Changes we want in Chapter Approved

[TrexPushups]

What the title says...

 

...Changes for Chapter Approved for us Ultramarines.

 

Let's discuss.

 

I'm thinking (in no particular order):

 

1) Thunderfire Cannon. Make it cheaper or a flat 9 or 10 shots or something.

 

2) While we're at it, I'd like Servo arms to be worthwhile. A simple "make in addition to your attacks" would suffice.

 

3) Hunters could do with a boost. Damage either 2D6 pick the highest or minimum of 3 damage like Neutron lasers would help.

 

4) Some changes to Stratagems please:

 

- Tactical Flexibility... just drop the thing. Worst Stratagem in the game bar nothing. We already can do this so what the hell?

 

- Orbital Bombardment. A great potential to stop clumping and hero hammer but unfortunately just not worth the CPs right now. Either make it more than just D3, or more accurate. Or both for 3 CPs. For 2 CPs I'd try it if it was 3+ to hit and a flat 6 range, which is what it should be changed to for just D3 mortal wounds.

 

- Chapter Master. 2 CPs. We are an expensive elite army where getting more than 7 CPs is a challenge.

 

5) Vindicators... 2D3 shots or sonething. Jeez it's another one outshone by other choices. Actually what I'd like it to be 2D3 or D6 shots AND causes Mortal Wounds on a wound of a 6. Enemy units within 3" of target unit should suffer D3 Mortal Wounds on a 5+ too.

 

That's it for now. Any thoughts?

I agree with all the unit items.

 

Garcia armored models need either a points drop and possibly a wound count increase. 3 wounds per model is so much stronger than 2 given the number of damage 2 weapons. T5 is not worth what they are charging.

 

Maybe intercessors could use a point cost drop?

 

Stratagems:

Good points Orbital Bombardment definitely needs a flat 6” range.

 

Sternguard stratagem becomes everyone(exclude scouts if you really must) like chaos gets would be a huge boost.

[Tamiel]

 

But in what situation would you really use it to split up a squad? They can split fire and you'll almost never be able to take 2 separate objectives with them. And that's being generous. Just 1 dead Marine and you can't even use it.

 

Objectives have to be spread out anyway so the squad just can't split up and move quickly enough to take objectives and why haven't you got another force going for the other objective?

 

You would split up a squad when:

1) You want to make use of cover better

Suppose you have two pieces of cover that are more than 4" or 5" apart. Neither of these two pieces of cover can fit 10 marines.

If you don't split your marines, you won't get cover. If you split your marines into two squads, they now get cover.

2) You want your opponent to over-commit to killing each squad

If you have two five man squads, the extra damage your opponent does to each 5man squad will not carry over to the other guys. You're more likely to "waste" your opponents shots, especially if he has weapons with a lot of shots on them.

3) If you want to hold multiple objectives that are not super close

 

So there are uses to splitting up your squads in certain situations.

[Captain Idaho]

Why wouldn't you just take 2 smaller squads then? The extra special weapons and sergeants more than make up for a single unit drop. Unless you're wasting all your Command Points on something you can do for free?

[Captain Idaho]

Some really good ideas here. Our tanks, in light with all the other Codex books having 2 shots etc, need either massive points reductions or extra rules.

 

Since Marines are the "beginner army" in GW eyes, I guess that means points drops.

[Captain Idaho]

Here's a good couple I feel Brothers.

 

- Null Zone dropped to Warp Charge 7. At least. Seeing how good some of the powers are in other Codex books and how short ranged this is, I'd drop it to WC6.

 

- Dreadnoughts. All Dreadnoughts should ignore modifiers for moving and shooting. This will make Redemptors the assault specialists they're supposed to be.

 

- Apothecarys are supposed to heal and support their brethren without bias, not just high value Marines like Centurions. I'd like to see Troops choices receive D3 wounds worth of models returned on a 4+. Purely game balance as to why it's easier to heal Tactical Marines over Devastators but it would be fluffier to see Tactical squads supported by an Apothecary rather than a Centurion squad.

