Chaos Space Marines "lost" equipment + why play CSM

[Slave to Darkness]

 

 

 

 

 

 

How else are we Chaos players supposed to adopt the same hatred and bitterness that the Traitors themselves possess?

 

In all seriousness though, I'm fine with Chaos having Daemonic alternatives, but their base wargear doesn't need to be this sparse. A Chaos multi-melta isn't going to invalidate Loyalist trinkets...or a Razorback; by the Dark Gods do I want a Chaos Razorback!

Isn't the reason we don't have those is because they were discovered after the fall?

Predators without sponsons should have a troop capacity. Apart from turret shape what is the difference between a twin Las Razorback and a Las Pred?

The STC. Reason enough for the 40k universe. :P

Im sure GW could 'handwavium' a crap excuse to fix that, would be easier to swallow than anything post Gathering Storm. Its not like the Lascannon power packs are inside the Pred, they are mounted on the back of the turret, yet the Razorbacks aint. Jeez GW let us transport 5 dudes in a nude Predator, its not exactly game breaking...

[gezabutla]

 

 

 

 

How else are we Chaos players supposed to adopt the same hatred and bitterness that the Traitors themselves possess?

 

In all seriousness though, I'm fine with Chaos having Daemonic alternatives, but their base wargear doesn't need to be this sparse. A Chaos multi-melta isn't going to invalidate Loyalist trinkets...or a Razorback; by the Dark Gods do I want a Chaos Razorback!

Isn't the reason we don't have those is because they were discovered after the fall?

Predators without sponsons should have a troop capacity. Apart from turret shape what is the difference between a twin Las Razorback and a Las Pred?

The STC. Reason enough for the 40k universe.

Im sure GW could 'handwavium' a crap excuse to fix that, would be easier to swallow than anything post Gathering Storm. Its not like the Lascannon power packs are inside the Pred, they are mounted on the back of the turret, yet the Razorbacks aint. Jeez GW let us transport 5 dudes in a nude Predator, its not exactly game breaking...

 

Yeah they were a post-heresy 'rediscovery', but it's not like they're wildly innovative, or that they deviate from the traditional chassis in any extreme way. Surely it can't be hard for some Chaos Lord to say to his Warpsmith "Can you put a sponson on top of my Rhino, instead of on the side? I saw the Imperials do it and it was pretty cool. Thanks."

 

Unfortunately, I think the meat of the issue is that trying to depict the fluff in a logical way isn't conducive to a varied game system. They obviously have to be different from a gaming perspective, but there doesn't seem to be a way to explain it in the fluff that doesn't carry a whiff of bull.

 

I do like the idea of paying a surplus to pinch gear from the Loyalist's codex, though.

[ChazSexington]

I don't think there's any decent excuse for the Legions getting rid of their drop pods, land speeders, man-held multi-meltas, volkites etc. Make things that were difficult to maintain 0-1, but at least have them available. 

 

I think GW is too focussed on letting players bring whatever they want, which is why this edition is effectively Unbound, leading to at times, wild swings in power level. GW should restrict each Warband much more closely for Matched Play. Narrative can be the Unbound version full of Alpha Legion Khorne Berzerkers and Noise Marines, or Mortarion teaming up with Magnus and a Knight. 

 

Alpha Legion Restrictions:
0-1 Possessed.

No Dark Apostles.

No Cult units.

0-1 Obliterators.

May only summon 0-1 Daemon units.

 

Renegade Restrictions:

0-1 Cult Units.

No Dark Apostles.

Multi-melta replaces Autocannon and Reaper autocannon in all instances.

0-1 Dinobots.

May take Land Speeders, Razorbacks etc.

 

This was just something I came up with on the fly. 

[Zuvassin]

In regards to the "wanting loyalist stuff must mean you hate the Chaos part of Chaos"...

 

...If you read the Designer's Notes to the 2nd Edition Codex Chaos, Andy Chambers explicitly stated that they based that codex's interpretation of Chaos armies on the '95 tournament scene, which indicated to GW that gamers saw chaos as being warbands of Marines supported with a few daemon packs.

 

So they designed an armylist that was CSM with some summoned daemon support. Part of that was allowing CSMs to take "post-heresy" equipment from Codex Ultramarines for a +25% points premium, including vehicles, wargear, and Terminator Armour (in 2nd, that meant getting Storm Bolters instead of combi-bolters, teleport-homers, and some other bennies that loyalist Termie armour had over the Chaos version).

 

This notion that the only thing that defines Chaos is the explicitly Chaotic (daemons, daemonic engines, etc.) is frankly a bit narrow-minded. Going back to 2nd (just as an example, I'm not trying to argue any edition is superior or inferior), but loyalist Marine players were limited to 10 man squads for Tacs, Devs, and Assault Marines - tailoring your squad size was a CSM thing, and was also the reason Marines had the combat squad rule.

