Chaos Space Marines "lost" equipment + why play CSM

[Sception]

Even once loyalist chapters who turn traitor, who might have had land speeders and grav guns to start, find themselves cut off from the imperial resources and expertise needed to maintain those things.  A few centuries in, and they just won't have them anymore due to attrition.  Honestly, though, they're unlikely to still have them even a few years or decades after turning to chaos because those things will be more valuable as bargaining chips to be cashed in for dark mechanicus technical support and safe docking than they will be as actual weapons, and if they try to hold onto those things instead of trading them in than some other larger, better established, better supported warband is going to come scavenging to trade that stuff to the dark mechanicus themselves.

 

Again, there's room for renegade marine chapters that still have some of that stuff, but they wouldn't be /chaos/ marines.  They wouldn't be a chaos faction.

[Leif Bearclaw]

 

The point is still that a lot of equipment is lacking, though Indomitus has never been described as easier to maintain, and was rare among the Traitors. It makes sense the Red Corsairs and those of the Abyssal Crusade have them, but not the Traitor Legions. I think it's mostly an outdated model thing, as you can now see the DG use Cataphractii. 

You're right, that was an inference on my part. But it seems like the best explanation for the prevalence of Indomitus TDA on both sides. That said, we may well see more diverse armour marks used in future kits, as other marks of TDA are now more prominent in the fluff.

 

 

I agree there should be more Dark Mechanicum-specific stuff, which is why I'd love them to bring back Kai guns too. However, what is the DarkMech keen on repairing? It makes zero sense; different marks of Predators can be repaired/made, but not Land Raiders.

Probably not all that much, because of the madness thing. Which is why the basic gear remains so prevalent, it can be maintained 'in house', and a lot of Daemon gear seems to be self maintaining once built (because Daemon). I see the Dark Mech as more likely to replace than repair, because they're always looking for a testbed for the latest crazy idea. Even if you did get one to accept the job, I see it being a bit more like the Mekz and Dokz from Gorkamorka than the Ad Mech. The Magos may fix your armour, or he may have made a sentient armour suit with a bound Daemon, or he may have attached a new design warpflame projector to the gauntlet, but ignored the damaged backpack. That sort of thing.

 

 

As far as Relics are concerned, the Imperium has gone through 10,000 years of war, while, as I noted earlier, much shorter periods of time have elapsed for the Traitors. Old gear should be much more common. As opposed to the game mechanics where there's hardly a model left come T5, this doesn't seem to be what happens in the lore.

However, it seems reasonable to expect attrition to be higher for Chaos warbands. Most of the loyalist relics are rarely brought out, and maintained in sacred stasis vaults. Whereas a Chaos Warband with a Sicaran/Fellblade/whatever is more likely to keep it in service for longer periods, as they need every advantage they can get in the hellscape of war that's their day to day lives. Hence higher attrition rates. Note, I'm not saying that Chaos shouldn't have the FW relics, but I personally don't think there much reason to suppose they have more than the Imperials.

 

 

Regarding Razorbacks and Land Speeders, you still have all the other Chapters that turned Traitor. I'm specifically thinking of the Abyssal Crusade here. Did they just jettison these things once they painted the eight-pointed star on their armour?

I dunno, it seems perfectly sensible that the Abyssal Crusade Chapters took some hefty attrition in the process of becoming Chaos Marines (EoT, after all, is not an easy place to be), with the greatest loss hitting more specialised/high tech gear. Granted, it's easier to explain a lack of Land Speeders than Razorbacks, but a few weird quirks like that in the name of faction differentiation seem unavoidable. Just like there's no real reason why Wolves have a different set of flyers to regular SMs and can't use Ironclad Dreads, grav weaponry or Centurion suits.

 

 

The Knights of Blood? Relictors? It makes sense that some Warbands have a wider access to more recent equipment.

Aren't they both 'renegades' but are listed in the appropriate loyalist codex, and hence do actually have all the recent gear?

