Seeker Missiles Discussion

[Aothaine]

Hey everyone!

 

I was flipping through my index last night and notice something interesting. There is really good synergy between seeker missiles and marker lights. 

 

So, we need 5 marker lights on a target to use the ballistic skill of the unit firing the missile. We can pick up a commander with the drone controller support module for this or we can use the nifty path finders. They are not too expensive. Should be around 25 points for a squad with five marker lights.

 

Here is where the fun starts.

 

Next you can pick up 8-9 Sky Ray Missile Defense Gunships. Though to be honest 6 is where you might want to stop with this. This gives you 36-54 mortal wound causing missiles. These gunships have two marker lights on them, hit on 3+ and will have +1 to hit on the targets you have 5 marker lights on.

 

Now this may not initially seem all that good. But remember you will still have a few squads of pathfinders for holding objectives and a commander that you can equip to focus infantry with burst cannons.

 

If you drop the gunships down to 6 you can include a few Piranhas which can also carry two seeker missiles each. They are pretty expensive but their are fast. 

 

I do understand that you need to roll to hit for these missiles but if you can get 5 marker lights on a target the gunships are causing mortal wounds on a 2+. 

 

I'm not saying this will be competitive or be able to handle any of the top tier lists ... but it is an interesting synergy. 

 

What do you all think? Could seeker missiles be a good investment?

 

This would wreck a small elite army I think. 

[Panzer]

Seeker missiles are great but they have a huge problem. The units who can take them are expensive and not very strong currently, or want/have to move (Devilfish, Piranha, Sunshark, Razorshark) which would require you to hit 3 Markerlights instead of the 2 you'd normally need to shoot Seekers efficiently. Devilfish and Piranha even have only BS4+.

That means, if you already take Hammerheads or Broadsides in your list always take Seeker missiles on those as well. On Devilfish and Piranha, make sure you have a LOT Markerlights ready or those points are most likely wasted.

 

Skyrays are a whole different topic. They can shoot a bunch of Seeker Missiles and then they are basically useless. That's a lot of points for a moveable roadblock after your first turn. I hope the Codex will give the Skyray an ability that makes its Seeker Missiles not one-use only anymore. Also using the Skyrays Markerlights for its own Seekers is pretty risky since you would have to hit with both or else you'd be hitting with your valuable one-use only missiles only on 6s. Not something you want to do.

 

I honestly would advise against taking Skyrays currently and if you really want Seeker Missiles in your list either provide enough Markerlights that you can guarantee 3 Markerlights on the target for your Devilfish (filled with Gun Drones or Breacher ideally) even after the opponents alpha strike....or to take Hammerheads since they already have BS3+, want to be stationary anyway, can still do stuff after the Seeker are gone and can get a +1 to-hit with a Longstrike nearby (making the Seekers hit on 2+ re-rolling 1s as long as there are no negative to-hit modifier on the target).

I'd say the Hammerhead variant is the more reliable and thus better one since my Pathfinder often don't survive the opponents alpha strike in great numbers if I don't get the first turn (I usually play ~16 Pathfinder in 2-3 units).

 

So tl;dr

Seeker Missiles are a great investment on Hammerheads, and on Devilfish/Piranah if you have plenty Markerlights to get at least 3 hits on the target. Not a great ivestment on Skyrays tho.

[Aothaine]

My thought about the Skyrays was that after they dump the seekers on their first turn then can have two burst cannons and can assault units. So I was thinking... first turn marker light up the worst targets, aim for 5 lights on 2-3 targets and dump all 36-54 seekers into those targets then the tanks become mobile assault/shooting platforms with 8 str 5 shots. Not a whole lot... but it makes them somewhat useful for denying your opponents charges and they can try and lock up units pretty quickly and race for objectives late game. I just wonder if 36-54 seeker missiles hitting on 2s is enough. Trying to roll this out without special characters for the time being.

[Panzer]

Take two Gun Drones instead of two Burst Cannons. It's infinitely much better.

 

But yeah I understood the tactic behind it. A strong Alpha Strike and then simply act as harrassing unit.

Problem is that it's about 1k points (with 6 Skyrays) for an Alpha strike that only works properly as long as you have enough Markerlights and the enemy no negative to-hit modifier. If the enemy goes first and kills your markerlights or has his important things in reserves even, the Skyrays will be 1k points of dead weight for the most part.

