How well does Sigismund or Sevatar fare...

[b1soul]

against a Custodian Guard squad member, a Shield Captain, or a Tribune on the tabletop?

 

Just curious how the Inferno rules would play out.

 

EDIT: Also, do the rules confirm that Valdor is primarch-level?

Edited November 2, 2017 by b1soul

[Charlo]

 

against a Custodian Guard squad member, a Shield Captain, or a Tribune on the tabletop?

Just curious how the Inferno rules would play out.

EDIT: Also, do the rules confirm that Valdor is primarch-level?

 

Valdor is a small step below Primarch, but his wargear means he will eat anything alive just as easily as one (even vehicles!). I've seen reports of him slaying the likes of Alpharius which is very plausible.

 

Sevetar will have his back-passage filled by even a shield-captain or better. They can get AP2 at higher initiative with more attacks that hit easier. Meanwhile sevetar needs to rend them to force them down to a 3++ at worst. A normal Custodian won't really hurt him unless they get the charge. A Hetaeron Guard will be able to chop him up fairly easily but it'll be a closer fight.

 

Sigismund is a tougher one, because of eternal warrior and instant death on his attacks combined with the forced re-roll on invulns he'll be able to hold his own against Custodes characters (negating the re-rollable 3++ they sometimes sport). I think the Custodes may edge out though as Siggy is only rocking a 4++. He is also a higher WS7 whereas Custodes are only WS6, but the Custodes HQs will be hitting first at I6 Sigismund hits easier but the Custodes will usually wound easier. Valdor though can fight him at his own game forcing invulns to be re-rolled, has WS7 and more wounds to fall back on. Sigismund will of course however murder most rank and file Custodes.

 

Hope that helps!

[b1soul]

 

Valdor is a small step below Primarch, but his wargear means he will eat anything alive just as easily as one (even vehicles!). I've seen reports of him slaying the likes of Alpharius which is very plausible.

 

Sevetar will have his back-passage filled by even a shield-captain or better. They can get AP2 at higher initiative with more attacks that hit easier. Meanwhile sevetar needs to rend them to force them down to a 3++ at worst. A normal Custodian won't really hurt him unless they get the charge. A Hetaeron Guard will be able to chop him up fairly easily but it'll be a closer fight.

 

Sigismund is a tougher one, because of eternal warrior and instant death on his attacks combined with the forced re-roll on invulns he'll be able to hold his own against Custodes characters (negating the re-rollable 3++ they sometimes sport). I think the Custodes may edge out though as Siggy is only rocking a 4++. He is also a higher WS7 whereas Custodes are only WS6, but the Custodes HQs will be hitting first at I6 Sigismund hits easier but the Custodes will usually wound easier. Valdor though can fight him at his own game forcing invulns to be re-rolled, has WS7 and more wounds to fall back on. Sigismund will of course however murder most rank and file Custodes.

 

Hope that helps!

 

Exactly the sort of assessment I was looking for...cheers

[SixOfOne]

It's important to remember that Sigismund only causes instant death and invul re-rolls when fighting in a challenge. Against a shield captain w. Shield, familiar, digital lasers and Paragon Spear (in a vacuum).

 

Sigismund attacks 4 times, hits 2 times, wounds 1.32 times and causes 0.11 wounds after saves (increasing to 0.44 in a challenge)

 

The Captain attacks 6 times (generating 1 extra attack), hits 3.5 times, wounds 2.9 times, causing 1.45 wounds after saves.

 

So, from this it will take 3 rounds for both the Captain and Sigismund to kill each other (Sigismunds instant death). However, as the Captain is I6 he will kill Sigismund before the opposite occurs. 

 

Against Valdor:

 

Valdor attacks 6 times (generating 1 extra attack), hits 3.5 times, wounds 2.9 times, causing 2.175 wounds (Half of these are ID) after saves

 

Sigismund attacks 4 times, hits 2 times, wounds 1.32 times, causing 0.66 wounds after saves

 

So, in this situation Valdor will kill Sigismund in 3 rounds.