 

In other words, you could play a CSM army with zero daemons (and not counting Dreads, there weren't any daemon engines in the Codex). What made them "Chaotic" was a combination of the Marks/Gods stuff but also the army organization. Squads could be built in rag-tag numbers. The Aspiring Champions for your squads were bought as actual characters from the same part of the force org as Lords and Sorcerors, not as direct squad upgrades.

 

In modern 40k, Marine players stopped suffering from that sort of thing, but GW simply never returned the favor by similarly opening up the CSM list to post-heresy equipment, either directly or by retaining the 2nd edition rule for buying them at a points premium. Loyalists got the flexibility and some of the specialization squads (Vanguard, and now Primaris) that were the hallmark of Chaos Space Marines, and in turn CSM essentially got dino-bots.

 

Personally, I would have preferred loyalist vehicles and other options that adhere to a rag-tag / mercenary style Marine force, rather than one that essentially has to be warp-corrupted or god-dedicated because cult Marines and daemon engines are the only real meaningfully unique things left to CSMs.

[GreyCrow]

Very cool responses so far ! :D

 

Agreed with the faction design comments. Chaos is chaos and it's a big part of the draw, uniqueness of the faction.

 

To go even further in this line of thinking : actually W40k's faction are not so mechanically different, they just differ in theming.

The game is designed and balanced according to the following :

- No strategical differences between the factions (as in, we fight battles of equal points, where both armies know the full strength and disposition of the other)

- Force Org shared across all factions (HQ, Troops, Elite, etc)

- Core mechanic of having a strong balance between Troops and Support units, with 8th edition focusing on scaling up va diversity (to sell more models!)

 

It mainly boils down to which skin you prefer and which slight statically variations you like more, and it's all fine !

[Panzer]

In regards to the "wanting loyalist stuff must mean you hate the Chaos part of Chaos"...

 

 

Nobody said that tho. OP literally said he doesn't like all the daemonic stuff in the Codex.

[Panzer]

To go even further in this line of thinking : actually W40k's faction are not so mechanically different, they just differ in theming.

The game is designed and balanced according to the following :

- No strategical differences between the factions (as in, we fight battles of equal points, where both armies know the full strength and disposition of the other)

- Force Org shared across all factions (HQ, Troops, Elite, etc)

Yeah, we artificially limit ourselves to play with an army about as strong as the one we face (aka same amount of points). A big part of proper strategy in warfare would be to ensure that you fight with a bigger force against a smaller force and every force with different kind of units available depending on the situation. This is a game tho so we only have these unnatural scenarios. Something like that would never really happen in real warfare (at least not if you are serious about winning). ^^

[GreyCrow]

Absolutely ! And GW keeps promoting this confusion whether willingly or unwillingly. Competitively speaking, a game of 40k is like bowling tournaments. Skill differences matters up to a point where every player is equal and the first one to open up a weakness is defeated.

In 40k, we just add dice :P

[Zuvassin]

 

In regards to the "wanting loyalist stuff must mean you hate the Chaos part of Chaos"...

 

 

Nobody said that tho. OP literally said he doesn't like all the daemonic stuff in the Codex.

 

 

"Nobody said that"? Really??

 

 

 

Maybe you simply have to accept that CSM isn't for you, since GW won't go back on the whole daemon thing.

 

 

However, if you don't like those things, stick with loyalist rules....

 

 

If you don't like the Daemon engines and similar, then modern CSMs might not be the best fit, as that 'corrupt Warp-power' route really seems to be the USP for Chaos Marines these days (which also makes sense, imo).

 

 

This. If you don't like 'chaos', maybe don't play 'chaos marines'.

[Panzer]

Nice quotes but none of them say what you claim they do.

[Ishagu]

The chaos codex is excellent, and has more viable variation than the loyalist book.

 

I think the lack of some options keep the forces divergent. Chaos have their unique units to fall back on, such as Oblits and Maulerfiends.

[RapatoR]

In regards to the "wanting loyalist stuff must mean you hate the Chaos part of Chaos"...

 

Hidden Content

...If you read the Designer's Notes to the 2nd Edition Codex Chaos, Andy Chambers explicitly stated that they based that codex's interpretation of Chaos armies on the '95 tournament scene, which indicated to GW that gamers saw chaos as being warbands of Marines supported with a few daemon packs.

 

So they designed an armylist that was CSM with some summoned daemon support. Part of that was allowing CSMs to take "post-heresy" equipment from Codex Ultramarines for a +25% points premium, including vehicles, wargear, and Terminator Armour (in 2nd, that meant getting Storm Bolters instead of combi-bolters, teleport-homers, and some other bennies that loyalist Termie armour had over the Chaos version).

