Blocking the Alpha strike

[Iron_Within]

So, I'm in a conundrum. Every game I've lost in 40k so far has been a result of the Alpha strike of my opponents. Imperial Guard have a stupidly powerful Alpha Strike, I've found if they go first I lose consistently. AdMech have a brutal Alpha with overlapping abilities with Robots double tapping with Cawl back up. How do we stop these Turn 1 Shooting onslaughts? Line of sight blocking terrain helps, but I have found that even with that we are BLAMMED off the board on Turn 1.

 

So. Advice. What can we do to stop the shooting Alpha Strike?*

 

*Please don't limit responses to one Legion, there are 7 Legions in the Codex please give responses for more than just Alpha Legion :P

[Panzer]

Only three ways to "prevent" an Alpha strike really.

1. Deploy out of LoS

2. Put your important things in reserve

3. Have the better Alpha strike and get first turn

 

40k was for the most time and probably will remain a shooting based game with ranges that cover most of the board so alpha strikes will always be one of the biggest deciding factors of how a game goes.

[Azekai]

I sort of hate how decisive first turn is in 40k. It makes a mockery of battlefield tactics if the most impactful decision you can make is to bring a lot of big guns to a coin toss and hope for the best.

You touched on dense terrain, which is not a bad solution. Tall buildings, thick woods, you name it. Whatever keeps the game from devolving into parking lots shooting at each other is good.

Alternatively, you could consider missions where not everything begins on the tabletop, but straggles on over the course of the game. Nightfighting is also one of these 'scenario rules' that limits first turn damage.

Finally, you could consider playing at smaller point values. I like doing this myself; I rarely play above 1500, and often play with less. Less points means fewer long range guns, and the likelihood of a key unit getting wiped off the face of the earth falls as the points value drops. Sure, three lascannons might kill something important, but that is less likely than 12 or more killing something.

[Iron_Within]

I'm thinking about terminator, warp talons and raptors as well and deep strike attacks that avoid the enemy alpha strike that other units lack. They're not nearly as efficient a other units but they can deep strike avoids being hit.

[Panzer]

I'm thinking about terminator, warp talons and raptors as well and deep strike attacks that avoid the enemy alpha strike that other units lack. They're not nearly as efficient a other units but they can deep strike avoids being hit.

If you do that, do it for their shooting tho. Charging out of reserves is very unlikely (28% chance to pull it off, about 40-45% with re-rolls).

Otherwise you'll be just a sitting duck waiting for the alpha strike a turn later.

[Prot]

I just have to ask if you’re playing with proper terrain.

 

I ask this because I saw your previous post claiming you would never play against Cawl again and found him and Admech fairly broken.

 

When I play my Admech I struggle against a few armies. But a biggie is the terrain AND the scenario. We mostly play Maelstrom and tournament type scenarios like ITC which force you to move, and engage or you lose.

 

ITC in fact has a bottom level , no windows rule across their tables. While I don’t subscribe to this level of table manipulation, it does emphasize how silly Alpha shooting can be without certain controls put in place.

 

A rule I do use that ITC practices is a large , tall terrain piece in the center of the table. I don’t allow long easy, sit back and shoot tables when I set them up ( I set up a LOT of tables, every week).

 

The terrain and scenario get you halfway to having a chance of winning against those opponents. The rest is up to you.

 

I love my Chaos because it is completely reactive. My AdMech? Not so much. I have to develop certain lanes, and avoid chaff..if I over commit in anti CC units, then I can’t shoot enough which is paramount for AdMech. If I over commit in shooting. I can’t challenge distant objectives and I can’t handle infiltration heavy armies with speed. Admech have zero transports, flyers and are slow overall as a result. Admech have no inherent defence to Psykers. Most units that are engaged with chaff are useless when retreating, yet deploying too deep in my zone often means I can’t retreat.

 

Conversely, I don’t think you can out shoot Mars or Astra. Don’t play in their house too much. Make sure you bring a few aces up your sleeve to balance out your shortcomings.

 

That’s a lot for now, but trust me I get hammered against a lot of armies with my Mars. I don’t even always like taking Belasarius because the army becomes so focused its very hard to comeback from other alphas...Astra indirect fire for one.

 

I hope this helps you. I have beaten mars Admech with my Renegades, but again my lists are always, fast, violent and modular.

Edited November 5, 2017 by Prot

[Iron_Within]

Yeah against mech I did not have enough Line of Sight blocking terrain. In my subsequent games I have had loads. However the alpha strike still seems to kill me against Imperial Guard. One of the things I think I need to do is deploy more defensively and hiding. I've been thinking too much in terms of 7th with heavy weapons

[Warsmith Aznable]

The game has always had this problem IMO. The only way to fix it without dramatically rebalancing unit power levels is to change how turns work. One shooting phase with alternating unit activation between players would go a long way to making the game more playable.

