Tactics: Alpha strike against vehicles/super heavies

[Mobius0288]

So we've toyed with this idea across multiple threads but I wanted to ask it formally, in a single thread. What's our best options for an alpha strike-type squad in DW? I'm trying to refine my previous squad so turn 2, I can take out that annoying commander pask, cripple a super heavy or wipe out a vulnerable warlord.

 

The best deliver still seems to be a blackstar because I can get the kill team a little closer then 9 inches, but a drop pod could still work too. The squad I usually ran was: 2 frag cannons, 2 combi-meltas, 1 SS/bolter, 1 bolter/power sword (Sgt).

 

After reviewing another thread, I'm leaning towards: 1 frag cannon, 3 combi-meltas (Sgt), 2 shotguns.

 

Is there a better way to go after T +7-8 vehicles? Should I give them some kind of hammer for charging as well? Also welcomed, is there an ally that can do it more efficiently (Scion command squad in valkyrie??)? I think multi frag cannons will do well against non-vehicles, so I'm not as worried about character assassination. I'd also put things like Mortarian in a different class since it will take more then a single (well placed and lucky) squad to take him out.

 

I need a point-efficient shock and awe, that will cripple my opponent's big threat or anchor point.

Edited November 2, 2017 by Mobius0288

[mjrwaud]

Is there a reason you're going with 6 man squads? Why waste the seats in the Corvus... unless you had plans for those already?
 
I'm certainly no expert at all, but I'd almost be tempted to go with two 5-man squads in the same Corvus, kit one for shooting and one for charging (mixing the two by putting in a hammer never seems to work out well). Having two squads gives you flexibility without watering things down. 

So, maybe 5 man squad A = 2 frag, 2 combi-melta/chainsword (1 is sgt), bolter/SS; 5 man squad B = 2 bolter/pwr axe, 1 hvy hammer, 1 lightning claw (blackshield), 1 bolter/pwr fist? (Sgt)

 

That's probably way more pricey than what you're looking for, just my initial idea while sticking to just Deathwatch (which I try to do).

 

Best of luck!

[Mobius0288]

Is there a reason you're going with 6 man squads? Why waste the seats in the Corvus... unless you had plans for those already?

So I'm on the fence about that sometimes. I try to spread my squads out in case my corvus goes down before I can deliver it. In 2000 pts and above, it's pretty possible it could be shot down turn one.

 

If I can cram the necessary firepower across two squads, then I'm willing to try it out. Also the squads are a little bigger so I can have meat shields between the enemy unit and my important models.

[shanewatts]

Squads in a corvus can't get out till turn 2 (assuming you burn the corvus into your opponents face.) That isn't much of an Alpha strike since your opponent can react.

 

Only 2 anti-tank/monster Alpha strike options for pure DW, pods and lascannons. Pods can be countered with screens. So it boils down to lascannons. Right now the most efficient and mobile lascannon platform is the Xiphon. As far as alpha strike goes in general anything that can get into range turn 1 is game, (vanguard vets and termies) its just a matter of making them effective and mesh with the rest of your army.

 

The reason that AM can do silly stuff with a Valkyrie is because of the grav chute rule. You can put a commander for orders and special weapons inside a Valkyrie that can move 45 inches and then disembark your guns (must disembark 9 inches away) and then move towards whatever you want to shoot. (This can still be screened, but is harder to do because your special weapons can still move after they disembark.) 

 

IMO the best anti-tank model we can bring is Xiphons.

[Mobius0288]

Ya, I could get on board with a pod. Makes the best sense for non frag cannon stuff. Otherwise, you're stuck solely using the shell profile.

 

The reason why I mention a flyer, and would be willing to make it a turn 2 alpha, is because I can more reliably get my team into position. I don't need grav chute insertion, I can just disembark as close to my target as possible. I can drop and move them into half melta range, and charge as needed. You gotta realize, tanks and artillery type targets aren't going to be moving because they want to keep their ballistic skill as high as possible.