 

This notion that the only thing that defines Chaos is the explicitly Chaotic (daemons, daemonic engines, etc.) is frankly a bit narrow-minded. Going back to 2nd (just as an example, I'm not trying to argue any edition is superior or inferior), but loyalist Marine players were limited to 10 man squads for Tacs, Devs, and Assault Marines - tailoring your squad size was a CSM thing, and was also the reason Marines had the combat squad rule.

 

In other words, you could play a CSM army with zero daemons (and not counting Dreads, there weren't any daemon engines in the Codex). What made them "Chaotic" was a combination of the Marks/Gods stuff but also the army organization. Squads could be built in rag-tag numbers. The Aspiring Champions for your squads were bought as actual characters from the same part of the force org as Lords and Sorcerors, not as direct squad upgrades.

 

In modern 40k, Marine players stopped suffering from that sort of thing, but GW simply never returned the favor by similarly opening up the CSM list to post-heresy equipment, either directly or by retaining the 2nd edition rule for buying them at a points premium. Loyalists got the flexibility and some of the specialization squads (Vanguard, and now Primaris) that were the hallmark of Chaos Space Marines, and in turn CSM essentially got dino-bots.

 

Personally, I would have preferred loyalist vehicles and other options that adhere to a rag-tag / mercenary style Marine force, rather than one that essentially has to be warp-corrupted or god-dedicated because cult Marines and daemon engines are the only real meaningfully unique things left to CSMs.

 

That is very insightful post, thank you. It just confirms my belief that there should two codexes - first for fully fledged CSM and second for some kind of Genestealer-style codex for the "less chaotic CSM".

 

I personally think that CMS should be both of the worlds - a bit of chaos and bit of (more loosely organized) Space Marines. I take (old) raptor models as a perfect example - their origin was throwback to the "old" days, with just the right amount of "chaosiness" mixed in. I would love the same thing being done for say jetbikes or landspeeders.

 

What I personally find odd is that there seems to be constant movement of goalposts on where the differences between CSM and LSM are/should be.

 

The Loyalist should be more rigidly organized and not so flexible as CSM. That was until the chapter tactics became a thing and suddenly loyalists have more variability.

They are supposed to not to tinker with established STC patterns, while CSM should have no such restrains. But when the new variants of the Land Raider appeared, it is for loyalists, while CSM ride in a same old thing.

The codex dictates loyalists are not supposed to have many flyers, while CSM are not restricted by it. That is until flyers became a thing, where loyalists get a whole load of them while CSM get one.

Obliterators - centurions. Possessed - wulfen. 'nuff said.

Loyalist should have newer stuff, while CSM are supposed to have older stuff, while l. Until the Horus Heresy started being a thing, and suddenly the loyalist get access to more HH stuff than CSM do.

 

However I understand that this gripe of mine ultimately boils down to two things.

 

 

Lack of updated models - I think this is most prominent and self-explanatory problem of "undivided" CSM. There are no hand-held multi-meltas, plasma cannons etc., because there are no chaos infantry sprues with them. Look no further than to out-of-the-blue meltabomb disappearance from the codex, to see that this has less to do with lore (i mean the CMS use meltabombs in Dark Imperum), design choices (I mean they had them since forever), and more with "well they don't have it on any of their kits..." The problem with this is of course that, there is no "undivided" CSM update on the horizon so I fear they will be stuck in this limbo for some time.

 

 

Of course there is also tabletop representation - which is limited by need for balance, distinctive feel of faction and design of the game. For example, you can't have endless variability in CSM because you don't want to break the game, and want to have a certain feel of the entire faction; the characters are supposed to be in the thick of the fighting so this means no heavy weapon-toting heroes like Lheorvine; no "middlemen" between Lord and Aspiring Champions (though now the Exalted Champion fills that role) etc.

Edited November 10, 2017 by RapatoR

[Sception]

Prior to the /most recent/ fluff where Imperial control is slipping in much of the galaxy, I really don't see how non-corrupted traitor marines would survive independently for long enough to justify existing as a faction in the game.  Traitor chapters who didn't turn to chaos and avoided persistent warp storms - pretty much the only refuge from imperial power before Abaddon's 13th crusade split the galaxy open - would soon be brought to heel by the Imperium, while those who did turn to chaos or take refuge in warp storms (which, let's be honest, is basically handing yourself over to the Gods whether you actively worship them or not) would usually be quickly cannibalized by more established chaos forces, and even if they managed to avoid that fate, those that survive wouldn't take long to be indistinguishable from other corrupt chaos marine forces regardless, because it's only by embracing that corruption that astartes stuck in warp tainted environments and cut off from their own faith in the emperor can survive.  Otherwise their strength is just sapped away fighting the very air they breathe.

 

Even if they had more recent technology when they broke away from the Imperium, without the Imperium's resources and Mechanicus ties they won't have the capacity to maintain those tools long term, and will pretty soon be down to basic marine equipment that they can maintain while more esoteric gear they can't maintain will end up traded to the Dark Mechanicus in exchange for more self sustaining daemonic weaponry and the specialists to keep such equipment more or less in line.

