How well does Sigismund or Sevatar fare...

[rendingon1+]

Mathammer make people loose battles lol. No battle follows mathmmer calculations and people who tend to rely on them are often left in stunned disbelieve when things do not go according to them.

I keep forgetting things like that. In that situation though it wouldn't make enough of a difference though. Abaddon does a lot of damage and preferred enemy will only add 0.33 hits, 0.2178 wounds (0.1089 after saves) which is obviously not enough to out damage Abaddon.

 

I don't know how you're counting this but even looking at the stats you can see Autek Mor is uberbetter.

Abaddon has no chance of IDing him at all since he's T5.

Mor has preferred enemy on S6 weapon (that IDs Abaddon on 6) and on S8(ID) servo arm. Meaning almost auto wounds.

When using powerfist Abaddon strikes last, Mor strikes first with paragon on 4+ (rerolling 1s), wounds on 2+ rerolling 1s.. Than additional S8 (rerolling 1s).

Seriously

Edited November 19, 2017 by rendingon1+

[helterskelter]

Mor would just shoot a moon at abaddon anyway

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Morr would probably ID Abby.

[b1soul]

Mor would just shoot a moon at abaddon anyway

I don't get this

[Charlo]

 

Mor would just shoot a moon at abaddon anyway

I don't get this

 

Mor shot a moon at a World Eater's planet in the biggest most bad-ass  -you of the Heresy yet.

[rendingon1+]

That would be double ironic since every mournival member has a moon symbol and also luna wolves thing.

[SixOfOne]

Mathammer make people loose battles lol. No battle follows mathmmer calculations and people who tend to rely on them are often left in stunned disbelieve when things do not go according to them.

I keep forgetting things like that. In that situation though it wouldn't make enough of a difference though. Abaddon does a lot of damage and preferred enemy will only add 0.33 hits, 0.2178 wounds (0.1089 after saves) which is obviously not enough to out damage Abaddon.

 

I don't know how you're counting this but even looking at the stats you can see Autek Mor is uberbetter.

Abaddon has no chance of IDing him at all since he's T5.

Mor has preferred enemy on S6 weapon (that IDs Abaddon on 6) and on S8(ID) servo arm. Meaning almost auto wounds.

When using powerfist Abaddon strikes last, Mor strikes first with paragon on 4+ (rerolling 1s), wounds on 2+ rerolling 1s.. Than additional S8 (rerolling 1s).

Seriously

 

I know Abaddon can't ID Mor. I never said that. I said that he has a very high chance of ID anything that is T4. There is also no point including stuff like ID in Mathhammer calculations as it's just a straight up fight to see who will outdamage the other. Even with preferred enemy it will take 4 rounds for the servo arm to mathematically do 1 wound to Abaddon 

 

Mor strikes first with 3 (4) attacks, he hits 1.75 (0.58) times, wounds 1.6975 (0.5626) times and causes 0.8487(0.1414 ID from PB) + 0.2813 wounds after saves. In total this is 1.13 wounds a round.

 

Abbadon strikes back with 4 attacks, he hits 3.3 times, wounds 2.739 times and causes 1.3695 wounds after saves.  

 

So yes, I got the calculation wrong the first time due to forgetting preferred enemy. Mor will just beat Abaddon in round 3 as he will strike first with the PB and thus total 3.1 wounds over 3 rounds. It is however a pretty close fight, and in an actual fight it could easily go either way.

 

I know that Mathammer is problematic. It's not meant to be a fully accurate representation of the rules. It's simply meant to show who should beat who in a straight up fight, in a vacuum. I appreciate the fact I got the calculation wrong and that I made a mistake, but please don't bite my head off over it.

Edited November 21, 2017 by SixOfOne

[Luna707]

 

Mathammer make people loose battles lol. No battle follows mathmmer calculations and people who tend to rely on them are often left in stunned disbelieve when things do not go according to them.

I keep forgetting things like that. In that situation though it wouldn't make enough of a difference though. Abaddon does a lot of damage and preferred enemy will only add 0.33 hits, 0.2178 wounds (0.1089 after saves) which is obviously not enough to out damage Abaddon.

 

I don't know how you're counting this but even looking at the stats you can see Autek Mor is uberbetter.

Abaddon has no chance of IDing him at all since he's T5.

Mor has preferred enemy on S6 weapon (that IDs Abaddon on 6) and on S8(ID) servo arm. Meaning almost auto wounds.

When using powerfist Abaddon strikes last, Mor strikes first with paragon on 4+ (rerolling 1s), wounds on 2+ rerolling 1s.. Than additional S8 (rerolling 1s).