 

Sevatar against a Hetaeron w. Paragon blade and Shield

 

Sevatar attacks first, hitting 2.5 times, wounding 1.25 times (causing 0.21 rends), causing 0.17 regular wounds and 0.1 rending wounds

 

The Hetaeron attacks 3 times, hits 1.5 times, wounds 1.245 times, causing 0.62 wounds after saves (w. 0.1 of these being ID).

 

So, Hetaeron will kill Sevatar easily unless he gets lucky with rending.

 

My maths my also be wrong slightly (I'm a history student).

Edited November 14, 2017 by SixOfOne

[dicebod]

It's important to remember that Sigismund only causes instant death and invul re-rolls when fighting in a challenge. Against a shield captain w. Shield, familiar, digital lasers and Paragon Spear (in a vacuum).

 

Sigismund attacks 4 times, hits 2 times, wounds 1.32 times and causes 0.11 wounds after saves (increasing to 0.44 in a challenge)

 

The Captain attacks 6 times (generating 1 extra attack), hits 3.5 times, wounds 2.9 times, causing 1.45 wounds after saves.

 

So, from this it will take 3 rounds for both the Captain and Sigismund to kill each other (Sigismunds instant death). However, as the Captain is I6 he will kill Sigismund before the opposite occurs. 

 

Against Valdor:

 

Valdor attacks 6 times (generating 1 extra attack), hits 3.5 times, wounds 2.9 times, causing 1.81 wounds after saves

 

Sigismund attacks 4 times, hits 2 times, wounds 1.32 times, causing 0.66 wounds after saves

 

So, in this situation Valdor will kill Sigismund in 3 rounds.

 

Sevatar against a Hetaeron w. Paragon blade and Shield

 

Sevatar attacks first, hitting 2.5 times, wounding 1.25 times (causing 0.21 rends), causing 0.17 regular wounds and 0.1 rending wounds

 

The Hetaeron attacks 3 times, hits 1.5 times, wounds 1.245 times, causing 0.62 wounds after saves (w. 0.1 of these being ID).

 

So, Hetaeron will kill Sevatar easily unless he gets lucky with rending.

 

My maths my also be wrong slightly (I'm a history student).

 

For Siggy, I think you may be forgetting that he re-rolls 1's to hit in a challenge because of the "Blood and Honor" rule for all Imperial Fists characters.  Not that it would really make that much of a difference, I think.

Edited November 3, 2017 by dicebod

[helterskelter]

This under the assumption there's no prescience on Sev as well? I know it doesn't make a fat lot of difference but it's a thing :p

[SixOfOne]

This under the assumption there's no prescience on Sev as well? I know it doesn't make a fat lot of difference but it's a thing

 

 

It's important to remember that Sigismund only causes instant death and invul re-rolls when fighting in a challenge. Against a shield captain w. Shield, familiar, digital lasers and Paragon Spear (in a vacuum).

 

Sigismund attacks 4 times, hits 2 times, wounds 1.32 times and causes 0.11 wounds after saves (increasing to 0.44 in a challenge)

 

The Captain attacks 6 times (generating 1 extra attack), hits 3.5 times, wounds 2.9 times, causing 1.45 wounds after saves.

 

So, from this it will take 3 rounds for both the Captain and Sigismund to kill each other (Sigismunds instant death). However, as the Captain is I6 he will kill Sigismund before the opposite occurs. 

 

Against Valdor:

 

Valdor attacks 6 times (generating 1 extra attack), hits 3.5 times, wounds 2.9 times, causing 1.81 wounds after saves

 

Sigismund attacks 4 times, hits 2 times, wounds 1.32 times, causing 0.66 wounds after saves

 

So, in this situation Valdor will kill Sigismund in 3 rounds.

 

Sevatar against a Hetaeron w. Paragon blade and Shield

 

Sevatar attacks first, hitting 2.5 times, wounding 1.25 times (causing 0.21 rends), causing 0.17 regular wounds and 0.1 rending wounds

 

The Hetaeron attacks 3 times, hits 1.5 times, wounds 1.245 times, causing 0.62 wounds after saves (w. 0.1 of these being ID).

 

So, Hetaeron will kill Sevatar easily unless he gets lucky with rending.