Edited November 10, 2017 by malisteen

[Carrack]

Prior to the /most recent/ fluff where Imperial control is slipping in much of the galaxy, I really don't see how non-corrupted traitor marines would survive independently for long enough to justify existing as a faction in the game. Traitor chapters who didn't turn to chaos and avoided persistent warp storms - pretty much the only refuge form imperial power before Abaddon's 13th crusade split the galaxy open - would soon be brought to heel by the Imperium, while those who did turn to chaos or take refuge in warp storms (which, let's be honest, is basically handing yourself over to the Gods whether you actively worship them or not) would usually be quickly cannibalized by more established chaos forces, and even if they managed to avoid that fate, those that survive wouldn't take long to be indistinguishable from other corrupt chaos marine forces regardless, because it's only by embracing that corruption that astartes suck in warp tainted environments and cut off from their own faith in the emperor can survive. Otherwise their strength is just sapped away fighting the very air they breathe.

 

Even if they had more recent technology when they broke away from the Imperium, without the Imperium's resources and Mechanicus ties they won't have the capacity to maintain those tools long term, and will pretty soon be down to basic marine equipment that they can maintain while more esoteric gear they can't maintain will end up traded to the dark mechanicus in exchange for more self sustaining daemonic weaponry and the specialists to keep such equipment more or less in line.

At least some of the loyalist chapters survived 800 years in the Eye of Terror fighting the Abussal Crusade without support from the Imperium. At the end of the crusade, they exited the warp, presumably in their ships, and if they could maintain their ships, it stands to reason they could maintain some plasma cannons.

[Panzer]

Prior to the /most recent/ fluff where Imperial control is slipping in much of the galaxy, I really don't see how non-corrupted traitor marines would survive independently for long enough to justify existing as a faction in the game.  Traitor chapters who didn't turn to chaos and avoided persistent warp storms - pretty much the only refuge from imperial power before Abaddon's 13th crusade split the galaxy open - would soon be brought to heel by the Imperium, while those who did turn to chaos or take refuge in warp storms (which, let's be honest, is basically handing yourself over to the Gods whether you actively worship them or not) would usually be quickly cannibalized by more established chaos forces, and even if they managed to avoid that fate, those that survive wouldn't take long to be indistinguishable from other corrupt chaos marine forces regardless, because it's only by embracing that corruption that astartes stuck in warp tainted environments and cut off from their own faith in the emperor can survive.  Otherwise their strength is just sapped away fighting the very air they breathe.

 

Even if they had more recent technology when they broke away from the Imperium, without the Imperium's resources and Mechanicus ties they won't have the capacity to maintain those tools long term, and will pretty soon be down to basic marine equipment that they can maintain while more esoteric gear they can't maintain will end up traded to the Dark Mechanicus in exchange for more self sustaining daemonic weaponry and the specialists to keep such equipment more or less in line.

Well the galaxy is a big place. There were some chapter who got declared renegade but didn't turn to chaos. Loyal or not, they were something inbetween. However yeah they were few and how exactly they could resupply etc. is questionable at best.

I guess it depends on how GW plans to continue the story.

If they split the imperium so there are many "neutral" places while the IoM is busy fighting against Chaos and other threads non-chaos Renegade Marines would become much more likely.

If they go further the "chaos influence grows everywhere in the galaxy" route then it'll be even less likely than before even.

 

 

 

 

At least some of the loyalist chapters survived 800 years in the Eye of Terror fighting the Abussal Crusade without support from the Imperium. At the end of the crusade, they exited the warp, presumably in their ships, and if they could maintain their ships, it stands to reason they could maintain some plasma cannons.

 

Well was it 800 years in realtime or 800 years inside the eye? Time works differently in the warp and for all we know it could've been just a few weeks before they exited the eye...just that they exited it 800 years after entering it in realtime.

[Sception]

Those extremely few survivors of the Abyssal Crusade (barely 1/6 chapters going into the Abyssal Crusade made it out untainted, and those that did suffered terrible attrition) were sustained by their faith in the Emperor, and in exchange the Emperor's active protection against the influence of the warp, which inoculated them against the corrosive and corrupting influence of chaos.  That is a real and fundamental layer of protection that renegade chapters simply do not enjoy.

 

Additionally, the assumption that maintained ships mean any technology could have been maintained does not necessarily follow.  Imperial fleet ships - particularly the critical engine, life support, and field generator systems - on which the success of entire campaigns and the control of entire systems might depend, are built to last in a way that experimental personnel weaponry simply isn't.

[Sception]

Well the galaxy is a big place. There were some chapter who got declared renegade but didn't turn to chaos. Loyal or not, they were something inbetween. However yeah they were few and how exactly they could resupply etc. is questionable at best.

I guess it depends on how GW plans to continue the story.