 

Sure, I could try to mass lascannon on turn 1... But that's going to greatly hurt my maneuverability and amount of kill teams. Xiphon does seem like a good gap filler, probably in place of my lascannon blackstar. But again, I love the transport ability paired with survivability of the blackstar.

 

Or maybe the fell blade/Spartan landraider and just be done with it?

[Aothaine]

Totally second shanewatts here. I would just be careful with relying on the Xiphon as it is Forge World and some people and tournaments do not like/allow it.

[Vel'Cona]

Totally second shanewatts here. I would just be careful with relying on the Xiphon as it is Forge World and some people and tournaments do not like/allow it.

 

Given that it's strictly better in every way than the GW Flyers, I can see why some in particular would object to it.  But each TO is given to their own choices, OFC.  It certainly is a very strong model in the tactic suggested.

[robofish7591]

Has anyone tried terminators with meltafists and maybe a couple of storm shields and thunder hammers for survivability?  Or are they too expensive?  They could be decent at harassing artillery, and nobody likes having terminators sitting in their backfield.  Supported with some lascannons they could have a pretty decent chance of taking down some big nasty stuff.

[shanewatts]

Has anyone tried terminators with meltafists and maybe a couple of storm shields and thunder hammers for survivability?  Or are they too expensive?  They could be decent at harassing artillery, and nobody likes having terminators sitting in their backfield.  Supported with some lascannons they could have a pretty decent chance of taking down some big nasty stuff.

That unit is pretty hefty on point cost. Any list that is able to screen will keep you out of melta range on the drop, but at least they would be a melee threat as well. Normally I would say not worth the points sheerly based on termies not being very point efficient in the meta, however I kind of want to test this now.

[Kargrym]

I’m fine with the idea of having a terminator squad deep striking in my list but it just irks me that they don’t get SIA so I say forget it. Now give me terminators with 2+ poison or +1 hit and we have a game changing drop option.

[Arkeo Nox]

There is still no way to take a stormshield without taking a thunder hammer ? :/

[spacewatch]

I’m fine with the idea of having a terminator squad deep striking in my list but it just irks me that they don’t get SIA so I say forget it. Now give me terminators with 2+ poison or +1 hit and we have a game changing drop option.

 

Two squads of VVets would cost only +20pts more than basic Termie squad and give you those 20 2+ hellfire shots. Upgrades: Termie AC = x3 VVet plasma pistols, x2 TH&SS ~ x7 plasma pistols. x10 SIA+Plasma combination is as effective as x3 AC and in many cases more effective. And yes, termie save is better but having multiple models is better against D2-3 weapons which is probably what they face anyway. Add cheap watch captain with jump pack and x10 VVets becomes deadly against ...just about anything. Not?

Edited November 4, 2017 by spacewatch

[Kargrym]

 

 

I’m fine with the idea of having a terminator squad deep striking in my list but it just irks me that they don’t get SIA so I say forget it. Now give me terminators with 2+ poison or +1 hit and we have a game changing drop option.

Two squads of VVets would cost only +20pts more than basic Termie squad and give you those 20 2+ hellfire shots. Upgrades: Termie AC = x3 VVet plasma pistols, x2 TH&SS ~ x7 plasma pistols. x10 SIA+Plasma combination is as effective as x3 AC and in many cases more effective. And yes, termie save is better but having multiple models is better against D2-3 weapons which is probably what they face anyway. Add cheap watch captain with jump pack and x10 VVets becomes deadly against ...just about anything. Not?

I totally agree and am making a bunch of gunslinging vanguard vets for just that reason. Until that meltafist comes down in price and the terminator gets better for the cost somehow I would rather have vanguard vets however it seems that the wisdom on B&C as well as josh a miniwargamming just arn’t sold on them and I don’t know why. Maybe it’s the 2+ 5++

[Mobius0288]

There is still no way to take a stormshield without taking a thunder hammer ? :/

That is the primary reason I am ok with mixing termies with kill teams. I can take a shield on a Vet and actually USE that 3+ save without hurting my termie's capabilities. Sure the fist is less efficient then the hammer but still usable in this case.