 

 

I agree with you in general, but there are a few exceptions of gear that falls under that 'ubiquitous, fundamental, and designed to be easily manufactured and maintained' category on the level of bolters, rhinos, and power armor; stuff that chaos marines really should have access to but just arbitrarily doesn't.  The drop pod is the single biggest example. 

True, though there a some arguments in favour of CSMs not using such disposable items thanks to difficulties with recovery/replacement (same as the Blackshields in HH), but that doesn't always work (though it would be a good excuse for plastic Dreadclaw when non-Cult CSMs finally get some releases). I've just always considered that one of those aforementioned crunch quirks, like the gear discrepancies between loyalist Marines with separate dexes.

[Carrack]

Those extremely few survivors of the Abyssal Crusade (barely 1/6 chapters going into the Abyssal Crusade made it out untainted, and those that did suffered terrible attrition) were sustained by their faith in the Emperor, and in exchange the Emperor's active protection against the influence of the warp, which inoculated them against the corrosive and corrupting influence of chaos. That is a real and fundamental layer of protection that renegade chapters simply do not enjoy.

 

Additionally, the assumption that maintained ships mean any technology could have been maintained does not necessarily follow. Imperial fleet ships - particularly the critical engine, life support, and field generator systems - on which the success of entire campaigns and the control of entire systems might depend, are built to last in a way that experimental personnel weaponry simply isn't.

I would say that the ability to maintain a warp capable craft, or in some cases, a fleet of warp capable craft, speaks of a capability far exceeding that necessary to maintain plasma cannons. The imperial guard maintain plasma cannons, it's not that selective of a skill set. Not to say it doesn't happen, but I've also never heard of a loyalist chapter having to routinely send their plasma cannons and land speeders outside their chapter for maintenance, I don't see why they would need to start doing that the minute they turned away from the False Emperor. My abyssal crusade reference wasn't just about surviving in the Eye for long periods of time, but also about surviving long periods of time bereft of outside support from the Imperium, something that happens fairly regularly.

[Trevak Dal]

From your initial post, it sounds like you shouldn't play. I was in your shoes, I wish I hadn't gotten into chaos and had just made a Dark Angels successor/Crimson Fists army.

[Plaguecaster]

 

Those extremely few survivors of the Abyssal Crusade (barely 1/6 chapters going into the Abyssal Crusade made it out untainted, and those that did suffered terrible attrition) were sustained by their faith in the Emperor, and in exchange the Emperor's active protection against the influence of the warp, which inoculated them against the corrosive and corrupting influence of chaos. That is a real and fundamental layer of protection that renegade chapters simply do not enjoy.

 

Additionally, the assumption that maintained ships mean any technology could have been maintained does not necessarily follow. Imperial fleet ships - particularly the critical engine, life support, and field generator systems - on which the success of entire campaigns and the control of entire systems might depend, are built to last in a way that experimental personnel weaponry simply isn't.

I would say that the ability to maintain a warp capable craft, or in some cases, a fleet of warp capable craft, speaks of a capability far exceeding that necessary to maintain plasma cannons. The imperial guard maintain plasma cannons, it's not that selective of a skill set. Not to say it doesn't happen, but I've also never heard of a loyalist chapter having to routinely send their plasma cannons and land speeders outside their chapter for maintenance, I don't see why they would need to start doing that the minute they turned away from the False Emperor. My abyssal crusade reference wasn't just about surviving in the Eye for long periods of time, but also about surviving long periods of time bereft of outside support from the Imperium, something that happens fairly regularly.

However the thing about the Abyssal crusade was that only those truly loyal to the Imperium stayed untainted/ sane, the same thing would happen to any chapter throwing off the Imperiums rule they would either be completly destroyed or forced to embrace chaos just to survive.