If they split the imperium so there are many "neutral" places while the IoM is busy fighting against Chaos and other threads non-chaos Renegade Marines would become much more likely.

If they go further the "chaos influence grows everywhere in the galaxy" route then it'll be even less likely than before even.

 

 

I didn't say these things never happened, but they don't happen in great enough numbers or with a great enough influence on the fate of the galaxy as a whole to justify an entire faction book dedicated just to them.  Instead, such renegade chapters should simply use the loyalist space marine book.  After all, if they're actively avoiding the corrupting influence of chaos, they aren't going to be allying with daemons or chaos legions anyway.

 

Now, going forward, GW could absolutely split off self-sustaining, non-chaos, but also non-imperial factions, especially in the Dark Imperium, but I'm not sure what the value of doing so would be, and i'm not sure that they'd need separate rule sets & model ranges to do so.

[Panzer]

 

Well the galaxy is a big place. There were some chapter who got declared renegade but didn't turn to chaos. Loyal or not, they were something inbetween. However yeah they were few and how exactly they could resupply etc. is questionable at best.

I guess it depends on how GW plans to continue the story.

If they split the imperium so there are many "neutral" places while the IoM is busy fighting against Chaos and other threads non-chaos Renegade Marines would become much more likely.

If they go further the "chaos influence grows everywhere in the galaxy" route then it'll be even less likely than before even.

 

 

I didn't say these things never happened, but they don't happen in great enough numbers or with a great enough influence on the fate of the galaxy as a whole to justify an entire faction book dedicated just to them.  Instead, such renegade chapters should simply use the loyalist space marine book.  After all, if they're actively avoiding the corrupting influence of chaos, they aren't going to be allying with daemons or chaos legions anyway.

 

Now, going forward, GW could absolutely split off self-sustaining, non-chaos, but also non-imperial factions, especially in the Dark Imperium, but I'm not sure what the value of doing so would be, and i'm not sure that they'd need separate rule sets & model ranges to do so.

 

I agree with both. I don't see people wanting a third independent Space Marine mainfaction...especially since one of them would only be second-hand space marines with less fancy stuff.

[Sception]

That's I guess my main thought on the matter, yeah.  Sure, there are isolated examples of non-chaos renegade marines in the 40k era, and likely to be more examples in the future, but they wouldn't be different enough from regular space marines to justify a separate faction book of their own, and even if they got one anyway it shouldn't be a chaos faction book regardless, because any such faction that did turn to chaos would pretty quickly become indistinguishable from other chaos legion forces, as with the Red Corsairs or Crimson Slaughter.

 

Rather than a separate chaos codex for renegade marines, I'd rather see a more clearly pyramidal structure to traitor legion warbands in general, with a handful of supernaturally empowered veterans at the top (ie, as HQs, Elites, squad leaders, and high priced specialists in Fast and Heavy), while the middle levels of the pyramid are made up of less empowered more recent recruits - whether chaos marines elevated from the ranks of cultists and chaos barbarians using stolen loyalist or rare untainted traitor geneseed or corrupted and cannibalized renegade chapters.  And then below those would be the aformentioned hordes of cultists and feral world chaos barbarians.

 

Basically three distinct tiers, with clear narrative, mechanical, and model range differences between them, but all within the same overall army.  And then make allowances within the army for people who want to have a focused list of just one of those tiers.  Like get a couple of cultist/barbarian/mutant units in fast and heavy for people who want to run a 'lost and the damned' style list that only has actual chaos marines as HQs and maybe an elite unit or two.  The lesser and greater chaos marine units are basically already there (chosen/cult units vs. basic chaos marines, warp talons vs. raptors, etc), all they need is a greater mechanical distinction between them (maybe make all the 'veteran' units 2 wounds? Maybe more-elite versions of bikes, havocs, and terminators?), plus the standard past rules for shifting an elite unit to troops depending on legion choice (cult units become troops for cult legions - which are getting their own books anyway - and chosen become troops for non-cult legions), for people who want to run pure heresy vet armies made up exclusively of expensive elite units, the chaos equivalent of a grey knight army.

[ChazSexington]

 

Prior to the /most recent/ fluff where Imperial control is slipping in much of the galaxy, I really don't see how non-corrupted traitor marines would survive independently for long enough to justify existing as a faction in the game.  Traitor chapters who didn't turn to chaos and avoided persistent warp storms - pretty much the only refuge from imperial power before Abaddon's 13th crusade split the galaxy open - would soon be brought to heel by the Imperium, while those who did turn to chaos or take refuge in warp storms (which, let's be honest, is basically handing yourself over to the Gods whether you actively worship them or not) would usually be quickly cannibalized by more established chaos forces, and even if they managed to avoid that fate, those that survive wouldn't take long to be indistinguishable from other corrupt chaos marine forces regardless, because it's only by embracing that corruption that astartes stuck in warp tainted environments and cut off from their own faith in the emperor can survive.  Otherwise their strength is just sapped away fighting the very air they breathe.