 

My maths my also be wrong slightly (I'm a history student).

 

For Siggy, I think you may be forgetting that he re-rolls 1's to hit in a challenge because of the "Blood and Honor" rule for all Imperial Fists characters.  Not that it would really make that much of a difference, I think.

 

 

Yes, no prescience on Sev. It wouldn't make enough of a difference anyway as actually hitting isn't a problem for him. Sev is great against anything with a 3+ or worse, but having to rely on rends basically neuters him despite the fact he can cause ID in challenges. 

 

And yes, I did forget that he re-rolls 1s in challenges. It would put his hits up to 2.33, wounds to 1.54 and wounds after saves to 0.5 in a challenge, so he would actually win in a challenge as he only needs 2 rounds to mathematically force a failed invul from the Captain, who will then die from the ID. I'm counting the re-rolls from Sig and the shield as cancelling each other out, otherwise it gets way too complicated.

[b1soul]

@SixOfOne

 

 

Thanks for the insight mate.

 

How about if it's just a baseline Shield Captain (i.e. wielding a guardian spear only) vs. Sig?

[SixOfOne]

@SixOfOne

 

 

Thanks for the insight mate.

 

How about if it's just a baseline Shield Captain (i.e. wielding a guardian spear only) vs. Sig?

 

No, that's against a fully kitted out Shield Captain with Paragon Spear, Shield, Digital lasers and Cyber familiar. It would be the same for a Captain w. Solerite Gauntlet as master-crafted and lightning blows are effectively the same thing in this situation. Hilariously a Hetaeron w.Solerite talons would kill Sev faster than one with a Paragon Blade. 

 

TL:DR- In a challenge, Sig will just about kill the Shield Captain before he dies. It will however, be very close and there's a pretty high chance of Sig dying instead as the Captain will attack first from round 2 onwards (Sig is only I6 when he charges). Don't ever make Sig fight a Tribune or Valdor. A Tribune is way too tanky and Sig is relying on ID already. Valdor does almost triple his damage when they fight each other. Finally, don't ever use Sev against Custodes, as a base Sentinel will do 0.41 wounds a turn to him.

Edited November 4, 2017 by SixOfOne

[Ghorgul]

Sevatar is a joke, normal 2+ saved power first sergeant is enough threat for him. Statistically of course Sevatar is more likely to win, but there is high enough chance (point cost!) you fail and the fist guy instagibs Sevatar.

As power fist sergeant counts as too high threat for Sev, by extension Custodes are even more no-no for Sev.

 

In short Sev has Nostraman Chainglaive + some additional rules. Nostraman Chainglaive is hard countered by any spammed 2+ save, thus any spammed 2+ save hard counters Sevatar.

 

This is also why I dislike 7th ed. HH and can't wait for the 8th, the step from 3+ save to 2+ is huge for weapons with AP3, essentially making cool weapons like nostraman chainglaive useless. Everyone almost always upgrades sergeants to 2+ save, unless really choked of points needed elsewhere.

[b1soul]

On the tabletop, is it hard for Sev to acoid the situation with the 2+ powerfist sergeant

[SixOfOne]

Not overly difficult, although most squads will have a sergeant with a 2+ save. Equipping regular sergeants with power fists is much more local meta dependent and so will vary. You pretty much want to point Sev at squads that don't have huge amounts of AP3/2 and give him a decent, assault oriented bodyguard. With talent for murder he'll be hitting and wounding most marines on 2s. He can take on generic characters, but is forced to rend. If they wanted to make Sev a scarier challenger then the only thing he needs really is rending on a 5+. If you change his weapons to AP2 then he simply becomes a Sigismund variant.

[Corswain]

If you change his weapons to AP2 then he simply becomes a Sigismund variant.

I want a Sigismund variant!!! He’s too cool to be so....... underwhelming.

Interested to see if Characters are included/get adjusted in the AOD core book when that releases.

 

Kinda feel like a lot of Sevatars usefullness is tied to his teleport homer. Dropping a unit of ten terminators on him could be pretty nasty. Maybe not, I haven’t actually used him in a game yet.

[Charlo]

Night Lords are getting an update in Angelus so I bet Sevetar might get a little changed.