 

A few editions ago I shared the same view though now it's been quite a few editions with chaos being heavily defined as what it is now there is just no middle ground for a Renegades concept which is neither loyalist nor chaos but has the best gear . To be fair yes if you don't like chaos as a whole then don't play it and frankly I don't care as they are called Chaos marines for a reason, moaning about how loyalist get fancy gear and we don't will never change anything, FW can help a little bit but certain things will always be. Yes certain things like not having squad based plasma cannons or land raider variants is a bit stupid though it's more GW's fault for acknowledging it (Forgeworld as well for not coming up with a chaos variant by now) however loyalist stuff like Razorbacks etc we need more equilvants not just lazy copies from the loyalists. Look at DG how they got a complete redo as a new faction completly seperate form CSM all chaos needs is something like that to happen with a complete codex redo instead of the simple revamp copy the current codex is

 

 

Besides we al know what would happen if chaos did get Razorbacks you would just see entire chaos armies of nothing but razorback spam plus all the best bits from chaos

[RapatoR]

I just want to reiterate that I don't think non-chaos renegade marines should have a codex. However I think there should be should be something for less "chaotic" marines in style of GS codex where you would be able to take loyalist stuff for every X units you have.

 

Also I am not making the case CSM should be without chaos. I just think there is MUCH more to chaos marines than chaos. I pointed to some cases, but I will add despoiler squads to that pile (which dissapeared from the newest codex, IMO because of lack of suitable models).

[Irbis]

Predators without sponsons should have a troop capacity. Apart from turret shape what is the difference between a twin Las Razorback and a Las Pred?

 

Oh, let's see, much heavier frontal armour, stronger, bigger engine so it can keep up, reinforced roof to carry the weight of turret, supporting mechanisms inside for turret gunner and ammo feed, and most critically, no way to actually easily disembark (rear ramp would be blocked by turret/engine stuff, side ones are part of reinforced armour and most likely solid plate). Which means even if predator could transport 2-3 dudes they couldn't get out so it would be better to use the space for extra ammo and fuel as bigger engine would inevitably consume more of it.

 

Yup, no differences at all

 

In comparison, Razorback has light, automated turret that can be fitted on existing roof, ammo supply that can be stored right under turret allowing people to sit underneath, still has side ramps, and since the operator does everything remotely instead of sitting in said turret, he can easily be tucked away in corner, wasting minimal space. I'd even say Razorback should be able to carry more than 6 marines.

 

If anything, CSM are actually larger beneficent of hand-waving away internal space in transports, because with array of guns CSM Rhinos can carry on top they should have realistically max 8 transport capacity to carry ammunition for all the launchers, combi-bolter-flamers, etc, etc.

 

At least some of the loyalist chapters survived 800 years in the Eye of Terror fighting the Abussal Crusade without support from the Imperium. At the end of the crusade, they exited the warp, presumably in their ships, and if they could maintain their ships, it stands to reason they could maintain some plasma cannons.

How does that follow?

 

Look at Iraq between 1991-2002. Arms embargo meant they kept this more rugged stuff running, things like navy destroyers, tanks, or AK-47, but the once vast Iraqi air force and rocket artillery had been reduced to a bunch of rusted out shells. In just 20 years. These Scuds that terrorized everyone in '91? Rusty pipes filled with mechanisms that might explode upon use, so no one tried. For all we know, Predators are T-72, bolters are AK-47, hand portable plasma cannons are Scuds. It's not like they are unreliable and prone to malfunctions even when brand new, eh? Oh, wait, they actually are

 

The drop pod is the single biggest example.

 

How? After every drop, they are carefully gathered, cleaned, refurbished, paying particular attention to engine (since that is one part you don't want failing). How would a chaos warband being driven away from attacked world have time to collect theirs? Chaos pods would need to be either entirely disposable (something they have little capability of producing) or entirely reusable (and CSM already have these).

 

The razorback could be argued, though again I'd rather see a chaos specific alternative in that particular case, a sort of nega-razorback designed specifically to be a rhino variant focused on assault the way the razorback is a rhino variant focused on fire support.

 

Hmm, let's imagine such a thing. Rhino-like transport capacity, with some short ranged, fire support gun, offering good firepower. Let's say it's mutiple-barreled rocket launcher, something to create havoc... Oh wait

[Carrack]

Some chaos warbands are able to maintain and field titans, something the Imperium does with great difficulty, not just because of their size and power, but because of the complexity of barely remembered technology. The use of loyalist only weapons like handheld plasma cannons and multimeltas, razorbacks, and land speeders is far more widespread than that of titans, yet in spite of our faction's ability to field the more complex and resource intensive titans, we are suppose to believe that they can't maintain the far more common "loyalist only" marine weapons.