 

 

 

I’m fine with the idea of having a terminator squad deep striking in my list but it just irks me that they don’t get SIA so I say forget it. Now give me terminators with 2+ poison or +1 hit and we have a game changing drop option.

 

Two squads of VVets would cost only +20pts more than basic Termie squad and give you those 20 2+ hellfire shots. Upgrades: Termie AC = x3 VVet plasma pistols, x2 TH&SS ~ x7 plasma pistols. x10 SIA+Plasma combination is as effective as x3 AC and in many cases more effective. And yes, termie save is better but having multiple models is better against D2-3 weapons which is probably what they face anyway. Add cheap watch captain with jump pack and x10 VVets becomes deadly against ...just about anything. Not?

 

 

Ok so taking this idea back to my orginal thought since it could definitely apply here... is it a good idea to grab a bunch of VV with plasma pistols and deep strike them with a Capt near something ugly? Or maybe get a kill team with a mix of meltas and plasma in a drop pod, paired with a watchmaster?

 

Is there a good, cost efficient balance? (I kinda feel like combi's over regular special weapons are better since I have SIA on the kill team anyways).

[Moostick]

Plasma are terrible alpha strike weapons. They simply do not do enough D to kill any big targets in a turn, and with the new rules we're seeing so many -1 To Hit abilities, overcharged plasma, and even shooting both combi-options, is becoming worse and worse. I also can't think of any good option for Alpha Strike right now outside the Xiphon, but I've tried plasma and it's failed me more times than succeeding. I was a huge advocate for combi-plasmas in the beginning, but now they fail to seal the deal against high value targets most of the time since I only ever take at most 3 a unit. Their best use is against mid-tier units with 3-4 wounds and T4-6; they fall short against horde and monstrous models/vehicles.

 

I'll need to try melta or grav sometime; my bet would be melta, but it'd be a steep cost. Deathwatch is definitely not a good alpha strike army right now; other factions do it much better at a cheaper cost.

[shanewatts]

Plasma are terrible alpha strike weapons. They simply do not do enough D to kill any big targets in a turn, and with the new rules we're seeing so many -1 To Hit abilities, overcharged plasma, and even shooting both combi-options, is becoming worse and worse. I also can't think of any good option for Alpha Strike right now outside the Xiphon, but I've tried plasma and it's failed me more times than succeeding. I was a huge advocate for combi-plasmas in the beginning, but now they fail to seal the deal against high value targets most of the time since I only ever take at most 3 a unit. Their best use is against mid-tier units with 3-4 wounds and T4-6; they fall short against horde and monstrous models/vehicles.

 

I'll need to try melta or grav sometime; my bet would be melta, but it'd be a steep cost. Deathwatch is definitely not a good alpha strike army right now; other factions do it much better at a cheaper cost.

This. Everything Deathwatch can do right now with Alpha Strike can be done more efficiently by other Imperium units. Sad to say, but true.

[spacewatch]

 

Plasma are terrible alpha strike weapons. They simply do not do enough D to kill any big targets in a turn, and with the new rules we're seeing so many -1 To Hit abilities, overcharged plasma, and even shooting both combi-options, is becoming worse and worse. I also can't think of any good option for Alpha Strike right now outside the Xiphon, but I've tried plasma and it's failed me more times than succeeding. I was a huge advocate for combi-plasmas in the beginning, but now they fail to seal the deal against high value targets most of the time since I only ever take at most 3 a unit. Their best use is against mid-tier units with 3-4 wounds and T4-6; they fall short against horde and monstrous models/vehicles.

 

I'll need to try melta or grav sometime; my bet would be melta, but it'd be a steep cost. Deathwatch is definitely not a good alpha strike army right now; other factions do it much better at a cheaper cost.

This. Everything Deathwatch can do right now with Alpha Strike can be done more efficiently by other Imperium units. Sad to say, but true.

