Chaos Space Marines "lost" equipment + why play CSM

[rendingon1+]

Ok, I was always curious why Traitor Astrtes have no items like plasma cannon, multi melta, thunder hammer. Not to mention some vehicles. I never dug deep enough to find a reason, but thought that you guys may have some knowledge on this particular matter. I mean was there any explenation from the design team in past ages or whatever?

 

I'm trying to convine myself to make some "chaos" AL/IW force but after reading a codex I'm severely disappointed with the lack of options both in equipment and units department when compared to imperial marines. (Also I hate demon engines and the new codex fluff).

 

I am aware that this state of things is a reality for a long time but than again it's time to try something new. I don't want to make loyalist "counts as" (because what would be a point) but somehow I feel the CSM codex is just... bland.

[Res Ipsa Loquitur]

The justification is that they aren't supplied by the Mechanicus anymore and so don't have access or the means to repair/maintain.

 

In reality, it's because GW has to keep the poster boys stronger than Chaos.

FYI, an AL army using the CSM codex would not be at all eye-raising or unfluffy.

FYI, an AL army using the CSM codex would not be at all eye-raising or unfluffy.

[Aothaine]

The CSM have access to the dark mechanicus. I think the fluffy reason is that the only CSMs to survive were usually geared for an older style of combat that was used when the legions were on the prowl. So they are more focused on closing the gap and using brute force to crash into the enemy. They wouldn't have much time to repair weapons on a chapter or even legion wide range due to them attacking then going into the warp. The warp can then spit them out for the next fight in what seems to them as several hours but it could be 100 years outside the warp. You also need to remember that they also pillaging what they can from battles. If space marines are losing and know death is certain they might be destroying their ancient weaponry instead of letting it fall into the hands of CSMs.

[Panzer]

 

 

I am aware that this state of things is a reality for a long time but than again it's time to try something new. I don't want to make loyalist "counts as" (because what would be a point) but somehow I feel the CSM codex is just... bland.

Well of course the Codex feels bland if you don't like all the Daemon stuff. Without it you barely have a Codex and could just play loyalist Marines instead. Maybe you simply have to accept that CSM isn't for you, since GW won't go back on the whole daemon thing. 

[adreal]

Why play chaos due to lack of options?

 

Cause the tools we have available (daemon options) should close the gap made up by lack of equipment.

 

Apart from Robby G, the chaos codex and imperial codex is pretty close in terms of balance, yeah imperials can have better close combat termies, but our shooty ones are heads and shoulders over theirs.

 

Sternguard are better then chosen, but there is little that can stand with khorne beserkers in combat.

 

Imperial soup is stronger then chaos soup due to options avaible to them (and Robby G) but we can take M n M lists.

 

Also death hex is better then null zone, and we have prescience and warptime.

 

And my personal, final reason as to why play chaos over imperial, thanks to the daemon Prince we can have something to count as non daemonic primarches (night hunter in the scouring, Alpharius whenever in history, perturabo before the iron cage) that buff their legion as opposed to a counts as with Robby, who will buff Ultramarines above any other legion

[Res Ipsa Loquitur]

Indeed. The daemon forges that can make a plasma-spewing dinobot but not a Plasma Cannon and who can't figure out a Thunder Hammer, despite employing concussive technology on Power Mauls.

 

Makes sense.

[shandwen]

People also seem to forget that until fw dipped into the heresy, all of the options in loyalist 40k didn't quite exist when the traitors were loyalists. There appears to be a huge rewrite that leaves people wondering why.

[Panzer]

Indeed. The daemon forges that can make a plasma-spewing dinobot but not a Plasma Cannon and who can't figure out a Thunder Hammer, despite employing concussive technology on Power Mauls.

 

Makes sense.

It does make sense. The Dark Mechanicum doesn't WANT to make those things since they are way more interested in fiddling with daemonic stuff. Also they probably lost access to the STC for the Thunderhammer but not for the Power Mace. It's a universe where everyone only builds things they have STCs for instead of thinking for themselves and the amount of thinking the Dark Mechanicum does themselves is directed towards daemonic engines.

So it's not about whether they can do it but more about whether they want to do it.

[SanguinaryGuardsman]

Ok, I was always curious why Traitor Astrtes have no items like plasma cannon, multi melta, thunder hammer. Not to mention some vehicles. I never dug deep enough to find a reason, but thought that you guys may have some knowledge on this particular matter. I mean was there any explenation from the design team in past ages or whatever?