[Panzer]

The game has always had this problem IMO. The only way to fix it without dramatically rebalancing unit power levels is to change how turns work. One shooting phase with alternating unit activation between players would go a long way to making the game more playable.

Sounds interesting for sure. Maybe they'll add that as optional way to play in the Chapter approved eventually (not necessarily this one of course).

[ChazSexington]

With the Alpha Legion, I Infiltrated 40 Cultists 13" (so -1 to Hit if they don't move) away from the Cadian IG squads. Thus, out of rapid fire range, but 100% in need of dealing with (Cadia re-rolls to hit rolls of 1 if they stand still, so he didn't want to move). It forced him to start firing a lot more than he wanted to into a chaff unit, saving some of my other units. I passed on the opportunity to autopass morale (he killed 23, so the rest died automatically from Morale), and opted for Killshot on my Predators to remove some LRBs (then fluffed all the dice), and lost the game by a point. It was definitely something that could work in the right place at the right time (Alpha Legion vs. Cadia).

[Panzer]

With the Alpha Legion, I Infiltrated 40 Cultists 13" (so -1 to Hit if they don't move) away from the Cadian IG squads. Thus, out of rapid fire range, but 100% in need of dealing with (Cadia re-rolls to hit rolls of 1 if they stand still, so he didn't want to move). It forced him to start firing a lot more than he wanted to into a chaff unit, saving some of my other units. I passed on the opportunity to autopass morale (he killed 23, so the rest died automatically from Morale), and opted for Killshot on my Predators to remove some LRBs (then fluffed all the dice), and lost the game by a point. It was definitely something that could work in the right place at the right time (Alpha Legion vs. Cadia).

Now that's something I haven't thought of. Probably because the AM player in my group mainly plays tanks anyway. But definitely something I'll keep in mind for my Stealth Suits and Ghostkeel. :P

[ChazSexington]

 

With the Alpha Legion, I Infiltrated 40 Cultists 13" (so -1 to Hit if they don't move) away from the Cadian IG squads. Thus, out of rapid fire range, but 100% in need of dealing with (Cadia re-rolls to hit rolls of 1 if they stand still, so he didn't want to move). It forced him to start firing a lot more than he wanted to into a chaff unit, saving some of my other units. I passed on the opportunity to autopass morale (he killed 23, so the rest died automatically from Morale), and opted for Killshot on my Predators to remove some LRBs (then fluffed all the dice), and lost the game by a point. It was definitely something that could work in the right place at the right time (Alpha Legion vs. Cadia).

Now that's something I haven't thought of. Probably because the AM player in my group mainly plays tanks anyway. But definitely something I'll keep in mind for my Stealth Suits and Ghostkeel.

 

 

It works better against tanks - even if you only have a few left, you can autopass the morale, then charge the tanks. I don't think IG tanks can withdraw AND shoot? Sure, the Cultists are dead, but Operation Human Shield would be successful! 

 

Alternatively, Bikes and a Sorcerer on bike. Deploy them out of LoS, Move, Warptime, Charge. It's just to tie up tanks. It works even better with Red Corsairs.

[Panzer]

 

 

With the Alpha Legion, I Infiltrated 40 Cultists 13" (so -1 to Hit if they don't move) away from the Cadian IG squads. Thus, out of rapid fire range, but 100% in need of dealing with (Cadia re-rolls to hit rolls of 1 if they stand still, so he didn't want to move). It forced him to start firing a lot more than he wanted to into a chaff unit, saving some of my other units. I passed on the opportunity to autopass morale (he killed 23, so the rest died automatically from Morale), and opted for Killshot on my Predators to remove some LRBs (then fluffed all the dice), and lost the game by a point. It was definitely something that could work in the right place at the right time (Alpha Legion vs. Cadia).

Now that's something I haven't thought of. Probably because the AM player in my group mainly plays tanks anyway. But definitely something I'll keep in mind for my Stealth Suits and Ghostkeel.

 

 

It works better against tanks - even if you only have a few left, you can autopass the morale, then charge the tanks. I don't think IG tanks can withdraw AND shoot? Sure, the Cultists are dead, but Operation Human Shield would be successful! 

 

Alternatively, Bikes and a Sorcerer on bike. Deploy them out of LoS, Move, Warptime, Charge. It's just to tie up tanks. It works even better with Red Corsairs.

