The Great Devourer

[Vel'Cona]

 

Tallarn might well be a winner here.

 

Nothing really new, there.  They easily got the strongest options in the 'dex no matter who you face.

 

That being said, not sure how scary 'Nids will really be.  Don't get me wrong, there's a lot of fear about Eldar right now but IG has a very strong codex even after repeated nerfs/erratas, so it will mostly be a matter of adapting to the new tricks.  One thing to keep in mind is that if you love spamming Psykers, 'Nids will punish you pretty hard.  Since GW has rumoured to be restricting Smite spam before the close of 2017, I'd say it's a good time to start looking away from this strategy anyway.

[olcottr]

Conscripts are still excellent against Melee armies even with Morale nerf. Why, because Morale Phase is after Fight phase (and Consolidate).  The CC unit is likely to kill the entire 10 man infantry squad, rendering morale moot.  A 20 man unit should give you another turn to shoot, even if they all die in the Morale Phase.

[Withershadow]

 

 

Tallarn might well be a winner here.

 

Nothing really new, there.  They easily got the strongest options in the 'dex no matter who you face.

 

That being said, not sure how scary 'Nids will really be.  Don't get me wrong, there's a lot of fear about Eldar right now but IG has a very strong codex even after repeated nerfs/erratas, so it will mostly be a matter of adapting to the new tricks.  One thing to keep in mind is that if you love spamming Psykers, 'Nids will punish you pretty hard.  Since GW has rumoured to be restricting Smite spam before the close of 2017, I'd say it's a good time to start looking away from this strategy anyway.

 

Eh, I don't know... mobility is very powerful but difficult to accurately assess, as it really depends on the opponent and the objectives you're going for.  It's definitely the best doctrine if you want to use a lot of non-artillery/hellhound vehicles.  If you're running mostly artillery and Russes, the Cadian doctrine is also a great selection... in fact the artillery tanks would prefer the Cadian doctrine, while Russes basically trade mobility for supreme accuracy (full re-rolls available when not moving and given order).  For me it basically breaks down like this:

Gryphonne Chimeras, Scout Sentinels, Malcadors - want to be Tallarn

Manticores, Basilisks, Wyverns - want to be Cadian

Leman Russes, Hydras - either one works

 

I would say an honorable mention goes to Valhallans if you're planning on running a lot of hulls, as that durability can make a big difference.

 

The same breakdown applies to infantry too:

Heavy Weapon Squads, Artillery crews, backfield command squads (mortars, heavy weapons, or grenade launchers) - want to be Cadian

Special Weapon Squads, Veterans, suicide command squads - want to be Tallarn

Infantry Squads - either works depending on how you equip them

 

I would also like to mention Krieg here, and not merely as an honorary note, but as a genuine competitor for the above two.  With the changes to Commissars, immunity to shooting morale is a very nice boost for your infantry (and makes combined squad stratagem usable again). The grenadier stratagem and frag/krak grenades on all the infantry is also a nice combo.  And when speaking about Tyranids and their melee threat, even Catachans have to whistle in awe at the Death Korps:

1. Everyone has WS3+.

2. Regimental banners add +1 attack which stacks with priests.

3. Commissars have Krieg regiment keyword, so there is no debate about whether their Ld bonus stacks with the banner.

4. They can bring Inquisitors or other Imperial stuff in their lists without losing their bonuses.

5. Quartermasters are hilarious.

 

I wanted to mention Without Mercy (turns lasguns into pistol 2), but I feel it's kind of redundant with Fix Bayonets given the potential bonuses above.  I would gladly trade either for one for Take Aim so I don't have to take Yarrick all the time.  In fact, Duty unto death is another somewhat redundant melee-oriented order.  If Krieg had the standard Imperial Guard orders and then Duty Onto Death as a bespoke order for Death Riders, I would be ecstatic.

[Imperator Deus]

Most Nid armies are in CC on turn two so stating more firepower is mostly irrelevant. You really need to deploy/counter deploy perhaps depths of fire to sacrifice a few units to pigeon hole the army and shoot it piece meal once your lines break. Regardless Ork and Nids are the only armies that have been giving me issues this edition due to there Horde/CC punch, but it is very cinematic each and every battle and that is what makes it worth it!