Seriously

 

I know Abaddon can't ID Mor. I never said that. I said that he has a very high chance of ID anything that is T4. There is also no point including stuff like ID in Mathhammer calculations as it's just a straight up fight to see who will outdamage the other. Even with preferred enemy it will take 4 rounds for the servo arm to mathematically do 1 wound to Abaddon 

 

Mor strikes first with 3 (4) attacks, he hits 1.75 (0.58) times, wounds 1.6975 (0.5626) times and causes 0.8487(0.1414 ID from PB) + 0.2813 wounds after saves. In total this is 1.13 wounds a round.

 

Abbadon strikes back with 4 attacks, he hits 3.3 times, wounds 2.739 times and causes 1.3695 wounds after saves.  

 

So yes, I got the calculation wrong the first time due to forgetting preferred enemy. Mor will just beat Abaddon in round 3 as he will strike first with the PB and thus total 3.1 wounds over 3 rounds. It is however a pretty close fight, and in an actual fight it could easily go either way.

 

I know that Mathammer is problematic. It's not meant to be a fully accurate representation of the rules. It's simply meant to show who should beat who in a straight up fight, in a vacuum. I appreciate the fact I got the calculation wrong and that I made a mistake, but please don't bite my head off over it.

 

 

WOOOOOOOOOOO THE FLESH IS WEAK!!

 

 

Question for you Math hammerers out there, where do all of the Praetor level specific characters rank in a dueling tournament? 

Edited November 21, 2017 by Luna707

[Raktra]

 

 

Mor would just shoot a moon at abaddon anyway

I don't get this

 

Mor shot a moon at a World Eater's planet in the biggest most bad-ass  -you of the Heresy yet.

 

Autek Mor cracked corn and he don't give a :cuss.

[SixOfOne]

 

WOOOOOOOOOOO THE FLESH IS WEAK!!

 

 

Question for you Math hammerers out there, where do all of the Praetor level specific characters rank in a dueling tournament? 

 

 

So the list would be the Nemean Reaver, Eidolon, Erasmus Golg, Kyr Vahlen, Sigismund, Pollux, Sevatar, Autek Mor, Khârn, Typhon, Abaddon, Loken, Hol Beloth, Nomus Rhy'tan, Dynat, Hvarl Red-blade, Endryd Haar.

 

There's not much point including Alvarex Maun, Shadrak Meduson and Ahriman as, to the best of my knowledge, they don't have an AP 2 weapon and are thus pretty much guaranteed to lose. In a similar vein there is no point adding Valdor as he will beat everyone. Adding Krole may not be a bad idea though. Any other Characters people want to add? I'd probably need to make a new thread for it as well?

Edited November 21, 2017 by SixOfOne

[Fenbain]

So the list would be the Nemean Reaver, Eidolon, Erasmus Golg, Kyr Vahlen, Sigismund, Pollux, Sevatar, Autek Mor, Khârn, Typhon, Abaddon, Loken, Hol Beloth, Nomus Rhy'tan, Dynat, Hvarl Red-blade.

 

There's not much point including Alvarex Maun, Shadrak Meduson and Ahriman as, to the best of my knowledge, they don't have an AP 2 weapon and are thus pretty much guaranteed to lose. In a similar vein there is no point adding Valdor as he will beat everyone. Adding Krole may not be a bad idea though. Any other Characters people want to add? I'd probably need to make a new thread for it as well?

Ahriman has a master-crafted Force Axe.

[Luna707]

 

 

WOOOOOOOOOOO THE FLESH IS WEAK!!

 

 

Question for you Math hammerers out there, where do all of the Praetor level specific characters rank in a dueling tournament? 

 

 

So the list would be the Nemean Reaver, Eidolon, Erasmus Golg, Kyr Vahlen, Sigismund, Pollux, Sevatar, Autek Mor, Khârn, Typhon, Abaddon, Loken, Hol Beloth, Nomus Rhy'tan, Dynat, Hvarl Red-blade.

 

There's not much point including Alvarex Maun, Shadrak Meduson and Ahriman as, to the best of my knowledge, they don't have an AP 2 weapon and are thus pretty much guaranteed to lose. In a similar vein there is no point adding Valdor as he will beat everyone. Adding Krole may not be a bad idea though. Any other Characters people want to add? I'd probably need to make a new thread for it as well?

 

 

1000% behind this idea, I would love to see a thread dedicated to these duels

[SixOfOne]

 

So the list would be the Nemean Reaver, Eidolon, Erasmus Golg, Kyr Vahlen, Sigismund, Pollux, Sevatar, Autek Mor, Khârn, Typhon, Abaddon, Loken, Hol Beloth, Nomus Rhy'tan, Dynat, Hvarl Red-blade.