 

Besides, most "loyalist only" weapons aren't described as being particularly complex or special. Razorbacks don't have to be sent to Mars for an oil change, and multimeltas are common enough to be fitted to imperial guard vehicles as secondary weapons. The loyalists certainly don't have any great difficulty maintaining them, even fleet based chapters, in contrast with equipment like TDA, which is given heirloom status and specifically described as near irreplaceable, which chaos marines are still able to field.

[Cryptix]

Mate half the titans that are made in the Ete of Chaos fall apart when they leave because the DM forgot to compensate for the weird in the warp.

[Slave to Darkness]

 

Predators without sponsons should have a troop capacity. Apart from turret shape what is the difference between a twin Las Razorback and a Las Pred?

 

Oh, let's see, much heavier frontal armour, stronger, bigger engine so it can keep up, reinforced roof to carry the weight of turret, supporting mechanisms inside for turret gunner and ammo feed, and most critically, no way to actually easily disembark (rear ramp would be blocked by turret/engine stuff, side ones are part of reinforced armour and most likely solid plate). Which means even if predator could transport 2-3 dudes they couldn't get out so it would be better to use the space for extra ammo and fuel as bigger engine would inevitably consume more of it.

 

Yup, no differences at all

 

 

 

I was on about a Pred without sponsons. So the side doors and rear ramp would be useable, and they used to be able to transport troops in 1st ed soooo 

[Azekai]

Mate half the titans that are made in the Ete of Chaos fall apart when they leave because the DM forgot to compensate for the weird in the warp.

That sounds... really stupid. Got a source for that? Dark Mechanicus machines like Xana's hellblades or the Silent Forge's Decimator work just fine in both the realms of the Empyrean and on more physical worlds.

 

In any case, I have never seen an example of an official half-daemon titan. There are daemon-infused knight-like things (subjugators are a good example), but I have seen nothing that suggests that even these machines fail when brought outside of the warp.

Edited November 12, 2017 by Azekai

[Plaguecaster]

Unlike Loyalist vehicles or mechanicus stuff Daemon possessed vehicles require barely any maintenance work done on them apart from chaining them up and probably removing their ranged weapons though that's more of a safety precaution plus most daemon engines are used as sucidal distractions thrown at the enemy designed to soak up their fire usuallybeing destroyed . The majority of Chaos Titans usually have their crews merged with their metal frames so they are more possessed daemon engines than actual Titans crewed by a crew like their loyalist counterparts.

 

It's always been part of the fluff that chapters cut off from the Imperium struggle to maintain their armouries forced to live out pirate lifestyle forced to constantly raid the Imperium just to survive with only the Legions able sustain themselves and even then most of their chapter armouries have become destroyed over time unable to be repaired or possessed by daemons as a crew was no longer needed. Yes some chapters can easily maintain their wargear but that requires specialised techmarines trained to do so your average battle brother can't, when a chapter goes renegade most techmarines are pretty loyal to mars/ the Omnissiahso won't turn quite easily (ok there may be a few but very rarely).

 

Entire chapters normally don't completly turn Traitor as well even if it does happen they never remain unscathed since as soon as they turn they immediately become a enemy of the Imperium being set upon by the various branches of the Imperium. They normally can't stay on their home world otherwise they can be easily destroyed by the combined might of the Imperium as it becomes harder to recruit with any drawn out engagement draining the chapters resources which are a lot harder to replace. When you actually start looking more indepth to the fluff of a renegade chapter it becomes much easier to realise renegade chapters are not the same as loyalist chapters so are no where near as close to them for maintaining their supplies as even normal marines can struggle if they suffer major casualties.