 

I was mainly talking about the deploying 13" away to force him to move to get in Rapid Fire range and inside the "no -1 to-hit" bubble. ^^

[Iron_Within]

There is a suggestion in my group atm that 1500 point game might be better to mitigate alpha strike. What are peoples thoughts on this?

 

I thought about activating units for like assault for every phase. Problem you'd have is larger drop armies would be at an advantage because of you could dodge out the way after movement. My thoughts on a house rule/ alternate way was a D6 roll of each phase then I go you go per unit per phase, but with restriction on which order the units can do what. E.g. heavy support have to move first in the movement phase but last in the shooting phase to represent they're slower whereas fast attack can go before other options

[Panzer]

There is a suggestion in my group atm that 1500 point game might be better to mitigate alpha strike. What are peoples thoughts on this?

 

I thought about activating units for like assault for every phase. Problem you'd have is larger drop armies would be at an advantage because of you could dodge out the way after movement. My thoughts on a house rule/ alternate way was a D6 roll of each phase then I go you go per unit per phase, but with restriction on which order the units can do what. E.g. heavy support have to move first in the movement phase but last in the shooting phase to represent they're slower whereas fast attack can go before other options

Given I mainly play T'au, but honestly if an opponent wants to see a unit that's on the table dead, it will be dead as long as he goes first and can draw LoS. Exceptions are characters with less than 10 wounds of course.

At 1500 points I lose my multiple Pathfinder units against AM turn 1 regularly. All I can do is to try to embark them in transports, take more Pathfinder or deploy them out of LoS if I want any realistical choice of using them if I go second.

[ChazSexington]

There is a suggestion in my group atm that 1500 point game might be better to mitigate alpha strike. What are peoples thoughts on this?

 

I thought about activating units for like assault for every phase. Problem you'd have is larger drop armies would be at an advantage because of you could dodge out the way after movement. My thoughts on a house rule/ alternate way was a D6 roll of each phase then I go you go per unit per phase, but with restriction on which order the units can do what. E.g. heavy support have to move first in the movement phase but last in the shooting phase to represent they're slower whereas fast attack can go before other options

 

It's the core of the problem. If GW had been brave enough to do away with the final vestiges of the skirmish game they adapted for 40k, we could've had something akin to Bolt Action's activation (One die per unit in a bag, if you draw one with your colour, you activate one unit). 

 

As it stands, weaponry (both ranged and CC) is FAR cheaper than it should be, relative to the durability of most units. Whoever goes first has a significant chance of tabling their opponent by T4 if the opponent hasn't deployed very carefully or there's enough LoS-blocking to actively hinder any sort of optimum targetting. 

[GreyCrow]

Hey Iron !

 

What's your list made of ? There is so much one can do with battlefield tactics, maybe the next step to look at is the list :)

[Iron_Within]

The last list I used was this below. I've been tweaking it each game to see what I like

 

Iron Warriors, CP=8

 

Battalion

 

HQ – Chaos Lord, Chainsword, bolt pistol. Warlord, Cold and Bitter.

 

HQ – Exalted Champion, Power Axe, Combi Melta, Fleshmetal Exoskeleton

 

Troops – 15 Cultists with Autoguns

 

Troops – 15 Cultists with Autoguns

 

Troops – 15 Cultists with Autoguns

 

Spearhead

 

HQ – Sorcerer, Force Axe

 

Elites – 9 Berzerkers with Chainaxes, Power Fist

 

Elites – 9 Berzerkers with Chainaxes, Power Sword

 

Elites – 9 Berzerkers with Chainaxes, Power Axe

 

Dedicated Transport – Rhino, Combiflamer, Havoc Launcher

 

Dedicated Transport – Rhino, Combiflamer, Havoc Launcher

 

Dedicated Transport – Rhino, Combibolter, Havoc Launcher

 

Spearhead

 

HQ – Dark Apostle

 

Hellbrute – Twin Lascannon, Missile Launcher, Combi Bolter

 

Hellbrute – Twin Lascannon, Missile Launcher, Combi Bolter

 

Hellbrute – Twin Lascannon, Missile Launcher, Combi Bolter

 

Hellbrute – Twin Lascannon, Missile Launcher, Combi Bolter

 

Hellbrute – Twin Lascannon, Missile Launcher, Combi Bolter

[ChazSexington]

The last list I used was this below. I've been tweaking it each game to see what I like

 

Iron Warriors, CP=8

 

Battalion

 

HQ – Chaos Lord, Chainsword, bolt pistol. Warlord, Cold and Bitter.