 

Krash   

Turn two?!?! My buddy is charging me with 3 or 4 units (depending on charge rolls), on turn 1! Not to mention the shooting; the last game we played he got the first turn and killed Pask, two Armoured Sentinels and two Infantry Squads. It doesn't seem like much, but it was almost 25% of my total points. Between the Venomthropes, Malenthropes, and Tervigons respawning 10 gaunts per turn, I just couldn't keep up. The game went to turn 5, but I was pretty much tabled. The Index Tyranids could spit out a ton of mortal wounds, and based on the previews so far, they're going to put out even more mortal wounds. Maybe it'll be better when Chapter Approved comes out and you roll off for the first turn, but it hurts when he has nearly the same model count as me, but he can deploy in 14 or 15 drops, while it takes me 28, lol!

[Cryptix]

 

Most Nid armies are in CC on turn two so stating more firepower is mostly irrelevant. You really need to deploy/counter deploy perhaps depths of fire to sacrifice a few units to pigeon hole the army and shoot it piece meal once your lines break. Regardless Ork and Nids are the only armies that have been giving me issues this edition due to there Horde/CC punch, but it is very cinematic each and every battle and that is what makes it worth it!

 

Krash   

Turn two?!?! My buddy is charging me with 3 or 4 units (depending on charge rolls), on turn 1! Not to mention the shooting; the last game we played he got the first turn and killed Pask, two Armoured Sentinels and two Infantry Squads. It doesn't seem like much, but it was almost 25% of my total points. Between the Venomthropes, Malenthropes, and Tervigons respawning 10 gaunts per turn, I just couldn't keep up. The game went to turn 5, but I was pretty much tabled. The Index Tyranids could spit out a ton of mortal wounds, and based on the previews so far, they're going to put out even more mortal wounds. Maybe it'll be better when Chapter Approved comes out and you roll off for the first turn, but it hurts when he has nearly the same model count as me, but he can deploy in 14 or 15 drops, while it takes me 28, lol!

 

...Can I see his list? Considering the lack of transports for Nids they will always lose in a drop v drop for hordes.

[Finkmilkana]

If guard plays infantry squads or massed HWT, the tyranid will finish first in my experience. If the guard plays conscripts (or very verhicle heavy), the nid will finish first. They might not have transports, but they usually field max squads which cost more per drop.

Especially since Guard currently usually doesn’t take transports for their troops either, not worth it.

[CoffeeGrunt]

My current 1500pt Nid list is only 9 drops, and four of them are Reserves.

[CoffeeGrunt]

Additionally, beware Lictors. Their Pheromone Trail stratagem makes them able to pull Genestealers out of Reserves and set them up within 6" of itself. Makes a Genestealer ambush much easier without having to pay the odds for a Trygon. Be very wary of that hitting a flank.

[NatBrannigan]

I've never even come close to going first (except by rolling that beautiful 6) with Guard and I don't see it changing against Nids unless their army lists have changed considerably since last I faced them (which is a very realistic possibility of course).

 

Guard and 'Nids potentially both want to be putting down a lot of cheap Infantry, say 100, but for a Guard player that can be 8-10 drops where for the Nid player it's 3-4 drops. Bigger squads of little gribblies.

 

Now obviously there are list for both armies out there that poo poo that theory but I'd certainly assume I'm going last against anyone with my own army, and that's actually pretty balanced between Infantry and more expensive things. (Edit: Coffee grunt clearly looking over my shoulder as I wrote this...)

 

'Nids will beat us in combat mostly, but I haven't found anything that my Bullgryns can't ....Maul... (oooh that's bad, sorry) in combat so let them charge and kill whatever squads are unlucky enough to be at the front and then the fun begins. Nothing revolutionary there!

 

Famous Imperial Guard commander Jonny Rico (Private to Colonel in like what, a week? Great film!) has the best advice really. "Kill them! Kill them all!" Inspiring stuff worthy of Macharius himself..

 

Edit: That Lictor stratagem sounds really good Coffee! Very excited to play against 'Nids, every new codex GW put out is great at the moment. What a time to be alive...

Edited November 3, 2017 by NatBrannigan

[TheShredder]

 

 

 

Tallarn might well be a winner here.

 

Nothing really new, there.  They easily got the strongest options in the 'dex no matter who you face.