[rendingon1+]

Yeah, Sevatar is unfortunately very weak. I often played vs night lords and was able to kill him 2/3 times in one round (challenge) with a terranic greatsword consul without loosing a wound. Bad luck on my opponent's side, yes, but still. ID on rending is fairly useless (and it's in challenges only) and without EW and/or AA he bites the dust very fast.

[b1soul]

Yeah, Sevatar is unfortunately very weak.

Perhaps more accurate to say he's still very nasty but repeated play has exposed some of his exploitable weaknesses?

 

 

If you change his weapons to AP2 then he simply becomes a Sigismund variant.

I want a Sigismund variant!!! He’s too cool to be so....... underwhelming.

Sig is one of a kind though...

[rendingon1+]

Ok,mayby I put it wrong but he still struggles. He's a preator with no artificer armour no eternal warrior and no ap2 weapon. He has no problem in slaughtering power armour dudes,sure but this is it - a duelist character (which he is) with a very medicore skill/equipmemt set. Though his teleport homer sure is a juicy piece of equipment...

 

Actually no, he's weak and definitely not nasty :)

Edited November 6, 2017 by rendingon1+

[Corswain]

They give Sevatar AP2 and Artificer and he’s fixed. He would probably need a small points adjustment but otherwise, job done.

[Charlo]

They give Sevatar AP2 and Artificer and he’s fixed. He would probably need a small points adjustment but otherwise, job done.

 

I think giving him straight up AP2 is a little boring and then he gets a bit samey with all the other big names.

 

Maybe make him have a special "exploit weakness" trait with his chainglaive where he causes AP2 & maybe Instant Death on a 5+ to wound. "Murderous Coup de grâce" is what I'd call the rule. "Murderous stroke of grace" sounds pretty NL :D

 

Combined with his psyker powers would make him cool.

[Corswain]

 

They give Sevatar AP2 and Artificer and he’s fixed. He would probably need a small points adjustment but otherwise, job done.

 

 

I think giving him straight up AP2 is a little boring and then he gets a bit samey with all the other big names.

 

Maybe make him have a special "exploit weakness" trait with his chainglaive where he causes AP2 & maybe Instant Death on a 5+ to wound. "Murderous Coup de grâce" is what I'd call the rule. "Murderous stroke of grace" sounds pretty NL :D

 

Combined with his psyker powers would make him cool.

Yeah, I’d be ok with that. I definitely think he should get Artificer though.

Maybe AP2 when his unit outnumbers the enemy? Tie into the NL special rules. He needs something.

[Elzender]

What about imposing some negative modifier to his opponent in challenges, to represent him fighting dirty? (I'm not really familiar with his lore nor his rules, so if he has already some rule to represent it or it isn't really fitting for him then please dismiss my post :P )

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

I’d just say Ap 2 when rolling a 4+ to wound and ID in challenges

[b1soul]

Doesn't Sev have better odds against every Astartes special character other than Sig? That would mean he beats guys like Abaddon and Khârn more often than not, no?

[rendingon1+]

Have you seen his rules? ;)

[b1soul]

Yes...I could be wrong, but the general consensus I've encountered online is something like this:

 

He's lethal. He's about the hardest, vilest, most disgustingly powerful combat character short of a Primarch that the Traitor Legions can offer, better even than Abaddon; and only Sigismund can best him (due to Eternal Warrior, dirty little cheater that he is).

 

Being fair, looking at Sevatar, he's not really that impressive as a Praetor with a Paragon Blade for killing infantry; after all, they hit the same, but the Praetor brings AP2 to the table, as well as ID outside of a challenge to take down MC's in a pinch; 5 S5 AP2 Murderous Strike attacks, or 5 S5 AP3 Rending Attacks; what is better?

 

Obviously the Praetor. 

 

But this is what the standard route of play went for a Sevatar, after reviewing him.

 

In Psychic Phase, throw dice at Precognition.

Declare Assault, roll distance, put Sevatar in assault with enemy target IC only, and leave all other potential challenge acceptors unengaged with Sevtar if possible.