Edited November 12, 2017 by Plaguecaster

[Sception]

Remember also that techmarines are generally dedicated/brainwashed cultists of Mars.  Just because some or all of the regular soldiers of a chapter or legion were willing to turn against the emperor, doesn't mean their techmarines were willing to turn against mars.  Most chaos legions & chapters had to kill many if not all of their own techmarines to prevent them from sabotaging and destroying their armories, in the same way that most had to kill their own chaplains.  And those that don't kill their own tech specialists will have a hard time keeping them when the Dark Mechanicus offers considerably more attractive employment options.

[Carrack]

Unlike Loyalist vehicles or mechanicus stuff Daemon possessed vehicles require barely any maintenance work done on them apart from chaining them up and probably removing their ranged weapons though that's more of a safety precaution plus most daemon engines are used as sucidal distractions thrown at the enemy designed to soak up their fire usuallybeing destroyed . The majority of Chaos Titans usually have their crews merged with their metal frames so they are more possessed daemon engines than actual Titans crewed by a crew like their loyalist counterparts.

 

It's always been part of the fluff that chapters cut off from the Imperium struggle to maintain their armouries forced to live out pirate lifestyle forced to constantly raid the Imperium just to survive with only the Legions able sustain themselves and even then most of their chapter armouries have become destroyed over time unable to be repaired or possessed by daemons as a crew was no longer needed. Yes some chapters can easily maintain their wargear but that requires specialised techmarines trained to do so your average battle brother can't, when a chapter goes renegade most techmarines are pretty loyal to mars/ the Omnissiahso won't turn quite easily (ok there may be a few but very rarely).

 

Entire chapters normally don't completly turn Traitor as well even if it does happen they never remain unscathed since as soon as they turn they immediately become a enemy of the Imperium being set upon by the various branches of the Imperium. They normally can't stay on their home world otherwise they can be easily destroyed by the combined might of the Imperium as it becomes harder to recruit with any drawn out engagement draining the chapters resources which are a lot harder to replace. When you actually start looking more indepth to the fluff of a renegade chapter it becomes much easier to realise renegade chapters are not the same as loyalist chapters so are no where near as close to them for maintaining their supplies as even normal marines can struggle if they suffer major casualties.

So chaos marines can maintain predators, rhinos, and even titans through the use of daemons, but not razorbacks, whirlwinds, and land speeders? Are daemons incapable of being bound to drop pods, but work great with vindicators? How come daemon possession only works on phobos pattern land raiders?

 

There is certainly plenty of background on chaos warbands that are raiding and scrounging just to survive. There is also examples of chaos warbands conquering worlds and even groups of systems. There needs to be for our faction to be considered the Arch-Enemy of Mankind.

[ChazSexington]

 

 

The point is still that a lot of equipment is lacking, though Indomitus has never been described as easier to maintain, and was rare among the Traitors. It makes sense the Red Corsairs and those of the Abyssal Crusade have them, but not the Traitor Legions. I think it's mostly an outdated model thing, as you can now see the DG use Cataphractii. 

You're right, that was an inference on my part. But it seems like the best explanation for the prevalence of Indomitus TDA on both sides. That said, we may well see more diverse armour marks used in future kits, as other marks of TDA are now more prominent in the fluff.

 

 

I agree there should be more Dark Mechanicum-specific stuff, which is why I'd love them to bring back Kai guns too. However, what is the DarkMech keen on repairing? It makes zero sense; different marks of Predators can be repaired/made, but not Land Raiders.

Probably not all that much, because of the madness thing. Which is why the basic gear remains so prevalent, it can be maintained 'in house', and a lot of Daemon gear seems to be self maintaining once built (because Daemon). I see the Dark Mech as more likely to replace than repair, because they're always looking for a testbed for the latest crazy idea. Even if you did get one to accept the job, I see it being a bit more like the Mekz and Dokz from Gorkamorka than the Ad Mech. The Magos may fix your armour, or he may have made a sentient armour suit with a bound Daemon, or he may have attached a new design warpflame projector to the gauntlet, but ignored the damaged backpack. That sort of thing.

 

 

As far as Relics are concerned, the Imperium has gone through 10,000 years of war, while, as I noted earlier, much shorter periods of time have elapsed for the Traitors. Old gear should be much more common. As opposed to the game mechanics where there's hardly a model left come T5, this doesn't seem to be what happens in the lore.