 

That being said, not sure how scary 'Nids will really be.  Don't get me wrong, there's a lot of fear about Eldar right now but IG has a very strong codex even after repeated nerfs/erratas, so it will mostly be a matter of adapting to the new tricks.  One thing to keep in mind is that if you love spamming Psykers, 'Nids will punish you pretty hard.  Since GW has rumoured to be restricting Smite spam before the close of 2017, I'd say it's a good time to start looking away from this strategy anyway.

 

Eh, I don't know... mobility is very powerful but difficult to accurately assess, as it really depends on the opponent and the objectives you're going for.  It's definitely the best doctrine if you want to use a lot of non-artillery/hellhound vehicles.  If you're running mostly artillery and Russes, the Cadian doctrine is also a great selection... in fact the artillery tanks would prefer the Cadian doctrine, while Russes basically trade mobility for supreme accuracy (full re-rolls available when not moving and given order).  For me it basically breaks down like this:

Gryphonne Chimeras, Scout Sentinels, Malcadors - want to be Tallarn

Manticores, Basilisks, Wyverns - want to be Cadian

Leman Russes, Hydras - either one works

 

I would say an honorable mention goes to Valhallans if you're planning on running a lot of hulls, as that durability can make a big difference.

 

The same breakdown applies to infantry too:

Heavy Weapon Squads, Artillery crews, backfield command squads (mortars, heavy weapons, or grenade launchers) - want to be Cadian

Special Weapon Squads, Veterans, suicide command squads - want to be Tallarn

Infantry Squads - either works depending on how you equip them

 

I would also like to mention Krieg here, and not merely as an honorary note, but as a genuine competitor for the above two.  With the changes to Commissars, immunity to shooting morale is a very nice boost for your infantry (and makes combined squad stratagem usable again). The grenadier stratagem and frag/krak grenades on all the infantry is also a nice combo.  And when speaking about Tyranids and their melee threat, even Catachans have to whistle in awe at the Death Korps:

1. Everyone has WS3+.

2. Regimental banners add +1 attack which stacks with priests.

3. Commissars have Krieg regiment keyword, so there is no debate about whether their Ld bonus stacks with the banner.

4. They can bring Inquisitors or other Imperial stuff in their lists without losing their bonuses.

5. Quartermasters are hilarious.

 

I wanted to mention Without Mercy (turns lasguns into pistol 2), but I feel it's kind of redundant with Fix Bayonets given the potential bonuses above.  I would gladly trade either for one for Take Aim so I don't have to take Yarrick all the time.  In fact, Duty unto death is another somewhat redundant melee-oriented order.  If Krieg had the standard Imperial Guard orders and then Duty Onto Death as a bespoke order for Death Riders, I would be ecstatic.

 

 

Agreed about Cadia being just as powerful as Tallarn, depending on your list.

 

Your points regarding Death Korps are very interesting indeed. Yeah, the loss of Commissars from regular IG has made their ability a lot better by comparison. 

 

That said, I still wonder if it's worth it. Is it really better than, for example, using Valhallan? Yes, they don't outright ignore shooting casualties like the Death Korps, but they're also cheaper and have access to the much better FRFSRF order. 

 

I suppose I'm still on the fence about how much morale mitigation is worth for regular infantry (not Conscripts). 

 

 

As an aside, it always struck me as odd that Death Korps desperately want to get into melee . . . yet that's also the only time they're not immune to morale. 

 

I don't know, just sounds like a recipe for a scene right out of Monty Python. 

[Mitchverr]

When it comes to DKK and melee, I always use venner and a command squad with regimental flag and usually a squad with platoon flag, so he effectively makes everyone in a 25 inch diameter bubble LD 11, meaning the squad is effectively dead anyway by the time you are going to risk failing a test.

 

There is also the death riders, if you setup "traditionally" with them and wait for your enemy to come at you turn 1 then go for a charge after softening them up, a group of 10 will kill something like 17/18 gaunts on the charge if they cant get at the big monsters (they get 4 attacks each remember, on charge half are lance but half are also STR4 claws). 6/7 of them will stand a good chance of (on the charge) outright killing any MC in their attack. If they hit the little guys, they get a 5+ FNP too iirc.

