Charlo Posted November 7, 2017 Share Posted November 7, 2017 That is a really good analysis. He's a little more deadly than I gave him credit for! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/340977-how-well-does-sigismund-or-sevatar-fare/page/2/#findComment-4926411 Share on other sites More sharing options...
rendingon1+ Posted November 7, 2017 Share Posted November 7, 2017 Actually, I have some doubts about that analysis. In fact I disagree with it almost entirely. Will elabotrate on this later. (placeholder) b1soul and BLACK BLŒ FLY 2 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/340977-how-well-does-sigismund-or-sevatar-fare/page/2/#findComment-4926499 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corswain Posted November 7, 2017 Share Posted November 7, 2017 It’s a completely different thing to judge a character when he’s attached to a unit vs. in a vacuum. If you need a unit of veterans, an apothecary and a forge lord AND need to outnumber your opponent for him to be effective, is he really worth it? Also, in my experience, mathhammer and the real world are two very different beasts. :) To clarify: for me, he’s not by any means bad, just not as good as his fluff would suggest. As I said, give him AP2 and Artificer and he’s fixed. And the AP2 isn’t really all that necessary, as others have said. I would take him every time for the rule of cool but If you wanna take down Custodes, a Praetor is a better option. rendingon1+ 1 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/340977-how-well-does-sigismund-or-sevatar-fare/page/2/#findComment-4926604 Share on other sites More sharing options...
SixOfOne Posted November 7, 2017 Share Posted November 7, 2017 It’s a completely different thing to judge a character when he’s attached to a unit vs. in a vacuum. If you need a unit of veterans, an apothecary and a forge lord AND need to outnumber your opponent for him to be effective, is he really worth it? Also, in my experience, mathhammer and the real world are two very different beasts. To clarify: for me, he’s not by any means bad, just not as good as his fluff would suggest. As I said, give him AP2 and Artificer and he’s fixed. And the AP2 isn’t really all that necessary, as others have said. I would take him every time for the rule of cool but If you wanna take down Custodes, a Praetor is a better option. His rules still put Sev as an incredibly good duelist. Statwise he's as good as Sigismund. However, he certainly should have artificer armour. As First Captain there's no real reason why he shouldn't have a custom set of armour. Actually, I have some doubts about that analysis. In fact I disagree with it almost entirely. Will elabotrate on this later. (placeholder) As Corswain has said, mathhammer and tabletop are completely different things. Take Corax for example. Mathhammer wise he's pretty bad against most primarchs (Although Blind may go back to the 6e ruling, which would change that). However, very few of his abilities favour him in a straight up fight and on the charge he has one of the highest damage outputs of any primarch. So, you need to look at the tabletop to get a full picture of character's abilities. Therefore, the summary of Sev is probably pretty accurate as he has a good chance of ID any non-EW character before they strike, and certainly by the next turn. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/340977-how-well-does-sigismund-or-sevatar-fare/page/2/#findComment-4926648 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLŒ FLY Posted November 8, 2017 Share Posted November 8, 2017 There is no SM character in 30k I am aware of that can walk across the battlefield decimating enemy units. If you are going to brings special characters they need some support that is just the way it is even for Horus. I would say as AM Corax (and Curze) is the one exception and a lot of that is due to the jump pack . Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/340977-how-well-does-sigismund-or-sevatar-fare/page/2/#findComment-4926968 Share on other sites More sharing options...
b1soul Posted November 8, 2017 Author Share Posted November 8, 2017 Everyone agree that Sev has overall stronger rules than Abaddon? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/340977-how-well-does-sigismund-or-sevatar-fare/page/2/#findComment-4926989 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLŒ FLY Posted November 8, 2017 Share Posted November 8, 2017 Abbadon in 30k is a joke imo . Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/340977-how-well-does-sigismund-or-sevatar-fare/page/2/#findComment-4927152 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlo Posted November 8, 2017 Share Posted November 8, 2017 Yeah Abaddon doesn't have anything super powerful. His only "unique" trait is that he's in Terminator armour but can still sweep and has a 4++... But guess what? So does every other preator in artificer with an Iron Halo. His weapons are a power sword & a MC-Fist. One of which doesn't even benefit from merciless fighters (P.s. it's the one you want to use). He's Fearless which is nice, and precision strikes, but he's nothing special. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/340977-how-well-does-sigismund-or-sevatar-fare/page/2/#findComment-4927227 Share on other sites More sharing options...