 

There's not much point including Alvarex Maun, Shadrak Meduson and Ahriman as, to the best of my knowledge, they don't have an AP 2 weapon and are thus pretty much guaranteed to lose. In a similar vein there is no point adding Valdor as he will beat everyone. Adding Krole may not be a bad idea though. Any other Characters people want to add? I'd probably need to make a new thread for it as well?

Ahriman has a master-crafted Force Axe.

 

 

That's true, but Ahriman is much more of a Psyker than a duelist and for the sake of my sanity I won't include psychic powers. If people want to see how he fares normally then I will add him. Just don't expect him to be spectacular. A thread has been made.

Edited November 21, 2017 by SixOfOne

[blackoption]

If we're not including Primarchs, Scoria or generic characters, then for me it'd go 1.) Valdor 2.) Sigismund 3.) Nemean 4.) Eidolon 5.) Sevatar/Khârn 6.) Nomus Rhy'tan 7.) Loken/Abaddon

 

 

I agree with most of this list, but I'd bump Sevatar up to Eidolon's weight class.  Eidolon only gets to hit at initiative IF he charges (a powerful, but situational bonus).  Meanwhile Sevetar gets instant death on all wounds in a challenge (which can bleed over if I remember correctly).  Plus,  assuming Sevetar's unit outnumbers his opponents (another situational bonus), then Sevatar's starts to rend on a 5+  (pairing talent for murder with rending:  +1 to wound when outnumbering his opponent). 

 

Granted these aspects are situational, but Sevatar is no slouch.

[SixOfOne]

 

If we're not including Primarchs, Scoria or generic characters, then for me it'd go 1.) Valdor 2.) Sigismund 3.) Nemean 4.) Eidolon 5.) Sevatar/Khârn 6.) Nomus Rhy'tan 7.) Loken/Abaddon

 

 

I agree with most of this list, but I'd bump Sevatar up to Eidolon's weight class.  Eidolon only gets to hit at initiative IF he charges (a powerful, but situational bonus).  Meanwhile Sevetar gets instant death on all wounds in a challenge (which can bleed over if I remember correctly).  Plus,  assuming Sevetar's unit outnumbers his opponents (another situational bonus), then Sevatar's starts to rend on a 5+  (pairing talent for murder with rending:  +1 to wound when outnumbering his opponent). 

 

Granted these aspects are situational, but Sevatar is no slouch.

 

 

As far as I know, that isn't how A Talent for Murder works. It would make Sevatar wound most things on a 2+, but it does not apply to rending. Sevatar struggles because he has no way of dealing consistent AP2. He's certainly no slouch, but isn't brilliant against things with a 2+ save and awful against characters with EW. 

 

The Mathammer thread is here: http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/341570-character-duels-who-beats-who-mathammer/

[blackoption]

 

 

If we're not including Primarchs, Scoria or generic characters, then for me it'd go 1.) Valdor 2.) Sigismund 3.) Nemean 4.) Eidolon 5.) Sevatar/Khârn 6.) Nomus Rhy'tan 7.) Loken/Abaddon

 

 

I agree with most of this list, but I'd bump Sevatar up to Eidolon's weight class.  Eidolon only gets to hit at initiative IF he charges (a powerful, but situational bonus).  Meanwhile Sevetar gets instant death on all wounds in a challenge (which can bleed over if I remember correctly).  Plus,  assuming Sevetar's unit outnumbers his opponents (another situational bonus), then Sevatar's starts to rend on a 5+  (pairing talent for murder with rending:  +1 to wound when outnumbering his opponent). 

 

Granted these aspects are situational, but Sevatar is no slouch.

 

 

As far as I know, that isn't how A Talent for Murder works. It would make Sevatar wound most things on a 2+, but it does not apply to rending. Sevatar struggles because he has no way of dealing consistent AP2. He's certainly no slouch, but isn't brilliant against things with a 2+ save and awful against characters with EW. 

 

The Mathammer thread is here: http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/341570-character-duels-who-beats-who-mathammer/

 

 

the 'Talent for Murder' rule gives a flat +1 to wound.  Rending occurs on a 6.  A roll of a 5 + Talent for murder bonus = 6.  At least that is how my gaming group has been running Sevatar when he played. He reliably puts out at least 1 instant death wound per duel round at initiative 6.

 

Nice thread on the math hammer. 

[SixOfOne]

 

 

 

If we're not including Primarchs, Scoria or generic characters, then for me it'd go 1.) Valdor 2.) Sigismund 3.) Nemean 4.) Eidolon 5.) Sevatar/Khârn 6.) Nomus Rhy'tan 7.) Loken/Abaddon

 

 

I agree with most of this list, but I'd bump Sevatar up to Eidolon's weight class.  Eidolon only gets to hit at initiative IF he charges (a powerful, but situational bonus).  Meanwhile Sevetar gets instant death on all wounds in a challenge (which can bleed over if I remember correctly).  Plus,  assuming Sevetar's unit outnumbers his opponents (another situational bonus), then Sevatar's starts to rend on a 5+  (pairing talent for murder with rending:  +1 to wound when outnumbering his opponent). 