 

I'm trying to convine myself to make some "chaos" AL/IW force but after reading a codex I'm severely disappointed with the lack of options both in equipment and units department when compared to imperial marines. (Also I hate demon engines and the new codex fluff).

 

I am aware that this state of things is a reality for a long time but than again it's time to try something new. I don't want to make loyalist "counts as" (because what would be a point) but somehow I feel the CSM codex is just... bland.

 

 

It is true that loyalists have more toys and better kits but the CSM codex is straight up superior to the marine codex.  Their stratagems, psychic powers, warlord traits, and legion traits are all better with a couple of exceptions.

 

Marines don't get the following AWSOME stuff:

Warptime

Veterans of the Long War

Renegade legion trait

Daemon Princes

Prescience

Death Hex

Warptime

Obliterators

Endless Cacophony

Helldrakes

Blue Horrors

Cultists

Warptime

Night Lords legion trait

Daemon Engines

Daemon Shell

Veterans of the Long War

Warptime

 

 

Also, Loyalists dont get Warptime.  I heard that is pretty good.  The CSM codex is the least bland imo.

 

You can run a horde army that summons gribblies all over the place.  You can have an elite terminator force with Abaddon leading it.  You can have a pure shooty gunline with Alpha Legion or Emperor's Children.  You can have any and all flavours of renegades.  You can bring Chaos Daemon allies and unload the fromage with the Changeling/Horrors/Magnus/Mortarion.  What is missing? Multi meltas?  Grav?  LandspeedersLOL? 

 

The only thing that chaos marines dont get that I think they should is the land raider variants, crusader and redeemer.  

[Panzer]

 

Ok, I was always curious why Traitor Astrtes have no items like plasma cannon, multi melta, thunder hammer. Not to mention some vehicles. I never dug deep enough to find a reason, but thought that you guys may have some knowledge on this particular matter. I mean was there any explenation from the design team in past ages or whatever?

 

I'm trying to convine myself to make some "chaos" AL/IW force but after reading a codex I'm severely disappointed with the lack of options both in equipment and units department when compared to imperial marines. (Also I hate demon engines and the new codex fluff).

 

I am aware that this state of things is a reality for a long time but than again it's time to try something new. I don't want to make loyalist "counts as" (because what would be a point) but somehow I feel the CSM codex is just... bland.

 

 

It is true that loyalists have more toys and better kits but the CSM codex is straight up superior to the marine codex.  Their stratagems, psychic powers, warlord traits, and legion traits are all better with a couple of exceptions.

 

Marines don't get the following AWSOME stuff:

Warptime

Veterans of the Long War

Renegade legion trait

Daemon Princes

Prescience

Death Hex

Warptime

Obliterators

Endless Cacophony

Helldrakes

Blue Horrors

Cultists

Warptime

Night Lords legion trait

Daemon Engines

Daemon Shell

Veterans of the Long War

Warptime

 

 

Also, Loyalists dont get Warptime.  I heard that is pretty good.  The CSM codex is the least bland imo.

 

You can run a horde army that summons gribblies all over the place.  You can have an elite terminator force with Abaddon leading it.  You can have a pure shooty gunline with Alpha Legion or Emperor's Children.  You can have any and all flavours of renegades.  You can bring Chaos Daemon allies and unload the fromage with the Changeling/Horrors/Magnus/Mortarion.  What is missing? Multi meltas?  Grav?  LandspeedersLOL? 

 

The only thing that chaos marines dont get that I think they should is the land raider variants, crusader and redeemer.  

 

Hey when we use those lists than we should do the same for the loyalists as well since they get things like AssBacks, Conscripts, cheap smite spam without FW, the Salamander trait, Leman Russes, Wyvern, AdMech stuff and now I'm too lazy to list more tbh. :D

 

I'd say both Codexes (not soup) are fairly equally matched with a slight advantage for loyalists for building better soup lists and Guilliman.

[SanguinaryGuardsman]

 

 

Ok, I was always curious why Traitor Astrtes have no items like plasma cannon, multi melta, thunder hammer. Not to mention some vehicles. I never dug deep enough to find a reason, but thought that you guys may have some knowledge on this particular matter. I mean was there any explenation from the design team in past ages or whatever?