 

Even if they had more recent technology when they broke away from the Imperium, without the Imperium's resources and Mechanicus ties they won't have the capacity to maintain those tools long term, and will pretty soon be down to basic marine equipment that they can maintain while more esoteric gear they can't maintain will end up traded to the Dark Mechanicus in exchange for more self sustaining daemonic weaponry and the specialists to keep such equipment more or less in line.

Well the galaxy is a big place. There were some chapter who got declared renegade but didn't turn to chaos. Loyal or not, they were something inbetween. However yeah they were few and how exactly they could resupply etc. is questionable at best.

I guess it depends on how GW plans to continue the story.

If they split the imperium so there are many "neutral" places while the IoM is busy fighting against Chaos and other threads non-chaos Renegade Marines would become much more likely.

If they go further the "chaos influence grows everywhere in the galaxy" route then it'll be even less likely than before even.

 

 

 

 

At least some of the loyalist chapters survived 800 years in the Eye of Terror fighting the Abussal Crusade without support from the Imperium. At the end of the crusade, they exited the warp, presumably in their ships, and if they could maintain their ships, it stands to reason they could maintain some plasma cannons.

 

Well was it 800 years in realtime or 800 years inside the eye? Time works differently in the warp and for all we know it could've been just a few weeks before they exited the eye...just that they exited it 800 years after entering it in realtime.

 

 

I always saw the Warp as making time go really fast. While 10,000 years have elapsed in realspace, Talos has only fought for 100 years. That means time flows on average 100 times faster in the Warp (obviously give or take). 

 

Prior to the /most recent/ fluff where Imperial control is slipping in much of the galaxy, I really don't see how non-corrupted traitor marines would survive independently for long enough to justify existing as a faction in the game.  Traitor chapters who didn't turn to chaos and avoided persistent warp storms - pretty much the only refuge from imperial power before Abaddon's 13th crusade split the galaxy open - would soon be brought to heel by the Imperium, while those who did turn to chaos or take refuge in warp storms (which, let's be honest, is basically handing yourself over to the Gods whether you actively worship them or not) would usually be quickly cannibalized by more established chaos forces, and even if they managed to avoid that fate, those that survive wouldn't take long to be indistinguishable from other corrupt chaos marine forces regardless, because it's only by embracing that corruption that astartes stuck in warp tainted environments and cut off from their own faith in the emperor can survive.  Otherwise their strength is just sapped away fighting the very air they breathe.

 

Even if they had more recent technology when they broke away from the Imperium, without the Imperium's resources and Mechanicus ties they won't have the capacity to maintain those tools long term, and will pretty soon be down to basic marine equipment that they can maintain while more esoteric gear they can't maintain will end up traded to the Dark Mechanicus in exchange for more self sustaining daemonic weaponry and the specialists to keep such equipment more or less in line.

 

I don't think non-corrupted is what's meant, just a more logical approach arms and armour. It seems Khorne-damned odd that Indomitus TDA is more prevalent among Traitors granted than Cataphractii or Tartaros, granted the Indomitus was popularised amongst Loyalist forces during and post-Heresy. You also have the ADB piece on Abaddon kicking drop pods out of the Vengeful Spirit detailing most of the equipment. It stands to reason that more recent converts, from the brave defenders of Badab to the righteous Abyssal crusaders, would have access to Razorbacks, or multi-melta or grav-armed Devastators, but not autocannon-armed Havocs.

 

As an example: The Predator Annihilator (triple las) didn't exist until the 37th millennia, when the Space Wolves made a prototype. However, we have that option. Does the Dark Mechanicum have a hard on for lascannons, but not hand-held multi-meltas? What is the criteria to make their mecha-tendrils adamantium-hard? I understand some forms of technology are harder to maintain, but which pieces of equipment are harder to maintain seem utterly arbitrary. 

 

In my honest opinion, for all the attention lavished on the Death Guard and Thousand Sons recently, GW hasn't given non-Cult CSMs a boost for years. A lot of our equipment is legacy options with no good in-world excuse. E.g. if they ever bring out new Havocs, it stands to reason they would have multi-meltas. I think the DG got some rad grenades and phosphex, which isn't something new; this is Heresy-era equipment. 

 

Another issue is GW definitely want to differentiate CSMs from SMs. There is honestly no reason for CSMs not having drop pods (but somehow Dreadclaws and Kharybdis?), but to differentiate the two factions, CSMs have been restricted to Rhinos and Land Raiders (and let's not get started on Land Raider variants). Differentiating Cult Legions is much easier than the non-Cult Legions, so it stands to reason that these are getting more attention. Chaos Space Marines can't just be Space Marines +1 (+1 being Decepticons and Daemons), so something is needed. I honestly think a 0-1 limitation on certain pieces of equipment would be the way to differentiate newer and older CSMs. E.g. the Legions can take 0-1 units with Volkite equipment, while newer converts (Renegade Chapters) can take 0-1 Land Speeder squadrons. 