 

For about 80p more you could have instead:

Longstrike, Railgun, 2xSeeker, 2xGun Drone

5xHammerhead, Railgun, 2xSeeker, 2x Gun Drone

 

That's still 12 Seeker Missiles, but they hit on 2+ when near Longstrike (in Longstrikes case even 1+) plus 6 S10 AP-4 D1d6 shots at 2+(1+ for Longstrike) that don't require any Markerlights and cause additional Mortal wounds on a to-wound roll of 6(5 for Longstrike). Plus this unit still has most of its damage potential after the first turn and after the enemy got rid of all your Markerlights.

 

Hammerheads aren't good compared to the Codex tanks, but they are better than Skyrays imo. Skyrays have a very fraguile alpha strike and then they are dead weight while Hammerheads are very reliable with a bit less of an alpha strike but continue doing their damage throughout the game. None of the are ideal but if I had to chose I'd be taking the Hammerheads all the time. You can't just rely on getting 5 Markerlights on the target you want all the time.

[Aothaine]

I totally see your point with the hammerheads. They would most likely be a better all-rounder option. I think I'm going to have to make some tank companies for my T'au force. Just run a few spearheads. Hopefully the tanks will drop in points a bit when the codex comes out. It would be really cool to be able to a T'au Tank army.

 

I still want the Skyray Gunship to be good though. Love the look of that model. But I love everything T'au so.. :/

[Panzer]

Yeah I'm with you on that. A tank force would be awesome, especially since I have an AM player in my group who loves using his tanks. ^^

If the Skyray could shoot his missiles every round I'd use it with the current rules already tbh. 

[CoffeeGrunt]

I'm gunna say two things. Firstly this has been pretty much how Skyrays have always operate, it just worked a bit differently last edition. Secondly, you're building a list and paying over the odds for 6 wounds per tank. They're 6 pretty reliable wounds, but all the support, the cost of the tanks and the limitations means that it's not really ideal other than if you're facing say, Magnus and wanted to build a tailored list.

 

Other than that, each Skyray can only half-kill a typical opposing tank. You'll need two to have a chance of finishing one, assuming not a single Seeker misses. After that they're a brick with supporting Markerlights and nothing to support.

 

A canny opponent in most armies can simply hold their valuable units out of reach or in reserve, meaning your alpha strike either hits chaff units or doesn't really get to fire at all. Alpha strike strategies really don't tend to fare well this edition, they're too easy to foil.

[elmo]

I had the chance to do this recently during an apocalypse game.

 

The target was a Reaver titan and I ended up firing 22 seekers at it to reduce its wounds and drop its invulnerable save then finishing it off with 7 Hammerheads and a Tiger shark.

 

Worked well for me ;)

[Guest Triszin]

I still think Seeker missle drones would probably make them more viable. Cheap seekers that become an ablative wound after firing

[CoffeeGrunt]

Worked well for me

 

I gave the example of tailoring to kill a big target, but it's still useless in a typical pickup game with no centerpiece.

[elmo]

Yup. But it was worth it to see the look on his face :)

 

For a standard game there are far better options than a one shot seeker unless the rules are going to be improved in the codex.

[Aothaine]

For sure. I'm just trying to find out how to maximize mortal wound output. I watched a batrep with an Ork army doing something similar and it worked pretty well. So I was thinking about using the skyrays as tank assault boats and to secure objectives then use a separate smaller focused gun line to pick off the hordes since the missile would have eaten most of the targets that cause real problems for the T'au. 

 

They totally need a points reduction though. Another thing I was thinking about was Pirhannas. They are fast, have two missiles each and a fusion blaster. I looked at our flyers and I was thoroughly unimpressed. Not sure why these are so much weaker than other flyers and what decision was made that gave them only one weapon. It is just baffling.

 

I think sfPanzer has it right though. Using the Hammerheads with Longstrike for the bonuses he provides will be key to this type of focus.

[Panzer]

The Sunshark is okay tho. Especially against Elite infantry.

But yeah our main problem is that most things are simply too expensive, not that they are bad by default. So I have high hopes for the Codex.

[CoffeeGrunt]

Mortal Wounds aren't really the be-all, end-all though. I saw this with Age of Sigmar where there was an initial obsession with maximising them until people found out it was a bit rubbish. A Poxwalker list would laugh it off the table, for example.

[Aothaine]

Mortal Wounds aren't really the be-all, end-all though. I saw this with Age of Sigmar where there was an initial obsession with maximising them until people found out it was a bit rubbish. A Poxwalker list would laugh it off the table, for example.