 

I'm trying to convine myself to make some "chaos" AL/IW force but after reading a codex I'm severely disappointed with the lack of options both in equipment and units department when compared to imperial marines. (Also I hate demon engines and the new codex fluff).

 

I am aware that this state of things is a reality for a long time but than again it's time to try something new. I don't want to make loyalist "counts as" (because what would be a point) but somehow I feel the CSM codex is just... bland.

 

 

It is true that loyalists have more toys and better kits but the CSM codex is straight up superior to the marine codex.  Their stratagems, psychic powers, warlord traits, and legion traits are all better with a couple of exceptions.

 

Marines don't get the following AWSOME stuff:

Warptime

Veterans of the Long War

Renegade legion trait

Daemon Princes

Prescience

Death Hex

Warptime

Obliterators

Endless Cacophony

Helldrakes

Blue Horrors

Cultists

Warptime

Night Lords legion trait

Daemon Engines

Daemon Shell

Veterans of the Long War

Warptime

 

 

Also, Loyalists dont get Warptime.  I heard that is pretty good.  The CSM codex is the least bland imo.

 

You can run a horde army that summons gribblies all over the place.  You can have an elite terminator force with Abaddon leading it.  You can have a pure shooty gunline with Alpha Legion or Emperor's Children.  You can have any and all flavours of renegades.  You can bring Chaos Daemon allies and unload the fromage with the Changeling/Horrors/Magnus/Mortarion.  What is missing? Multi meltas?  Grav?  LandspeedersLOL? 

 

The only thing that chaos marines dont get that I think they should is the land raider variants, crusader and redeemer.  

 

Hey when we use those lists than we should do the same for the loyalists as well since they get things like AssBacks, Conscripts, cheap smite spam without FW, the Salamander trait, Leman Russes, Wyvern, AdMech stuff and now I'm too lazy to list more tbh.

 

I'd say both Codexes (not soup) are fairly equally matched with a slight advantage for loyalists for building better soup lists and Guilliman.

 

Setting soup aside... I still think the CSM codex is superior.  

 

You soup like a fluff first kind of guy though.  What units/abilities are there in the CSM codex that you DO like? What models do you like?  

 

Answer those.. then make a list.  You wont be disappointed.

 

I like possessed marines, daemon princes, obliterators.  Basically anything that has had a bit too much of that warp dust.  I also like psychic powers... especially the silly powers like gift of chaos and warptime.  

 

At first I didnt care for daemon engines but the kits and models for them are just great.  Im definately going to get some maulerfiends and helldrakes in the future.  

Edited November 3, 2017 by SanguinaryGuardsman

[Leif Bearclaw]

The original reason actually was 'because Chaos are old'. Back, long before FW started their ramping up of Heresy Marine tech (and everything since Horus being loss, decline and grimderp), the Imperium was still making some, very slow tech advancements. In this version of the Heresy, neither side had Thunder Hammers, man portable plasma cannons, assault cannons, cyclones, land speeders etc. (also, power swords were much rarer than other PWs). But by the time 40k rolls around, Imperial Marines have got some gear upgrades, but Chaos has had Chaos-y upgrades instead. There was actually a mechanic to have more recent renegades with 'modern' Marine tech, but I can't recall exactly how it worked.

 

It's more of a legacy thing than 'GW rigs it to keep Chaos weak' (plus a bit of success feeding success, Loyalist Marines are hugely popular, so more new kits makes sense from a monetary perspective) really. Plus, Chaos get a whole bunch of unique stuff Loyalists don't. If you don't like the Daemon engines and similar, then modern CSMs might not be the best fit, as that 'corrupt Warp-power' route really seems to be the USP for Chaos Marines these days (which also makes sense, imo).

[Lay]

Ok, I was always curious why Traitor Astrtes have no items like plasma cannon, multi melta, thunder hammer. Not to mention some vehicles. I never dug deep enough to find a reason, but thought that you guys may have some knowledge on this particular matter. I mean was there any explenation from the design team in past ages or whatever?

 

Much of the setting is still based on lore established in 2nd edition, and back then Chaos Space Marines were synonymous with the Traitor Legions. A lot of the wargear descriptions in Codex: Chaos from 1996 said that the Traitor Legions were stuck with equipment that was older and easier to maintain than that of their loyalist counterparts.

Of course, unit and wargear options have changed a lot since then, but there are still plenty of differences between loyalists and traitors that stem from that design approach. It's something that became really obvious when the 4th edition Codex gave Renegade Chapters more attention in the fluff.