[Panzer]

 

 

 

At least some of the loyalist chapters survived 800 years in the Eye of Terror fighting the Abussal Crusade without support from the Imperium. At the end of the crusade, they exited the warp, presumably in their ships, and if they could maintain their ships, it stands to reason they could maintain some plasma cannons.

 

Well was it 800 years in realtime or 800 years inside the eye? Time works differently in the warp and for all we know it could've been just a few weeks before they exited the eye...just that they exited it 800 years after entering it in realtime.

 

 

I always saw the Warp as making time go really fast. While 10,000 years have elapsed in realspace, Talos has only fought for 100 years. That means time flows on average 100 times faster in the Warp (obviously give or take). 

 

That's always different and depends on the narrative. It could also go really really slow so that you spend thousands of years in the warp and are back the next day. Or time could flow backwards even so you come back before you started. It has no real logic to it since such kind of logic is part of the marterium. ^^

Edited November 10, 2017 by sfPanzer

[Sception]

There's fluff to basic marine equipment being specifically designed to be easily crafted, adapted and maintained.  Stuff like rhinos, land raiders, bolt weapons, autoweapons (autoguns, autocannons), las weapons (lasguns, lascannons), standard infantry armor (power armor, terminator armor) and the like.  IMO, more esoteric loyalist gear, like grav tech (whether weaponry or vehicular) and man-portable plasma cannons believably falls outside of that category of 'easily maintainable', and thus can be reasonably excluded from chaos books as things that, even if a chaos subfaction might have started with them or might get their hands on them, that they wouldn't be able to keep them running long term.

 

So I think the lack of some things - land speeders, grav weapons, plasma cannons, etc - are entirely justified, and would rather see explicitly chaos tools - self sustaining warp-integrated or daemonically possessed gear in particular - in their place.

 

Other things, I absolutely agree with.  I would rather see more cataphractii style terminator suits.  I have always thought and continue to think that exclusive loyalist access to drop pods is a travesty against both fluff and game design.  I'd rather see a chaos-specific counterpart to the razorback and landraider variants, but I wouldn't complain about just getting those, either.

[Leif Bearclaw]

Here's the thing though. Stuff like Volkites were rare in the late Great Crusade, faltering to barely present in the Scouring (there's a bit in HH6 where it needs a Terran Legion veteran to even identify Volkite blast marks, that's how rare they became even in early Imperium, most Marines had never even seen them used). And that's with the superior logistic support of Imperial Marines. Is it really reasonable to expect Traitors to maintain large, working stockpiles of complicated pre-Heresy equipment despite the constant attrition of the Heresy, Scouring and their day to day lives? I'd say no. Why is Indomitus the most common TDA mark for Chaos? Probably for the same reason as for loyalists, it's the easiest mark to make/maintain, and most of the GC/Heresy era gear is wrecked. As for the Dark Mech, why would they spend their time copying old deigns, when they could be working on that new funky Daemon fuelled death cannon that came to them in last week's hallucination fit? If the entire point of the Dark Mech is their mad creativity, unrestricted by reason or the dictates of Mars, why do people just want them to be the old Mechanicum, making the same basic toys?

 

If there's a place in the Chaos armoury for that kind of old tech, it's in a FW splatbook, alongside the other relics, like Sicarans, and with similar 'relic' rules and limitations, not built into the core codex (personally I actually think it makes less sense for Chaos to have so many old relics than the Imperium, but that's a slightly different argument).

 

It's also worth bearing in mind that most Renegade Chapters have been put through the wringer by conflict (of some form, be it as part of their 'start of darkness' of Imperial retribution) in the run up to 'going Chaos', so they probably don't have the weapon stockpiles some seem to think. Take the Red Corsairs for an example. I doubt they salvaged many Razorbacks or Land Speeders while fleeing Badab, under fire, with most their assets burning.

 

 

I'd rather see a chaos-specific counterpart to the razorback and landraider variants

So much this. Beyond the basics, Chaos should have as much unique gear as possible. Far better to have something new, warp powered and funky than another 'Imperial Vehicle, but with spikes!!!'.

[Sception]

I agree with you in general, but there are a few exceptions of gear that falls under that 'ubiquitous, fundamental, and designed to be easily manufactured and maintained' category on the level of bolters, rhinos, and power armor; stuff that chaos marines really should have access to but just arbitrarily doesn't.  The drop pod is the single biggest example.  The razorback could be argued, though again I'd rather see a chaos specific alternative in that particular case, a sort of nega-razorback designed specifically to be a rhino variant focused on assault the way the razorback is a rhino variant focused on fire support.  But if wishes were fishes, I'd have something to eat for dinner tonight, so... *shrug*.

