake of a "small universe, universal knowledge, too small scale" thinking that people complain GW does has been occurring here as well.

 

A Primarch could easily start on the edge of the galaxy fighting some enemy and slowly start coming across pieces of information that they put together in incorrect ways that lead some them to believe that the Imperium has already been taken over by Chaos and institutes a "crusade" to get to the bottom of it. People in our world do the wrong things for the right reasons and the right things for the wrong reasons all the time, and if you assume that the Heresy shows possible failings and human-ness in the Primarchs, then the same occurrences would be possible in them.

[Lexington]

Folks are also assuming that all Primarchs will come back and instantly have all the information of what has been going on, which means the same mistake of a "small universe, universal knowledge, too small scale" thinking that people complain GW does has been occurring here as well.

If this is the way the Studio writes things (and, let's face it, it totally is), why is it a "mistake" to assume they'll keep doing it?