 

As for your army, you could include some Forgeworld stuff. There's plenty of non-daemonic units from 30k available to Chaos Marines.

[Carrack]

The Loyalists have to get exclusive goodies or the game doesn't work. Technology is part of that. If they didn't, and chaos marines got everything that loyalist get, plus daemons, warp shenanigans, and daemon engines, then chaos marines would just be vastly superior to loyalist, which isn't much fun.

 

That being said, none of the explanations for why chaos marines don't have land speeders or man portable multimeltas make much sense. The claim that they don't have the support network to maintain plasma cannons might work with some piratical warbands like Talos's 10th Company, but doesn't make much sense with warbands that maintain Imperator titans and battleships. Recently freed renegades make the idea that certain technology is a jealously guarded secret a weak claim. It didn't take long for Kranon to get horns and spikey armor, and he still had battle brothers and techmarines from the Crimson Sabers with him, logically, he should have been able to keep Imperial tech, certainly loyal chapters have gone for longer periods without direct support from the Imperium and kept their technology.

 

In the end, I just chalk it up to another flaw in a setting that has been written by dozens, if not hundreds of authors over decades. There are a few other inconsistencies as well, and while they may detract a little, the awesomeness of the grim, dark future, and chaos marines in particular, more than make up for it.

[Azekai]

Seems like the conundrum boils down to 'I wanna play chaos space marines but think the chaos part is icky and stupid.'

I get that; not everyone can withstand the corrupt glory offered by the Ruinous Powers. CSM lose out on some conventional Astartes gear but gain daemoic allies and wargear, which seems like an even trade to me (I love daemon princes/engines!).

However, if you don't like those things, stick with loyalist rules... then you won't have to talk yourself into playing an army you dislike significant elements of. 

[Prot]

Way back in the day I think that Iron Warriors best suited what the OP wants. I played them for ten years and I confess at first I wanted no Daemon space hippies in my army.

 

Then I got into KDK and some of the older models are hat some didn’t like drew me in...like Defilers.

 

I actually think you can still do this with IW. Daemons don’t have to be a part of your army but I think Daemonic units fall in many categories of being helpful to horrible.

 

To give my two cents on the bigger issue I actually feel if we look at the codexes without Primarchs, and only look at units from within, the Chaos codex is much more diverse.

 

For years I lined away for a Chaos basic drop pod. Drop pods are so bad now i couldn’t care less.

 

When I am playing my marines effectively, they are basically a mobile fire base. They can’t Assault like chaos, and they can’t support with psychics either.

 

I’m not sold on many of the daemonic, expensive engine vehicles, but I don’t have to be, there’s Termies, oblits, DPs, Sorcs, Zerkers, Cultists, etc. Etc.. When you’re playing as marines there’s a much more finite playstyle that you have to really enjoy, and as solid as their troops are, they really only do one thing well. Chaos is diversity.

[Panzer]

Way back in the day I think that Iron Warriors best suited what the OP wants. I played them for ten years and I confess at first I wanted no Daemon space hippies in my army.

 

Then I got into KDK and some of the older models are hat some didn’t like drew me in...like Defilers.

 

 

I know right! At first I thougth Defilers and Soul Grinder are super ugly and I wouldn't want to play them ever. Now I think they are incredibly awesome and I'm sad their rules don't live up to their looks. I guess I got slowly corrupted irl the more contact I had with Chaos. :D

[Prot]

 

Way back in the day I think that Iron Warriors best suited what the OP wants. I played them for ten years and I confess at first I wanted no Daemon space hippies in my army.

Then I got into KDK and some of the older models are hat some didn’t like drew me in...like Defilers.

 

I know right! At first I thougth Defilers and Soul Grinder are super ugly and I wouldn't want to play them ever. Now I think they are incredibly awesome and I'm sad their rules don't live up to their looks. I guess I got slowly corrupted irl the more contact I had with Chaos. :D

Yea it’s a strange occurrence....living that chaos lifestyle somehow twists our perceptions. ;)

[Lucerne]

Even now, putting crunch to Chaos fluff is the square peg and round hole scenario.

 

GW will release half a dozen kits for LSM no one even asked for before Chaos wargear even gets so much as a second look, so don't hold your breath for Chaos even getting updated options for stuff they DO have as wargear options.