 

If you go traditional and keep a regimental flag near them, they get a +1 attack but.... I am a little off on this side, as the mount technically makes attacks too on this model, so how does the extra attack apply? Is it rider only? Choice? Both?

 

I am playing around with the idea of using 25 death riders in my army (1 officer, 1 command squad, 4 squads of 5, this entire force can outflank if needed or be deployed traditionally depending on how i wish to field them) which is 468 poins if i remember right and can be taken as an outrider detatchment for any1 wanting to do so (they have their own hq choice) but am just not sure if thats too many points into 1 part of my force so to speak, sure, they will rip hell through whatever they hit, but the problem is surviving to hit the enemy and hopefully the combat phase to keep fighitng.

 

 

note: Man, I wish FW let the command squad bring the regimental banner like in the vraks book, no banner really bums me out, my conversion model is no longer giving a fun little bubble anymore.

Edited November 3, 2017 by Mitchverr

[micahwc]

@Natbranigan,

 

In the book it was Private to Lieutenant over the course of surviving several conflicts and then passing Officer Candidates School before being given command of the Roughnecks, and finding out his father survived Buenos Aires, and enlisted in the Mobile Infantry before being assigned to the Roughnecks.

 

Carl wasn't psychic, he was a gifted engineer who died when the bugs attacked Pluto.

 

Dizzy Flores was a dude who dies on like page 2 of the book.

 

The bugs used weapons and had space craft, though they did have a rigid caste system which consisted of warriors, workers, brains, and queens.

 

The mobile infantry had power armor akin to what Masterchief would wear, and dropped from space orbit onto the planets surface after being shot out of a really big gun.

 

Carmen had a shaved head, because long flowing locks don't mix well with zero gravity in space.

 

There was no football game.

 

Raczak was the commander of the Roughnecks, and the teacher who asked about Nagasaki was a retired Colonel named Dubois.

 

Mobile Infantry were not coed, so no coed showers.

 

 

The scene where the guy asks about why they have to learn how to throw a knife is actually in the book. As is the scene where Zim gets beat in hand to hand by a cadet(who then gets placed in charge of hand to hand training the other cadets). Overall, the scenes with Zim where the most correct to the book.

 

Edit: I like both the book and the movie, but that's after years of coming to grips with the movie. I saw it in theaters after literally reading the book multiple times in the years preceding the release of the movie. At the time the movie was a huge disappointment, although I have grown to enjoy it for what it is since then. I also still enjoy the book. It was Heinlen's thesis (as a former Naval officer) on how the government should only be run by military Veterans.

Edited November 3, 2017 by micahwc

[CoffeeGrunt]

Yeah, I think Verhoeven famously disliked that idea of what is quite literally a fascist government by the dictionary definition, but that's not within the remit of this topic nor this forum, and is severely off-topic. 

[Withershadow]

Service guarantees citizenship!

 

Death in duty to the Emperor's is its own reward!

 

40K is still way more hardcore/totalitarian. :D

[Withershadow]

 

 

 

Tallarn might well be a winner here.

Nothing really new, there. They easily got the strongest options in the 'dex no matter who you face.

 

That being said, not sure how scary 'Nids will really be. Don't get me wrong, there's a lot of fear about Eldar right now but IG has a very strong codex even after repeated nerfs/erratas, so it will mostly be a matter of adapting to the new tricks. One thing to keep in mind is that if you love spamming Psykers, 'Nids will punish you pretty hard. Since GW has rumoured to be restricting Smite spam before the close of 2017, I'd say it's a good time to start looking away from this strategy anyway.

I doubt they will do too much with smite spam considering the zoanthropes are presented as the Nids' artillery. The forthcoming Thousand Sons will also likely lean on it for heavy lifting. Where was this said?

 

Even smite aside, there are lots of good powers in every new book. It was the case for Guard, Eldar and Chaos, and will be for bugs too. Some degree of psychic defense is a good bet against most armies you will face this edition. Thankfully astropaths are super cheap, so in cases where the opponent has shut down psychic powers and is not using any of his own, they are still not a painful investment to make.

[Halfpint100]

Astropath psychic maelstrom is hilarious! 15 points for many mortal wounds. I used one in my last game and did 4 wounds (unlikely I know) and killed 2 termies

[Cryptix]

Err about that, don't try it if you're fighting a Kronos army...