 

 

 

This fact is not only sad but very hard to swallow. I know you're right but tere's got to be something we can do turn 1 as a pure DW army too. I'm not arguing against but since I converted my plasma-chainsword VVets to plasma-SIA VVets I have found them very useful in couple of test games I have recently had. I can now play them as a full SIA, full plasma or mixed SIA-plasma unit. My battle notes show that SIA configuration works well against Boyz (infantry) because of hellfire, mixed configuration works against Nobz (tough infantry) because of plasma and full plasma configuration works against Meganobz (terminator melee megakillers) because of plasma supercharge. They are not able to wipe entire unit but that's ok because they are able to seriously damage enemy unit and nearby stalker bolter unit(s) can then finish the job. If enemy then wipes my VVets so what, I just destroyed nasty unit I don't need to worry any longer, at half or 2/3 of the price and at the same time I tied some enemy shooting power and maybe saved some other models.

 

What I'm wondering now is if something like this would work in larger scale too. So two full plasma VVet unit deepstriking and supported by twiin lascannon Dread or two against Gorganaut. I know form this and our tactics threads that this works only if enemy makes positioning mistake and I know that it would be suicide mission for VVets but enemy monster would be gone and anything inside would then be targeted by my long range shooting. I don't know about other armies but I would easily and instantaneously sacrifice two units worth of up to 350 pts if that's what's needed to get rid of Gorganaut/Battlewagon and most of the disembarked Meganobz in turn 1. Well, I'll try this anyway and only when I see my last Vet dying because of crushing overpower of the enemy ...I then swallow that bitter fact of sad truth that Moostick, shanewatts and others too already know by experience

Edited November 5, 2017 by spacewatch

[Muckwarrior]

I just built a Kill Team with 6 marines: 3 Storm Bolters, 3 Combi-Meltas, 4 Storm Shields. Their job is to eliminate 10-16 wound vehicles and soak hits.

[mjrwaud]

I just built a Kill Team with 6 marines: 3 Storm Bolters, 3 Combi-Meltas, 4 Storm Shields. Their job is to eliminate 10-16 wound vehicles and soak hits.

Is there any particular reason for choosing storm bolters? Sadly, they aren't able to use the special issue ammunition (SIA) which are the key feature of our standard veteran marines and the cost is already built in.

[Mobius0288]

So here's what I've done and it feels fairly successful... I loaded up my blackstar (assault cannon, storm strike, hurricane bolter)  with 2 kill teams and a watchmaster.
 
Kill Team A: 3 combi-meltas/chainswords, 2 shotguns/chainswords (meat shields)
Kill Team B: 3 combi-plasma/chainswords, 2 bolters
 
I roll the blackstar up the middle supported by another blackstar (lascannon, storm strike, hurricane) as well as my back line (I'll leave the list at the bottom). I get as close as I can turn one cripple squads, lascannons and stormstrike missiles go into something big. My back line is a little menacing so it should equally get my opponents attention. Turn 2 (preying to the dice gods for survival), I disembark and put my meltas into the problem target. I caused 14 D via 4 shots (rerolled 1 from watchmaster). My combi-plasma team was there for back up but basically shredded a nearby infantry unit (again with watchmaster to the rescue).
 
I'm happy with the point cost as well. I can't really see a cheaper option considering all the firepower that goes with it (blackstar). I could try one combined kill team with a watchmaster in a drop pod for slightly cheaper, but you'll definitely have problems against bubble wrapping. It would be absolutely hilarious against Astra players who hold one flank with a baneblade though.