However, it seems reasonable to expect attrition to be higher for Chaos warbands. Most of the loyalist relics are rarely brought out, and maintained in sacred stasis vaults. Whereas a Chaos Warband with a Sicaran/Fellblade/whatever is more likely to keep it in service for longer periods, as they need every advantage they can get in the hellscape of war that's their day to day lives. Hence higher attrition rates. Note, I'm not saying that Chaos shouldn't have the FW relics, but I personally don't think there much reason to suppose they have more than the Imperials.

 

 

Regarding Razorbacks and Land Speeders, you still have all the other Chapters that turned Traitor. I'm specifically thinking of the Abyssal Crusade here. Did they just jettison these things once they painted the eight-pointed star on their armour?

I dunno, it seems perfectly sensible that the Abyssal Crusade Chapters took some hefty attrition in the process of becoming Chaos Marines (EoT, after all, is not an easy place to be), with the greatest loss hitting more specialised/high tech gear. Granted, it's easier to explain a lack of Land Speeders than Razorbacks, but a few weird quirks like that in the name of faction differentiation seem unavoidable. Just like there's no real reason why Wolves have a different set of flyers to regular SMs and can't use Ironclad Dreads, grav weaponry or Centurion suits.

 

 

The Knights of Blood? Relictors? It makes sense that some Warbands have a wider access to more recent equipment.

Aren't they both 'renegades' but are listed in the appropriate loyalist codex, and hence do actually have all the recent gear?

 

 

I agree with you in general, but there are a few exceptions of gear that falls under that 'ubiquitous, fundamental, and designed to be easily manufactured and maintained' category on the level of bolters, rhinos, and power armor; stuff that chaos marines really should have access to but just arbitrarily doesn't.  The drop pod is the single biggest example. 

True, though there a some arguments in favour of CSMs not using such disposable items thanks to difficulties with recovery/replacement (same as the Blackshields in HH), but that doesn't always work (though it would be a good excuse for plastic Dreadclaw when non-Cult CSMs finally get some releases). I've just always considered that one of those aforementioned crunch quirks, like the gear discrepancies between loyalist Marines with separate dexes.

 

 

Just wanna say cheers for the good tone - I re-read mine and it came across sourer than I intended :)

 

Honestly, I think most of the differences boil down to

• a game design view point of trying to separate the factions
• an ever-changing view of what the CSMs should be (a lack of consistent direction)
• a certain amount of just old kits
• fluff 

E.g. I get not giving us drop pods from a game design point of view, so we play differently from the Loyalists. From a fluff point of view, it doesn't make sense. CSMs have gone through several iterations; are we mostly Legions, that operate similarly to how they did previously (3.5rd, 8th)? Or are all the CSM Warbands/Legions all fairly similar (and use more modern equipment) due to the sheer amount of time elapsed (5-7th)? A lot of our kits are just kinda old; our Termie kit is from before FW began with their reinvention of the HH, so I'm not too fussed about the lack of specifically CSM Cataphractii and Tartatos; DG have Cataphractii and the Thousand Sons have Tartaros ((though it's dumb-dumb the rest of us don't even have the rules so we could convert us some new Termies). There are some legit fluff reasons for the omission of certain pieces of equipment, notably Razorbacks, grav-tech etc.

 

With regards to the relics, there's definitely a case for both. While 1st/2nd and maybe 3rd founding Chapters should have more of them, it's definitely easier for the Traitors to maintain what they have rather than build entirely new tanks. Turning stuff over to the Dark Mechanicum is, as you say, a bit of a gamble. Getting teeth where the entry hatch used to be isn't necessarily an end user improvement. However, if the repairs aren't functional, the CSMs will steer clear. However, it is clear they are repairing most things, but not certain pieces of equipment for no decent fluff reason (my thoughts are in the previous paragraph as to the actual reasons). I think there should be the option to either take modern or old equipment, but not both. 