 

Granted these aspects are situational, but Sevatar is no slouch.

 

 

As far as I know, that isn't how A Talent for Murder works. It would make Sevatar wound most things on a 2+, but it does not apply to rending. Sevatar struggles because he has no way of dealing consistent AP2. He's certainly no slouch, but isn't brilliant against things with a 2+ save and awful against characters with EW. 

 

The Mathammer thread is here: http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/341570-character-duels-who-beats-who-mathammer/

 

 

the 'Talent for Murder' rule gives a flat +1 to wound.  Rending occurs on a 6.  A roll of a 5 + Talent for murder bonus = 6.  At least that is how my gaming group has been running Sevatar when he played. He reliably puts out at least 1 instant death wound per duel round at initiative 6.

 

Nice thread on the math hammer. 

 

 

Thanks. I personally have never played rending that way. It's very specifically 'rolls of 6 to wound', which I have always taken to mean natural 6s in the same way as natural 20s in DnD. If your gaming group plays it that way though then don't let me stop you though. 

Edited December 1, 2017 by SixOfOne

[Gorgoff]

Thanks. I personally have never played rending that way. It's very specifically 'rolls of 6 to wound', which I have always taken to mean natural 6s in the same way as natural 20s in DnD. If your gaming group plays it that way though then don't let me stop you though.

Yeah, that's how the rule works and you've explained very well why.

[Corswain]

Does Talent for Murder still apply in a duel?

[SixOfOne]

Does Talent for Murder still apply in a duel?

 

You could probably argue either way. The ruling of ATfM states that it applies on the initiative step. Challenges also don't completely separate characters from their attached units. They still remain part of the unit they're attached to (RAW). Therefore, I would argue that yes, it does apply (Sevatar will strike before most things anyway). However, as challenges are dealt with separately from the main fight between units then you can argue that it won't apply as Sevatar will never outnumber his enemy whilst in a challenge.

[Corswain]

Probably needs an FAQ but I’m inclined to agree that he does get it. Just feels like a little vague.

Sevatar definitey works better with a nice support unit then.

[Walter Payton]

How does 1d4chan's nasty sounding Lucid/Paragon Blade combo for the Emperor's Children stack up against other legions, and in particular Siggy/Sevatar?

 

From here:

 

 

 

Updated for new rule book FAQ; Weapons which states "Q: Do weapon special rules that say ‘a model equipped with this weapon’ or ‘this weapon’s bearer’ take effect even when not used as the attacking weapon? A: Yes." This means that your Praetor with a Paragon blade can attack with his Paragon blade while benefiting from an improved invulnerable save. Iron halo (4+) and 6 attacks (4+1+1 charging and two specialists weapons) +1 attack from digital lasers. Buff up the invulnerable save to 2++ and you can still make 5 str5 ap2 6+ murderous strike attacks at I7 and with a -1WS penalty for your opponent.

 

The wargear combo I assume would be: Art Armour, Iron Halo, Digital Lasers, Sonic Shrieker, Lucid Blade, Paragon Blade.

[SixOfOne]

How does 1d4chan's nasty sounding Lucid/Paragon Blade combo for the Emperor's Children stack up against other legions, and in particular Siggy/Sevatar?

 

From here:

 

 

 

Updated for new rule book FAQ; Weapons which states "Q: Do weapon special rules that say ‘a model equipped with this weapon’ or ‘this weapon’s bearer’ take effect even when not used as the attacking weapon? A: Yes." This means that your Praetor with a Paragon blade can attack with his Paragon blade while benefiting from an improved invulnerable save. Iron halo (4+) and 6 attacks (4+1+1 charging and two specialists weapons) +1 attack from digital lasers. Buff up the invulnerable save to 2++ and you can still make 5 str5 ap2 6+ murderous strike attacks at I7 and with a -1WS penalty for your opponent.

 

The wargear combo I assume would be: Art Armour, Iron Halo, Digital Lasers, Sonic Shrieker, Lucid Blade, Paragon Blade.

 

You'll kill Sevatar pretty easily in all likelihood, but still lose to Sigismund. Even with a 2++ you'll be taking close to 0.66 wounds a turn which means that Sigismund will still kill you in 2 rounds of combat. Sonic Shriekers also don't work on Sigismund, you need your opponents permission to use the relic and that character is real expensive. You're also just as weak to shooting as a regular praetor.