[Prot]

I strongly agree with the Dreadnought one.  But the problem is that's a special legion trait of DG so they'll never do it... I wish they would. I agree on a fundamental level that Dreads shouldn't have a sliding damage scale. 

 

Redemptors alone would go from fairly useless to having some function in a list beyond T1. I can't tell you the pain I've had on the damage scale, moving and hitting on 5's. The Icarus becomes a joke, hitting ground units on a 6. It's simply a waste of points upgrading to one of these dreads when a vanilla one is giving you more production down to the last wound... it just doesn't make sense.

 

Also... Macroplasma needs to be adjusted to Damage 2 flat, Damage 3 overcharged. Random D6 shooting rolls need to be D6 with a min of 3 shots. Walking around with these 200+ point models getting one shot off at -1 BS (because you moved) and not being able to overcharge because you suffer mortal wounds from a 1 or 2... wow. 

 

I've played these guys solo and in pairs, sometimes with 2 Techpriests. They really aren't worth it, especially with what the new stuff is capable of. 

Edited November 6, 2017 by Prot

[Captain Idaho]

Yes Redemptors could do with a very forgiving degradation, if any.

 

Probably right about the Death Guard thing. Which I forgot about. Shame really.

 

I feel many Marines weapons struggle with the variance too much. We're an outnumbered, elite army so haven't got the same amount of tools in any 1 army as many other Codex books so really struggle with random shot weapons.

 

Perhaps an army wide rule could help if people feel we need it (I think we do because we need quality to actually be an elite army):

 

Chapter Forged - Space Marines are equipped with the best the Imperium can offer and maintain their weapons of war with a reverance to rival any Tech Priest of the Adeptus Mechanicus.

 

Whenever a model in a Space Marines army uses a weapon with a random number of shots, the amount of shots rolled is always +1 per die rolled.

 

****

 

I consider this might seem powerful but considering the Codex creep we've suffered from, I actually think it fixes multiple units and ensures we're competetive.

 

Alternative could be "a minimum of 2 shots per die rolled".

 

Having a +1 helps Vindicators massively, makes our plasma cannons superb and even makes Centurions better value for points (they're extremely expensive right now). A Thunderfire Cannon now gets 4D3 +4 shots which makes up for it, though that could be a tad strong?

[Stoic Raptor]

Even a reroll, or limiting the result to the normal maximum shots a weapon generates.

[Toxichobbit]

I'd like to see Vindicators get their siege shield back. If a dozer blade on the front of a Russ can give +1 to hit on the charge then the massive slab of plasteel/ceramite on the front of a Vindicator should do something. Even if it gave the same bonus it'd at least be an aknowledgement. It's not like 3 Str6 attacks hitting on 5+ is going to break the game.

 

Furthermore, I'd like to see Vindicators negate the movement penalty when firing their demolisher cannons. They're meant to be siege tanks, ruggedly constructed to take punishment while advancing on the enemy to destroy strong points and collapse buildings on infantry. Yet despite that design, they are worse when advancing and much better off parking mid field and acting like short range artillery.

[phoenix01]

Minor things I wouldn't mind seeing.

 

Primaris Lieutenants are currently worse off than Intercessor sergeants as far as war gear goes. An Intercessor sergeant can take the standard bolt rifle combinations (regular, auto, or stalker) and can also take a power sword in addition to their bolt rifle (regardless of type), but Lieutenants can only take a master crafted auto bolt rifle or a master crafted stalker rifle or a power sword. So the Lieutenant loses either the ranged attack of the bolt rifle or the improved melee attack of the power sword, something that the Intercessor sergeant doesn't have to worry about. Change the Lieutenant so he can take a power sword in addition to his other war gear like the Intercessor sergeants can.

 

Gravis armour should be a 2+ save rather than just T5. This would make Aggressors more survivable and Captains in gravis armour more distinctive than their standard Primaris Captain counterparts.