 

Space Wolves not using grav etc. makes sense; it's just not in their armoury, same as the CSMs' armoury (in general). Space Woofs aren't Codex-adherent, so they are bound to be quite different. They do things their way, and that means without grav weaponry. Are Razorbacks way harder to maintain than Land Raiders, Rhinos, Predators etc., in the case of the Abyssal Crusade?

 

The Knights of Blood and Relictors are both Excommunicate Traitoris. The Relictors are chilling in the Eye of Terror. Pretty much the same thing, mind. 

 

But honestly, A-DB summed it up pretty well

 

 

 

"Dude, Horus just croaked. What now?"

Abaddon re-tied his topknot. He totally had an idea. "I totally have an idea," he said. The Traitor Legions looked on expectantly. "Here's what we do. We run away."

Many helmed heads nodded. This seemed a wise course of action.

"Good idea," said Erebus.

'Hush." Abaddon frowned at the interruption. "But I think we should leave behind our jetbikes, Dreadclaws, Whirlwinds, Landspeeders - pretty much all anti-grav technology, really - as well as our bikes, attack bikes, and pretty much anything else we've used so far."

Fewer helms nodded this time. "Dude," said Lucius the Eternal, "we might need all that stuff. Some of that stuff is rad."

"Nah, I've made up my mind. Let's just go."

"But..."

"Let's. Just. Go." Abaddon waved the Talon of Horus. Its scythe-blade fingers made clickety-click sounds.

"Okay, let's just go," agreed Lucius.

Khârn wasn't so easily placated. "What about Cyclone Launchers? Because I saw those in Horus Heresy: Collected Visions, so we must be using th--"

"I feel like I'm talking to myself, here." Abaddon pointed a claw at the World Eater. It poked Khârn in the eye.

"Ow, Jesus, man. Okay, okay. We'll go."

"Yeah, that's what I thought."

Abaddon pimp-walked from the room, strutting like he owned the place.

"Hey, what about this conversion beamer?" asked Typhus. "Couldn't we use these in Rogue Trader? These are awesome. They go, like, FWOOOOOSH."

"Leave it!" Abaddon's voice called from the other room. Typhus put it down, grumbling.

Fabius Bile sort of shrugged. "So, uh, can I come with you guys? Because I was checking the passenger lists, and none of the Legions are taking their Apothecaries. I mean... don't you need us?"

Lucius patted his brother on the shoulder. "It's okay, man. We'll allude to the Apothecaries in the background text. I mean, you won't get to ever do anything, but you'll sort of be there in the fluff, y'know? A bit? Maybe?"

"Balls to this. I'm leaving the Legion. I'll make my own rules."

Khârn snorted. "Your rules will be lame for competitive play. Just watch. And people will call you Fabulous Bill."

The Traitors walked from the chamber, out to the landing pad. It was deserted.

"Uh, Abbs?"

Abaddon turned to Ahriman. "S'up?"

"Um." The Thousand Son gestured to the empty landing pad. "Where are all our gunships?"

Abaddon ignored him. "Weren't you red a minute ago?"

"We're blue now. It's... it's this whole... thing. Look, seriously, where are our Thunderhawks?"

"Oh, right. Them." Abaddon toyed with his topknot, swishing it back and forth, like a kitten with a fluffy toy. "We won't need those. We can run everywhere and stuff. Or push Rhinos out of hangers and ride them through the atmosphere. It'll be cool."

The Traitors shared a glance. This wasn't going well. Abaddon noticed their hesitation, and sought to calm them. "Relaaaaax. I'll invent new stuff. Like... spider robots with daemons in, and they have claws and stuff. They'll defile things. Maybe they can be called Defilotrons. It'll be sweet. And they'll have a gun on their chests, and tiny little heads. What? Why are you looking at me like that? You just wait. We'll rock this place all to hell.

[Cryptix]

 

Mate half the titans that are made in the Ete of Chaos fall apart when they leave because the DM forgot to compensate for the weird in the warp.

That sounds... really stupid. Got a source for that? Dark Mechanicus machines like Xana's hellblades or the Silent Forge's Decimator work just fine in both the realms of the Empyrean and on more physical worlds.