 

Full list:

Hidden Content

++ Battalion Detachment +3CP (Imperium - Deathwatch) [105 PL, 1996pts] ++

+ HQ +

Primaris Captain [6 PL, 96pts]: Master-crafted stalker bolt rifle, Power sword

Watch Master [7 PL, 130pts]

+ Troops +

Deathwatch Kill Team [9 PL, 162pts]
. Deathwatch Veteran: Chainsword, Combi-melta
. Deathwatch Veteran: Chainsword, Combi-melta
. Deathwatch Veteran: Chainsword, Deathwatch Shotgun
. Deathwatch Veteran: Chainsword, Deathwatch Shotgun
. Watch Sergeant: Chainsword, Combi-melta

Deathwatch Kill Team [9 PL, 157pts]
. Deathwatch Veteran: Chainsword, Stalker Pattern Boltgun
. Deathwatch Veteran: Chainsword, Stalker Pattern Boltgun
. Deathwatch Veteran w/ Heavy Weapon: Missile launcher
. Deathwatch Veteran w/ Heavy Weapon: Missile launcher
. Watch Sergeant: Chainsword, Stalker Pattern Boltgun

Deathwatch Kill Team [9 PL, 147pts]
. Deathwatch Veteran: Boltgun, Chainsword
. Deathwatch Veteran: Boltgun, Chainsword
. Deathwatch Veteran: Chainsword, Combi-plasma
. Deathwatch Veteran: Chainsword, Combi-plasma
. Watch Sergeant: Combi-plasma, Xenophase Blade

Deathwatch Kill Team [16 PL, 272pts]
. Deathwatch Terminator
. . Power Sword and Stormbolter: Power sword, Storm bolter
. Deathwatch Veteran: Boltgun, Chainsword
. Deathwatch Veteran: Boltgun, Storm shield
. Deathwatch Veteran: Boltgun, Storm shield
. Deathwatch Veteran: Boltgun, Chainsword
. Deathwatch Veteran w/ Heavy Weapon: Deathwatch Frag Cannon
. Deathwatch Veteran w/ Heavy Weapon: Deathwatch Frag Cannon
. Watch Sergeant: Chainsword, Combi-flamer

+ Elites +

Primaris Apothecary [4 PL, 68pts]

Venerable Dreadnought [8 PL, 165pts]: Missile launcher, Twin lascannon

+ Heavy Support +

Hellblaster Squad [8 PL, 175pts]: Heavy Plasma Incinerator
. 4x Hellblaster
. Hellblaster Sergeant: Bolt pistol

+ Flyer +

Corvus Blackstar [12 PL, 246pts]: Auspex Array, Hurricane bolter, Twin assault cannon
. 2x Stormstrike Missile Launchers: 2x Stormstrike missile launcher

Corvus Blackstar [12 PL, 261pts]: Auspex Array, Hurricane bolter, Twin lascannon
. 2x Stormstrike Missile Launchers: 2x Stormstrike missile launcher

+ Dedicated Transport +

Razorback [5 PL, 117pts]: Storm bolter, Twin lascannon

[Mobius0288]

 

I just built a Kill Team with 6 marines: 3 Storm Bolters, 3 Combi-Meltas, 4 Storm Shields. Their job is to eliminate 10-16 wound vehicles and soak hits.

Is there any particular reason for choosing storm bolters? Sadly, they aren't able to use the special issue ammunition (SIA) which are the key feature of our standard veteran marines and the cost is already built in.

 

Nothing wrong with storm bolters in general but in this case, I think the bolters would benefit you better if you're looking to go after vehicles. Chances are low to wound but if you do, you can at least cause -1 or -2 AP.

[shanewatts]

 

 

I just built a Kill Team with 6 marines: 3 Storm Bolters, 3 Combi-Meltas, 4 Storm Shields. Their job is to eliminate 10-16 wound vehicles and soak hits.

Is there any particular reason for choosing storm bolters? Sadly, they aren't able to use the special issue ammunition (SIA) which are the key feature of our standard veteran marines and the cost is already built in.

 

Nothing wrong with storm bolters in general but in this case, I think the bolters would benefit you better if you're looking to go after vehicles. Chances are low to wound but if you do, you can at least cause -1 or -2 AP.

 

Storm bolters just aren't worth the points for Deathwatch. 2 pts for 1/2 extra shots that don't get SIA, losing the major advantage we have. Being able to deal with most any target with regular bolters.