 

Give the various Primaris units (Intercessors, Hellblasters, Reivers, Aggressors, and Inceptors) the ability to mix and match bolt rifle weapon types. For example, on the Intercessors, change "All models in the unit may replace their bolt rifle with an auto bolt rifle or stalker bolt rifle" to "Any model in the unit may replace their bolt rifle with an auto bolt rifle or stalker bolt rifle." It will make the units more flexible.

 

Allow the Inceptor and Aggressor units to go to a max squad size of 10 models with combat squad at 10 models to 2 units of 5. Leave the minimum size at 3 models.

[Nalim]

Gravis Armor 3W instead of Toughness 5.

 

Point reduction on Inceptors.

 

Point increase on Guilliman - not so sure about that, right now the pure OPness of this guy is all that keeps my Primaris somewhat competetive.

 

Something to make Intercessors worthwhile.

 

A Primaris Transport for less than 250 points. Plz.

[Ishagu]

Guilliman is costed correctly, but a price hike could work if the rest of the army has a price reduction to make units competitive.

Gravis should be 3W T5 or 2W 2+ save :-)

[GreyCrow]

Very cool points raised ! Especially the dreadnought one. I guess they are designed to be used in either role now rather than both, but it's iconic.

 

A couple of points :

- Tactical flexibility : it's indeed good to reduce the number of drops then split ad hoc for very specific situations. Stratagems are designed as tools rather than something to build your army around, though some incentivize certain builds for sure. That said, they don't carry you the game. Killshot for example. Even the Raven Guard one is interesting, but at the cost of exposing your unit versus massed counter rapid fire.

 

- Tactical flexibility in Ultramarines lists : It actually allows to gamble for first turn due to lower amount of drops and the CT mitigating morale on larger squads, as well as synergizing with the Codex Discipline Stratagem which gets more value the more guys in the Tactical Squad.

 

- Demi-Companies/Companies : While it's a very characterful and iconic formation, operational wise, it is very limited.

Yes, theoretically speaking, having a wide variety of squads with different qualities is good to being the right tool at the right moment.

But, practically speaking, the 3-1-1 ratio means that the assault squads' efficiency is blunted due to only having 10 when the fighting needs them, and absolutely useless against gunlines. Things are not less grim for the Devastators, who will have at most 4 extra ranged weapons which won't win them firefights, and won't thin down a purpose built assault force. You would need a MASSIVE amount of CPs to be efficient (and the brigade shows that GW's designers are well aware of this).

 

If the fluff was real, and kept the company codex structure, it is more than likely that deployment orders would be to field 3 tacticals + HQ as a core for tactical level operations, supported by 2 squads of either assault marines, devastator or dreadnoughts, but two of the same to give enough punch where it matters.

For larger engagements, 6 Tactical Squads + 4 unified support squads as mentionned above, 2 from the battle company and 2 from one of the reserve companies (or the armory).

[Izan]

Gravis should be 3W T5 or 2W 2+ save :-)

I think Gravis with 3W t5 should be fine.

 

 

- Extend the chapter tactic to vehicles.

- Authorize Land raiders to fall back and shoot with -1.

- I know this is the an Ultramarines thread but extend Imperial fist chapter tactic buildings part to vehicles would be great.

Edited November 7, 2017 by Izan

[Frater Cornelius]

Rumours are going round. Only point adjustments for existing books. No rule adjustments. Armies without books get relics and Stratagems. Faeit says that Intercessors are now 90 for 5 dudes and Inceptors with Bolters are now 135 for 3 dudes. Razorbacks go up in price, as do twin assault cannons. Pods go down 10pts. Whirlwinds are also cheaper. Librarians are also cheaper.

 

It is a nice touch, but ultimately pointless, because they do not address the underlying flaws of Marines, namely poor vehicle rules and poor Stratagems and Gravis units dying too quickly. But hey, maybe its false and they make Pods 50pts and allow Primaris to ride them.

 

Still, some point changes will make some Primaris units actually worth it, namely Inceptors.

Edited November 8, 2017 by Frater Cornelius

[Ishagu]

Some big and very positive changes coming in Chapter Approved if the rumours are true.