 

In any case, I have never seen an example of an official half-daemon titan. There are daemon-infused knight-like things (subjugators are a good example), but I have seen nothing that suggests that even these machines fail when brought outside of the warp.

 

It was from that one Grey Knight novel where they fought the intelligent Daemon-titan - I think its name was Castigator?

[Galron]

Fluffwise, are there any novels of loyalist space marines using Death Storm drop pods? I know Iron Warriors in the book Storm of Iron use them when they assault the spaceport and many stories, more than (in the books I personally have read) have chaos marines using drop pods and storm birds and thunderhawks.

 

Also remember, only rarely do chapters just wake up in the morning and decide "Hey lets be chaos today!" Usually it is a long slow gradual process. The novels that have this happen tend to do it quickly because of "story" but there are likely more than a few chapters who still think they are the good guys defending the Imperium against chaos when its really the other way around. If the chapters do suddenly swap sides, likely there is a supernatural force causing it and there isn't a reason for the tech marines not to swap over too. They are standard marines afterall who just happened to score high on the mechanical section of the ASVAB and got sent to train for a few years.

[Plaguecaster]

^^^^^

Actually your wrong there though unlike normal marines techmarines are inducted into the machine cult of mars read any fluff involving tech marines they are always aloof and mysterious figures steeped in superstitious awe by their brothers sometime completly seperate entities within the chapter . They are marines of dual loyalties, pledged by blood to their Chapter, but bound in mind and spirit to the mysteries of the Cult Mechanicus' Omnissiah they are probably the least likely out of a whole chapter who would actually turn Traitor. Plus it's more than a few years they are sent away for about 30 or so actually

 

Unfortunately at the end of the day GW decided there had to be some diffences in the gear available to Loyalist and Chaos marines no matter how hard you justify the fluff for it (even though some of the examples aren't completly true) it won't change anytime soon unless CSM get a complete revamp.

Edited November 13, 2017 by Plaguecaster

[Bat33.1]

We do get spikes, oh and tentacles, the corpse god followers don't get those. They don't do anything apart from make our dudes look funky and make them harder to paint because we've got bits and bobs stuck on all over the place. Plus we can have guys with their guts hanging around their ankles with cute little fat critters for company. So stick that in your corpse throne furnace Loyalists types our dudes have style for miles ;)

 

The spikes do cause mortal wounds during the movement phase to the unwary - health and safety warning here - be safe watch out for spikes.

Edited November 14, 2017 by PJ1933

[Closet Skeleton]

 

I don't think non-corrupted is what's meant, just a more logical approach arms and armour. It seems Khorne-damned odd that Indomitus TDA is more prevalent among Traitors granted than Cataphractii or Tartaros, granted the Indomitus was popularised amongst Loyalist forces during and post-Heresy.

 

 

No, what's stupid and illogical is that Tartaros is just outright Indomitus+, thus breaking the old explanation that the traitor legions had better equipment during the Heresy because Horus prioritized his pals when the late crusade refits were going around. We should have got a heresy where the loyalists are cursing that their clumsy cataphracti suits are too clumsy to compete with the Indomitus armoured traitors but in the actual rules cataphracti are just outright better.

 

Its the heresy stuff that contradicts 40k Chaos not the other way round, taking in itself the Chaos fluff is perfectly consistent.

 

The Dark Mechanicum have no reason to copy post-heresy Imperial tech, them going off in their own direction with daemon engines is the logical direction.

[Panzer]

Yeah that's just classic Forgeworld tho. Their units always need to be better or else nobody would buy them.

[Laughingman]

I got the impression from the book Black legion that the industrial capacity of the eye of terror was minimal in the centuries after the Horus Heresy. Thus specialized weapons and vehicles  that required large logistical footprints and frequent maintenance  were mothballed for easier to acquire and maintain ones. 

So its not that they don't have plasma cannons, grav, Multi-Meltas, etc they lack x,y,z power regulators, bolts, coils, etc, to keep the weapon functioning long term  without blowing off the users hands.