 

HQ – Exalted Champion, Power Axe, Combi Melta, Fleshmetal Exoskeleton

 

Troops – 15 Cultists with Autoguns

 

Troops – 15 Cultists with Autoguns

 

Troops – 15 Cultists with Autoguns

 

Spearhead

 

HQ – Sorcerer, Force Axe

 

Elites – 9 Berzerkers with Chainaxes, Power Fist

 

Elites – 9 Berzerkers with Chainaxes, Power Sword

 

Elites – 9 Berzerkers with Chainaxes, Power Axe

 

Dedicated Transport – Rhino, Combiflamer, Havoc Launcher

 

Dedicated Transport – Rhino, Combiflamer, Havoc Launcher

 

Dedicated Transport – Rhino, Combibolter, Havoc Launcher

 

Spearhead

 

HQ – Dark Apostle

 

Hellbrute – Twin Lascannon, Missile Launcher, Combi Bolter

 

Hellbrute – Twin Lascannon, Missile Launcher, Combi Bolter

 

Hellbrute – Twin Lascannon, Missile Launcher, Combi Bolter

 

Hellbrute – Twin Lascannon, Missile Launcher, Combi Bolter

 

Hellbrute – Twin Lascannon, Missile Launcher, Combi Bolter

 

The bizarre thing is your Iron Warriors would be much better as Alpha Legion. -1 to Hit Helbrutes and you could infiltrate whatever you needed.

[Panzer]

 

The bizarre thing is your Iron Warriors would be much better as Alpha Legion. -1 to Hit Helbrutes and you could infiltrate whatever you needed.

 

Almost everything is better as Alpha Legion tho. The -1 trait and the infiltration stratagem are just too strong a combination.

[Iron_Within]

Agreed Alpha Legion is just straight better than the other legions.

[ChazSexington]

Agreed Alpha Legion is just straight better than the other legions.

 

Quoted for truth. 

 

I would actually thought your list as pretty solid against Alpha Strikes. I feel like a broken record, but firepower is way too cheap this edition. 

[GreyCrow]

Thanks Iron !

 

Out of the blue, I can see the big challenge that your list faces : it is quite easy for the opponent to prioritize his targets. In a nutshell, your helbrutes are the big targets here due to very good firepower off the bat.

If they are taken care of, the enemy then has to deal with 3 squads + HQs, with much less oomph than the 5 Helbrutes (if you have pics, that must be quite a sight!)

 

Imagine replacing your zerkers, rhinos and cultists with CSM squads, equipped with Plasma Pistol, Meltagun and Heavy Bolter for this exercise (as it's a loadout that compliments your Helbrutes power).

For about the same price as what your zerks, Rhinos and cultists cost, you can buy 5 of these squads for a total of 50 CSM.

 

This will allow you to drop one HQ which, while it's cool to have 4, simply add to the cost.

 

Now, you can even have points for one more squad. Picture this, 60 Marines, with back up ignores cover weapons should your big guns be silenced. Because one thing you can know for sure, it's that by the time all your brutes are dead, your meltas will be in range to finish the job!

 

Your Marines are here to either catch bullets or give you sustaining power. With 60 bodies, you can definitely get board control and deny close range alpha strikers (from this pesky Alpha Legion and their sneaky stratagem)

 

Marching up the board will deny the enemy any unit that can take the Brutes up close. Your only threat will be ranged weapons with high D, so make sure they are deployed last for you to find the best (or only) LOS blocking spots!

 

Can't tell this will win you tournaments, but that will give you enough sustain while spreading weapons as backups on your CSM squads.

[Iron_Within]

The hellbrutes I've got aren't WYSIWYG atm I'm afraid (a mix of old lead hellbute dark vengeance hellbrutes and converted loyalist hellbrutes).

I do have the marines to field a MEQ horde force, I'd possibly arm them with lascannons (my meta is very tank heavy) then have them advance as a phallanx With the cold and bitter warlord trait.

[Sception]

My main answer to alpha rush is to reserve most of my heavy hitters, usually in the form of terminators and/or obliterators with character support (a caster or two, whether sorcerer or prince, plus abaddon in larger games).  I also sometime take a side detachment of miscellaneous chaos mix that might include some alpha legion cultists or 'zerks.

 

In general, though, the problem is fundamental to the game mechanics, and there's not a lot for fixing it.  Even LoS blocking terrain isn't really a good solution given how many armies can ruin you with their own infiltrators or deep striking reserves.

 

A shared game turn with alternating activations is really the only solution to the problem that I can see.  We already have alternating activation in the close combat phase, just extend that to every other phase, and ditch separate player turns altogether.  Melee might have to be a bit deadlier to make up for only having melee once per game turn instead of twice as current.  Maybe bring back sweeping advances or some other locking mechanic instead of letting units freely walk out of combat.

 

But that's a pretty big departure from how 40k has always been played.  I don't really see GW going for it.