[ChazSexington]

That's always different and depends on the narrative. It could also go really really slow so that you spend thousands of years in the warp and are back the next day. Or time could flow backwards even so you come back before you started. It has no real logic to it since such kind of logic is part of the marterium. ^^

 

 

 

 

Aye, I think Talos spoke to someone who had been alive for a similar amount of time. The tendency, over 10,000 years does however seem to be time is speeded up, massively. 

 

There's fluff to basic marine equipment being specifically designed to be easily crafted, adapted and maintained.  Stuff like rhinos, land raiders, bolt weapons, autoweapons (autoguns, autocannons), las weapons (lasguns, lascannons), standard infantry armor (power armor, terminator armor) and the like.  IMO, more esoteric loyalist gear, like grav tech (whether weaponry or vehicular) and man-portable plasma cannons believably falls outside of that category of 'easily maintainable', and thus can be reasonably excluded from chaos books as things that, even if a chaos subfaction might have started with them or might get their hands on them, that they wouldn't be able to keep them running long term.

 

So I think the lack of some things - land speeders, grav weapons, plasma cannons, etc - are entirely justified, and would rather see explicitly chaos tools - self sustaining warp-integrated or daemonically possessed gear in particular - in their place.

 

Other things, I absolutely agree with.  I would rather see more cataphractii style terminator suits.  I have always thought and continue to think that exclusive loyalist access to drop pods is a travesty against both fluff and game design.  I'd rather see a chaos-specific counterpart to the razorback and landraider variants, but I wouldn't complain about just getting those, either.

 

I don't think we disagree - I definitely agree the Legions shouldn't have access (or at least easy access) to things like Razorbacks, graviton weapons etc., but I think there's room in the faction for what we had before in terms of Loyalist gear, though it should obviously be kept limited.

 

Here's the thing though. Stuff like Volkites were rare in the late Great Crusade, faltering to barely present in the Scouring (there's a bit in HH6 where it needs a Terran Legion veteran to even identify Volkite blast marks, that's how rare they became even in early Imperium, most Marines had never even seen them used). And that's with the superior logistic support of Imperial Marines. Is it really reasonable to expect Traitors to maintain large, working stockpiles of complicated pre-Heresy equipment despite the constant attrition of the Heresy, Scouring and their day to day lives? I'd say no. Why is Indomitus the most common TDA mark for Chaos? Probably for the same reason as for loyalists, it's the easiest mark to make/maintain, and most of the GC/Heresy era gear is wrecked. As for the Dark Mech, why would they spend their time copying old deigns, when they could be working on that new funky Daemon fuelled death cannon that came to them in last week's hallucination fit? If the entire point of the Dark Mech is their mad creativity, unrestricted by reason or the dictates of Mars, why do people just want them to be the old Mechanicum, making the same basic toys?

 

If there's a place in the Chaos armoury for that kind of old tech, it's in a FW splatbook, alongside the other relics, like Sicarans, and with similar 'relic' rules and limitations, not built into the core codex (personally I actually think it makes less sense for Chaos to have so many old relics than the Imperium, but that's a slightly different argument).

 

It's also worth bearing in mind that most Renegade Chapters have been put through the wringer by conflict (of some form, be it as part of their 'start of darkness' of Imperial retribution) in the run up to 'going Chaos', so they probably don't have the weapon stockpiles some seem to think. Take the Red Corsairs for an example. I doubt they salvaged many Razorbacks or Land Speeders while fleeing Badab, under fire, with most their assets burning.

 

 

I'd rather see a chaos-specific counterpart to the razorback and landraider variants

So much this. Beyond the basics, Chaos should have as much unique gear as possible. Far better to have something new, warp powered and funky than another 'Imperial Vehicle, but with spikes!!!'.

 

I didn't know that particular snippet about Volkite, cheers

 

The point is still that a lot of equipment is lacking, though Indomitus has never been described as easier to maintain, and was rare among the Traitors. It makes sense the Red Corsairs and those of the Abyssal Crusade have them, but not the Traitor Legions. I think it's mostly an outdated model thing, as you can now see the DG use Cataphractii. 

 

I agree there should be more Dark Mechanicum-specific stuff, which is why I'd love them to bring back Kai guns too. However, what is the DarkMech keen on repairing? It makes zero sense; different marks of Predators can be repaired/made, but not Land Raiders. 

 

As far as Relics are concerned, the Imperium has gone through 10,000 years of war, while, as I noted earlier, much shorter periods of time have elapsed for the Traitors. Old gear should be much more common. As opposed to the game mechanics where there's hardly a model left come T5, this doesn't seem to be what happens in the lore.

 

Regarding Razorbacks and Land Speeders, you still have all the other Chapters that turned Traitor. I'm specifically thinking of the Abyssal Crusade here. Did they just jettison these things once they painted the eight-pointed star on their armour? The Knights of Blood? Relictors? It makes sense that some Warbands have a wider access to more recent equipment.