[gezabutla]

How else are we Chaos players supposed to adopt the same hatred and bitterness that the Traitors themselves possess?

In all seriousness though, I'm fine with Chaos having Daemonic alternatives, but their base wargear doesn't need to be this sparse. A Chaos multi-melta isn't going to invalidate Loyalist trinkets...or a Razorback; by the Dark Gods do I want a Chaos Razorback!

[Sception]

Seems like the conundrum boils down to 'I wanna play chaos space marines but think the chaos part is icky and stupid.'

This. If you don't like 'chaos', maybe don't play 'chaos marines'. 40k isn't 30k, we're not talking about a civik war between two identical factions anymore, there has been 10,000 years of divergence, 10,000 years of the chaos gods shaping the chaos legions as they will, without the emperor's will to protect them.

 

If your complaint is that chaos's stuff is less good or less varried, you might have some justification, but if your complaint is that you want your chaos marine army to have imperial stuff instead of the chaosy stuff we actually have, then you're probably playing the wrong army, or maybe the wrong game.

 

Try a breakaway chapter that still uses the loyalist rules, like Relictors, or find/start a gaming group that plays 30k.

Edited November 6, 2017 by malisteen

[Galron]

I field my IW interchangeably between chaos and marine codices making them either IW or Silver Skulls. I too am not big into the whole dinobot thing and have exactly zero in my possession. I field my IW as if they are either just post HH and somehow left all their volkite weapons behind (because story?). Their dreads and contemptors are not insane nor does anyone dare insult them by calling them hellbrutes. When I field them as chaos I simply give everyone the MoS since its free and it allows them to reload faster and shoot again. Chaos also allows for 20 man squads like the old legion days. I also use 4 squads of terminators in cataphractii armor because that is what most of the legions should be wearing for terminator armor even in 40k since indominatus was just starting to be fielded at the time of the HH. I am eagerly looking forward for FW to finally update HH to 8th edition, hopefully in the next 2 years or so. I know they said it wouldn't be too long after their new rulebook came out but "not too long" for FW means something very different to them than it does for most people. Until then, at least most of the HH vehicles are there.

 

Still makes no sense why more modern gear isn't in the game. Chaos forces, especially the Night Lords are well known to salvage and reuses Imperial gear. Its in the fluff where a raptor was pulling an Imperial heavy bolter off a devastator wondering how much he could get in trade for it. In 2nd edition you could buy pre-heresy equipment like storm shields and thunder hammers out of the Marine codex for something like a 25% point increase to reflect salvage or that trooper being from the Heresy. Further if you played Huron Blackheart as a character you could buy troops and vehicles out of the Imperial codex to represent recent defectors bringing their stuff with them.

[Cryptix]

How else are we Chaos players supposed to adopt the same hatred and bitterness that the Traitors themselves possess?

 

In all seriousness though, I'm fine with Chaos having Daemonic alternatives, but their base wargear doesn't need to be this sparse. A Chaos multi-melta isn't going to invalidate Loyalist trinkets...or a Razorback; by the Dark Gods do I want a Chaos Razorback!

Isn't the reason we don't have those is because they were discovered after the fall?

[Slave to Darkness]

 

How else are we Chaos players supposed to adopt the same hatred and bitterness that the Traitors themselves possess?

 

In all seriousness though, I'm fine with Chaos having Daemonic alternatives, but their base wargear doesn't need to be this sparse. A Chaos multi-melta isn't going to invalidate Loyalist trinkets...or a Razorback; by the Dark Gods do I want a Chaos Razorback!

Isn't the reason we don't have those is because they were discovered after the fall?

 

Predators without sponsons should have a troop capacity. Apart from turret shape what is the difference between a twin Las Razorback and a Las Pred?

[Panzer]

 

 

How else are we Chaos players supposed to adopt the same hatred and bitterness that the Traitors themselves possess?

 

In all seriousness though, I'm fine with Chaos having Daemonic alternatives, but their base wargear doesn't need to be this sparse. A Chaos multi-melta isn't going to invalidate Loyalist trinkets...or a Razorback; by the Dark Gods do I want a Chaos Razorback!

Isn't the reason we don't have those is because they were discovered after the fall?

 

Predators without sponsons should have a troop capacity. Apart from turret shape what is the difference between a twin Las Razorback and a Las Pred?

 

The STC. Reason enough for the 40k universe. :P