 

Swarms would be more difficult to deal with. The list I have in mind has at least three units of Strike Teams geared for anti-infantry. I know that will most likely not come close to clearing out a 90 poxwalker list but not many things in the game can do that right now. T'au don't have their codex yet so I'm mainly just toying around with ideas right now. ^_^

[Panzer]

 

Mortal Wounds aren't really the be-all, end-all though. I saw this with Age of Sigmar where there was an initial obsession with maximising them until people found out it was a bit rubbish. A Poxwalker list would laugh it off the table, for example.

 

Swarms would be more difficult to deal with. The list I have in mind has at least three units of Strike Teams geared for anti-infantry. I know that will most likely not come close to clearing out a 90 poxwalker list but not many things in the game can do that right now. T'au don't have their codex yet so I'm mainly just toying around with ideas right now.

 

Better take Gun Drones instead of Strike Teams, really. And yeah it would be a rather bad list. A one-trick pony when you manage to get first and afterwards just a bad list ^^

[Trevak Dal]

I wish you could use command points to have a seeker barrage come down (either 2d6 s4 D1 or a single s8 ap-3 D6).

[Panzer]

I wish you could use command points to have a seeker barrage come down (either 2d6 s4 D1 or a single s8 ap-3 D6).

I would never ever pay a Command point for an average of 7 S4 D1 hits lol

[Trevak Dal]

 

 

Eh I just thought it would be kinda cool.

 

I had the chance to do this recently during an apocalypse game.

 

The target was a Reaver titan and I ended up firing 22 seekers at it to reduce its wounds and drop its invulnerable save then finishing it off with 7 Hammerheads and a Tiger shark.

 

Worked well for me ;)

That's cool, like in Mass Effect 1 where Sovereign gets killed.

[Panzer]

Mass Seeker shooting is definitely the best way to show your opponents super heavy the finger if nothing else. :D

[CoffeeGrunt]

Massed Ratlings are the most points efficient, hilarious and infuriating way to do it, though. :P

[01RTB01]

Quick comment to the op.

 

5 pathfinders are 40 points as you pay for markerlights on top of base cost.

[01RTB01]

For sure. I'm just trying to find out how to maximize mortal wound output. I watched a batrep with an Ork army doing something similar and it worked pretty well. So I was thinking about using the skyrays as tank assault boats and to secure objectives then use a separate smaller focused gun line to pick off the hordes since the missile would have eaten most of the targets that cause real problems for the T'au.

 

They totally need a points reduction though. Another thing I was thinking about was Pirhannas. They are fast, have two missiles each and a fusion blaster. I looked at our flyers and I was thoroughly unimpressed. Not sure why these are so much weaker than other flyers and what decision was made that gave them only one weapon. It is just baffling.

 

I think sfPanzer has it right though. Using the Hammerheads with Longstrike for the bonuses he provides will be key to this type of focus.

Sunshark bombers are amazing! At 167 points each, mortal wound bomb, missile pod and 4 ion weapons?! I had one last week kill 7/10 tac marine squad and then kill a 5 man primaris aggressor squad.

 

They're anything but poor!

[Panzer]

 

For sure. I'm just trying to find out how to maximize mortal wound output. I watched a batrep with an Ork army doing something similar and it worked pretty well. So I was thinking about using the skyrays as tank assault boats and to secure objectives then use a separate smaller focused gun line to pick off the hordes since the missile would have eaten most of the targets that cause real problems for the T'au.

 

They totally need a points reduction though. Another thing I was thinking about was Pirhannas. They are fast, have two missiles each and a fusion blaster. I looked at our flyers and I was thoroughly unimpressed. Not sure why these are so much weaker than other flyers and what decision was made that gave them only one weapon. It is just baffling.

 

I think sfPanzer has it right though. Using the Hammerheads with Longstrike for the bonuses he provides will be key to this type of focus.

Sunshark bombers are amazing! At 167 points each, mortal wound bomb, missile pod and 4 ion weapons?! I had one last week kill 7/10 tac marine squad and then kill a 5 man primaris aggressor squad.

 

They're anything but poor!

 

Against the right targets they are great. Against MSU, cheap horde or single models they aren't that great tho.

[01RTB01]

Agreed, same as anything. As part of a greater whole though I think they're handy, mobile and mortal wound dealing and relatively cheap.