At start of fight phase, issue a challenge with Sevatar. As only the target IC is engaged, your opponent must accept, or force opponent to retreat. If enemy character accepts, happy days, and use the enemies reduced Ld to try and fail the fear test. If accepted, they get full Ld test, but they're up against an Instant Death Sevatar. Because pile in happens at each Initiative step, and Sev is I6, there is no potential counter from unengaged pile ins.

 

Sevatar Attacks first (unless facing Loken, Primarch, Emperor's Children Characters or a charging Sigismund), and hits on 3's because WS7, and rerolls miss(es) because Master-crafted and/or Precognition. Because you're attacking an enemy elite unit bodyguarding a beatstick Praetor, you're mobbing him with Sevatar, Veterans, Apothecary, and maybe Rad Grenade Forge Lord just because you're evil.

 

Because of a combination of S5, Talent for Murder and/or Rad Grenades, you're wounding on 2's in an assault with a reroll. 5 attacks is looking like at least 4-5 hits, and 4-5 wounds, maybe even a couple of AP2 rends if you're very lucky. Enemy IC now has to pass all of their saves, or die. In the event of my last game, against a Praevian, the enemy Praevian didn't have Artificer Armour, and it got blended with 5 Instant Death attacks. Because of the way that challenge wound allocation worked, I killed the 3 Castellax supporting him as well.

 

Either way, an enemy IC is having to pass 4-5 saves or die; pretty much instantly. Salamanders, Praetors, and Sigismund of course is excluded from this Instant Death, but then again, we already knew this anyway.

 

However; that's all well and good; but what about the rest of him?

 

What else are you paying for?

 

Master of Ambush, and Master of the Atramentar, along with Master of the Legion. He's a Master of Masters, apparently. 

 

Assuming that Master of Ambush still holds true as written rather than the 7th edition update; this means that all friendly Outflankers have the Acute Senses rule.

 

So; that includes; 

Terror Squads

Vigilators in Recon Armour

Veterans with Outflank

Reconnaissance Squad (but these already have Acute Senses)

Javelin Attack Speeders

Death Guard allies with Infiltrate/Outflank; i.e Crysos Morturg (but he's loyal)

 

While Master of the Atramentar allows Terminator Armoured Command Squads and Legion Terminator Squads with Teleportation Transponders to Deep Strike very accurately within a short range. The problem with that is that the Command Squads must take the same type of Armour as the character they are purchased for, so requires a secondary Praetor (because a Delegatus means that you lose out on Master of Ambush). We all know how bad it is to group a lot of models near to one another, don't we.

 

But how do you build a list around that? It seems appropriate that a Terror Squad based list can Infiltrate themselves under the "Cover of Darkness" and "From the Shadows" for a 5+ Cover on the first turn; but at the same time, if you're outflanking them, they lose much of their abilities. Lone Vigilators are terrible. However, because of GW's terrible writing skills, Infiltrators cannot join non Infiltrators before the battle; so guess what rule Sevatar doesn't have as well. So he cannot benefit.

 

Veterans; you have a choice between Fearless objective holders with a 5+ Cover Save first turn, Sniper for shooting, or furious charge for assaulting, or Tank Hunters with Meltabombs and Missile Launchers. And you're expecting that to be wasted by simply having a few bolter marines spend some time off the board?

 

Javelin Speeders; actually are alright. I just don't like the aesthetic, or the concept of an open topped AV11 2 HP vehicle when there are Sicarans around, and they cost 75-85ppm. 

 

So; this leaves you with what route to take?

 

I like using the idea of Morturg with Sevatar; not only does he bring Rad Grenades and a Shred Flamer, but he also brings Endurance for a 4++ FNP and Eternal Warrior. He can also join with Terror Squads, and Infiltrate them until Sevatar joins them; perhaps by jumping out of his Transport and joining with the squad; manifest Eternal Warrior, and Precognition then eat face in an assault.

 

He's a powerful, killy character. But he brings very, very little to a force. Which I suppose is right, but... I don't know, despite his eat faceyness, he's still fragile (4++ Iron Halo and no Eternal Warrior without Morturg/lucky Librarians), I'm a little underwhelmed by his force manipulation.