 

First of all, the Primaris units are going to be a lot more competitive. 90 points for 5 Intercessors is excellent. That's 9 points per t4 3+ save wound which is more efficient than any other P.A. troops.

Inceptors are going to be a top unit. 135 points for a basic squad with assault bolters is excellent. A Must take squad thanks to their movement, flight and ability to deploy from reserves. The Plasma variant for under 180 points is very dangerous. We're talking about a minimum unit with 6D3 plasma shots and AP-4 coming in from reserve for a competitive price. Game changer for Marines as these will now be the premier deepstriking choices.

 

Terminator squads are now under 200 points unless taking special weapons - a very welcome change. Agressors are also cheaper and more worthwhile.

 

The Razorback has been nerfed with a small price increase and the Twin Assault Cannon is more expensive also - this comes alongside a 10 point price reduction for Drop Pods. This will be food for thought.

 

 

Overall the Primaris units are looking much, much better and will probably benefit most from Chapter Approved.

Some of the Tanks have had minor drops too which is a welcome change that might make a difference over the points of a full army.

Edited November 8, 2017 by Ishagu

[Frater Cornelius]

I hope that Predators and Dreads will get more time in the spotlight. Honestly, if I see one more Razorback, I will eat it Oo

[GreyCrow]

Thanks Ishagu, sounds good indeed!

 

Inceptors with Plasma were terribly overpriced versus the Hellblasters' variants. Having to drop them within 18" of the taret exposed them to a lot of flakk while Gravis' extra T was not as relevant against the anti-Primaris weapons.

[crazyterran]

It's fakeit. Don't go thinking any of it is true.

[Captain Idaho]

I'd be disappointed if this was the limit of the changes since Chapter Approved is a great opportunity.

[Tamiel]

Why wouldn't you just take 2 smaller squads then? The extra special weapons and sergeants more than make up for a single unit drop. 

 

Not if that single drop puts you from having one less drop than the enemy to having equal drops to the enemy, and likewise not if that one drop puts you from having equal drops to having one more drop than the enemy.

Edited November 10, 2017 by Tamiel

[Nalim]

The Plasma variant for under 180 points is very dangerous. We're talking about a minimum unit with 6D3 plasma shots and AP-4 coming in from reserve for a competitive price. Game changer for Marines as these will now be the premier deepstriking choices.

 

Plus Plasma Inceptors will actually be a Primaris unit that profits heavily from the Ultramarine chapter. If these guys deploy outside of captain range (which will, as I assume, happen quite often) their suicide probability when shooting four times is 52% normally (sick), but only 10% if you use the Ultramarine Stratagem.

[Captain Idaho]

 

Why wouldn't you just take 2 smaller squads then? The extra special weapons and sergeants more than make up for a single unit drop.

 

 

Not if that single drop puts you from having one less drop than the enemy to having equal drops to the enemy, and likewise not if that one drop puts you from having equal drops to having one more drop than the enemy.

You just can't plan for it though. You don't know how many drops the opponent will have until the lists are revealed.

 

And for it to work, you have to have exactly a single drop more or equal drops for it to work if you use it once (1st turn) and need to have full squads.

 

It's so niche it's not worth planning your list for it. And if you're planning your list to cope then you don't need to use this Stratagem.

 

:)

[Aothaine]

Just want to say that I really like Tactical Flexibility. It allows you to split a unit mid game to grab two objectives. In the right circumstances it can be really powerful if used on a tactical or scout squad to go and obsec objectives from your opponent in the last turn.

[Captain Idaho]

Yes but it's so niche. What if just 1 model is killed in the unit? What if the models are just too far away from the 2 objectives? What if the opponent decides to wipe out the 2 of them?

 

Page space is an issue in a Codex and Tactical Flexibility is taking up a slot that could have been more useful. Like a Teleport for Terminators. Or a Mortal Wound generation from Jump Packs slamming into combat. Or whatever.

 

Things that are fluffy and useful.