b1soul Posted November 8, 2017 Author Share Posted November 8, 2017 Yeah Abaddon doesn't have anything super powerful. His only "unique" trait is that he's in Terminator armour but can still sweep and has a 4++... But guess what? So does every other preator in artificer with an Iron Halo. His weapons are a power sword & a MC-Fist. One of which doesn't even benefit from merciless fighters (P.s. it's the one you want to use). He's Fearless which is nice, and precision strikes, but he's nothing special. Yeah...I think Abaddon needs an update much more than Sev, who seems to be fine where he is Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/340977-how-well-does-sigismund-or-sevatar-fare/page/2/#findComment-4927453 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunnersberry Posted November 8, 2017 Share Posted November 8, 2017 How about giving Sev a "Headbutt" skill, where he can sacrifice an attack that round in order to drop his opponents weapon skill, initiative, or even their attacks?... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/340977-how-well-does-sigismund-or-sevatar-fare/page/2/#findComment-4927816 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLŒ FLY Posted November 9, 2017 Share Posted November 9, 2017 In 30k Sigismund will bitch slap Abbaspawn every single time !!! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/340977-how-well-does-sigismund-or-sevatar-fare/page/2/#findComment-4927882 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corswain Posted November 9, 2017 Share Posted November 9, 2017 (edited) I agree that Abbadon is worse, but he is probably the worst represented model in the game, game vs. fluff wise. I do think the 4+ Invul. makes him more survivable against Custodes though. Edited November 9, 2017 by Corswain Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/340977-how-well-does-sigismund-or-sevatar-fare/page/2/#findComment-4927974 Share on other sites More sharing options...
b1soul Posted November 9, 2017 Author Share Posted November 9, 2017 Can Abaddon even tangle with a Shield Captain with no extra gear? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/340977-how-well-does-sigismund-or-sevatar-fare/page/2/#findComment-4928219 Share on other sites More sharing options...
SixOfOne Posted November 9, 2017 Share Posted November 9, 2017 Can Abaddon even tangle with a Shield Captain with no extra gear? With no extra gear, then yes in a vacuum as the Captain has no way of dealing consistent ap2. Giving the captain a paragon spear however. The captain strikes first: 5 attacks, hitting 2.92 times (0.42 from lightning blows), wounding 2.42 times, causing 1.21 wounds after saves (0.2 wounds causing ID) Abaddon strikes back: 4 attacks, hitting 3.3 times, wounding 2.7 times (MC power fist), causing 1.78 wounds after saves From this, both the Shield Captain and Abaddon require 3 rounds to kill each other. However, the Captain is I6 and thus will kill Abaddon before he strikes. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/340977-how-well-does-sigismund-or-sevatar-fare/page/2/#findComment-4928360 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corswain Posted November 9, 2017 Share Posted November 9, 2017 Nothing can, can it? ;) I think he’ll live longer than Sevatar, so maybe he’d have a better chance but he’s still gonna lose. Sigismund is still your go-to. I’m by no means an expert though. I don’t mathhammer, I haven’t played for a very long time and I’m openly and fanatically biased towards a few Legions. The very epitome of an unreliable witness. :) I try to stay up to date with the rules though. BLACK BLŒ FLY 1 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/340977-how-well-does-sigismund-or-sevatar-fare/page/2/#findComment-4928361 Share on other sites More sharing options...
rendingon1+ Posted November 9, 2017 Share Posted November 9, 2017 (edited) Eh, I was going to write a post about this analysis but... I forgot. Nevertheless what Corswain says is true + (emphasis) Sevatar lacks EW,AA nad AP2. Even with one of those things he would be good. You take special duelist characters for winning duels and Sev lacks guarantee he'll get a job done unlike Sigismund. His attack are a gamble and if you like gambling he's definitely for you. For example with I6 I and WS7 I would think of taking him vs 3rd Legion etc. He's not in useless category but not in a best fighter club either. BTW he is LD 9 and is not fearless. With I6 and LA:NL it's almost improbable that he would be swept while falling back, but remember that he's not a LD booster like some special characters. Also not being immune to fear is super ironic. Edited November 9, 2017 by rendingon1+ Corswain 1 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/340977-how-well-does-sigismund-or-sevatar-fare/page/2/#findComment-4928584 Share on other sites More sharing options...
b1soul Posted November 14, 2017 Author Share Posted November 14, 2017 (edited) It seems that the early characters like Abaddon could all benefit tremendously from some power creep via updates at this point @rendington Which characters other than Sig would you put in the best fighters club? Edited November 14, 2017 by b1soul Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/340977-how-well-does-sigismund-or-sevatar-fare/page/2/#findComment-4931205 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kizzdougs Posted November 14, 2017 Share Posted November 14, 2017 It seems that the early characters like Abaddon could all benefit tremendously from some power creep via updates at this point @rendington Which characters other than Sig would you put in the best fighters club? Eidolon on the charge is pretty decent. On the charge he has WS6, A5, S8, I6 (7 in a challenge), with AP2, master-crafted, concussive and sonic-shriekers (-1 to enemy WS, except against fearless units). When he doesn't charge he is much less impressive. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/340977-how-well-does-sigismund-or-sevatar-fare/page/2/#findComment-4931213 Share on other sites More sharing options...
b1soul Posted November 14, 2017 Author Share Posted November 14, 2017 Heard the Nemean Reaver is surprisingly impressive as well Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/340977-how-well-does-sigismund-or-sevatar-fare/page/2/#findComment-4931324 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlo Posted November 14, 2017 Share Posted November 14, 2017 Heard the Nemean Reaver is surprisingly impressive as well He's probably the other strongest Astartes duelist in the game than Sigismund. T5, Eternal Warrior, -1WS in challenges to the enemy and S5 AP2 makes him nasty. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/340977-how-well-does-sigismund-or-sevatar-fare/page/2/#findComment-4931385 Share on other sites More sharing options...
SixOfOne Posted November 14, 2017 Share Posted November 14, 2017 (edited) If we're not including Primarchs, Scoria or generic characters, then for me it'd go 1.) Valdor 2.) Sigismund 3.) Nemean 4.) Eidolon 5.) Sevatar/Khârn 6.) Nomus Rhy'tan 7.) Loken/Abaddon Not entirely sure where I'd put Draykavac. He can be really scary and even with average rolls will cause 1.5 wounds a round to any 4++ astartes character. However, because the no. of wounds is random, his effectiveness is slightly limited. Pollux also has the potential to be good, but only against characters that don't have EW. Edit: I also realised that Valdor's Molecular Severance causes all successful invuls to be re-rolled. This pushes his damage against Sigismund up to 2.175 wounds. Edited November 14, 2017 by SixOfOne Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/340977-how-well-does-sigismund-or-sevatar-fare/page/2/#findComment-4931723 Share on other sites More sharing options...
rendingon1+ Posted November 14, 2017 Share Posted November 14, 2017 Autek Mor. I'd also put some Legions praetor builds. Something like Day of Revelation praetor with blade of perdition, salamander tank with thunder hammer, DA ravenwing praetor with terranic and paragon blade etc. Unfortunately some of these builds are very expensive, but hey. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/340977-how-well-does-sigismund-or-sevatar-fare/page/2/#findComment-4931813 Share on other sites More sharing options...
SixOfOne Posted November 15, 2017 Share Posted November 15, 2017 Autek Mor. I'd also put some Legions praetor builds. Something like Day of Revelation praetor with blade of perdition, salamander tank with thunder hammer, DA ravenwing praetor with terranic and paragon blade etc. Unfortunately some of these builds are very expensive, but hey. Autek Mor I'd probably put around the level of Loken and Abbadon. He's certainly a good character, but his strengths really lie in being difficult to kill as opposed to being able to do lots of damage. He only has 3(4-servo arm) attacks base and is only I4, so will lose against the more dedicated duelists. That being said, he beats Loken but loses to Abaddon mathematically unless he manages to ID him with the paragon blade or servo arm. However, Abaddon will still kill him pretty easily before that mathematically happens. So, I'd put him above Loken, but below the others. Autek Mor stikes first, attacking 3 (4) times, hitting 1.5 (0.5) times, wounding 1.245 (0.415) times, causing 0.6225 (0.2075) wounds after saves. Abaddon strikes back, attacking 4 times, hitting 3.3 times, wounding 2.739 times, causing 1.3695 wounds after saves. From this, I'd probably move Abaddon up the list a bit. He's no Sigismund, but the combination of WS 7 a re-roll from MC means that he has a pretty good chance of ID anything T4 with his fist. He just doesn't stand up to the heavy hitters and tooled up characters due to no EW and only 3 wounds. I don't feel there's much point including generic characters, as kitted out they will beat most named characters on the list. Everyone knows that a tribune will kill everything, and a fully upgraded Praetor has 6 attacks base. A Salamanders Praetor will ID anything without EW pretty easily whilst taking little damage in return. BLACK BLŒ FLY 1 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/340977-how-well-does-sigismund-or-sevatar-fare/page/2/#findComment-4932327 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raktra Posted November 15, 2017 Share Posted November 15, 2017 Remember Mor is slinging preferred enemy around as well. BLACK BLŒ FLY 1 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/340977-how-well-does-sigismund-or-sevatar-fare/page/2/#findComment-4932613 Share on other sites More sharing options...
SixOfOne Posted November 19, 2017 Share Posted November 19, 2017 Remember Mor is slinging preferred enemy around as well. I keep forgetting things like that. In that situation though it wouldn't make enough of a difference though. Abaddon does a lot of damage and preferred enemy will only add 0.33 hits, 0.2178 wounds (0.1089 after saves) which is obviously not enough to out damage Abaddon. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/340977-how-well-does-sigismund-or-sevatar-fare/page/2/#findComment-4935492 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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