Of Serpents, Hemlocks and Modifiers

[Frater Cornelius]

Since I am kinda bored with Marines, I decided to dig up some old Guard I have and try them against an Eldar player preparing for his next 2150 tournament. My list was far from optimized due to model limitations and lack of understanding of how this army works in 8ed.

 

My list was pretty simple:

Battalion 1: Cadia, 2x25 Conscripts, 3x10 IS with Mortar, Commander with Bolter and Aquila, Primaris, 2 Taurox(es?) with SB

 

Battalion 2: MT, 2x5 Scions with 2 Plasmas and Plasma Pistol, 10 Scions with Vox, 4 Plasmas and Plasma Pistol, Tempestor Prime with Rod, Primaris, 2 Taurox Primes with Gatling and Volley

 

Spearhead: Cadia, Tank Commander Punisher with triple HB and SB, 1 Exterminator (Commissar Tank Stratagem), 2 Battle Tanks, 2 Executioners

 

I won't go into detail what happened. In short, his infantry died fairly quickly, although my Scion placement was limited due to his Intercept Stratagem. However, I had trouble with his tanks and with morale. The way he killed my Scions was to damage them and come around with the Hemlock for the -2Ld bubble. All of them died that way.

 

Another thing that caused me trouble were flanking War Walker with double lances. I had no way of stopping them and they took out an Executioner right away. Tarpitting them only works for so long because they are very decent in melee.

 

Lastly, and perhaps more prominently, I could not deal with his Wave Serpent and Hemlock. The former has the -1D shield that makes all my 2D or D3D weapons rather useless. The Scythe Wraithguard had free reign after they arrived. The latter had a -2 hit modifiet due to fly and Stratagem, making it impossible to land proper hits. Those units decided the game for him after they started taking out the Russes one by one, S10-12 -4AP being rather effective.

Hard hitting anti-tank is definitely needed. Harder than just 2D overcharged Plasmas.

 

He was playing Ulthwé, which is alright but not the strongest. Imagine Alaitoc now, with -2 or even -3 modifiers on the entire army. Tough match-up. I feel like Bullgryns and aggressive Flamers with Talarn might be needed here.

 

Anyway, that was my little excursion against Eldar. Hope it helps some of you ;)

[shandwen]

I can't help but think hydra have a purpose.

Eldar would cry to see half a dozen hydras pointed at their army where half their units fly, and serpent shields would not drop their damage too much.

Also scion would be great to play clean up latter in the game of you had no good drop placement early.

[micahwc]

Same thought here. Add a unit of hydras to your spearhead detachment. Or ally in a xiphon interceptor.

[Brother Captain Ed]

I can't help but think hydra have a purpose.

Eldar would cry to see half a dozen hydras pointed at their army where half their units fly, and serpent shields would not drop their damage too much.

Also scion would be great to play clean up latter in the game of you had no good drop placement early.

...why?

 

The Hydra really isn't that great. +1 to hit is nice, but in many cases it merely offsets the negative modifier. That would be fine if there was a ton of damage or some negative effect for fliers that get hit. There isn't. Serpent shields HALVE its already meager damage. How is that not a major issue?

 

Hydra shine against things like crisis suits, jump infantry, and jet bikes. For all other fliers they are fairly ho-hum. For all other targets they are a worse Autocannon. Even if they turn out to be an Eldar silver bullet, it will be very draining against all other matchups.

[Frater Cornelius]

I do not think the Hydra is good enough. It still hits a Hemlock on a 5+ without Stratagem and its 2D weapon is reduced to 1D with only -1AP against a Serpent. I still think getting close with Talarn and Bullgryns in transports is the way to beat Alaitoc.

[Mitchverr]

This might actually be the reason 1 would bring a salamander command vehicle along, +1 to hit.

 

Beyond that, its kind of hard to do much beyond a 5+ without saying "bring more dakka".

 

Or the use of officer of the fleet with lightning/thunderbolts armed with skystrikes.

[bigmic66]

I havnt played against new eldar but against hard to hit targets I normally open up with pask in battle tank, looking to wound the target with battle cannon and opening up overlapping fields of fire strategem. Uses 2cp but my volcano cannon only needs one hit..

[Halfpint100]

Hellhounds anyone? Just burn them out of the sky

[librisrouge]

Hellhounds anyone? Just burn them out of the sky

Does this answer make anybody else smile like an idiot?

 

On a similar note, a Malcador Infernus would be a hoot here.

[Mitchverr]

 

Hellhounds anyone? Just burn them out of the sky

Does this answer make anybody else smile like an idiot?

 

On a similar note, a Malcador Infernus would be a hoot here.

 

 

Might be 1 of the few times the malcador is a more useful asset vs multiple hellhounds actually, given its STR7 vs hound STR 6?

[Frater Cornelius]

How about totally ignoring the Hemlocks, take a list with decentralized threats, play Tallarn for mobility and simply overrun them? Taking a Serpent is possible with a bit of effort, especially with Flamers.

[Frater Cornelius]

New list:

Hidden Content

+++ New Roster (Warhammer 40,000 8th Edition) [107 PL, 2000pts] +++

++ Battalion Detachment +3CP (Imperium - Astra Militarum) ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

Regiment: Millitarum Tempestus

+ HQ +

Primaris Psyker: 4) Nightshroud, 5) Mental Fortitude, Force Stave

Tempestor Prime: Tempestus Command Rod

+ Troops +

Militarum Tempestus Scions
. 2x Scion: 2x Hot-shot Lasgun
. Scion w/ Special Weapon: Plasma gun
. Scion w/ Special Weapon: Plasma gun
. Tempestor: Chainsword, Plasma pistol

Militarum Tempestus Scions
. 2x Scion: 2x Hot-shot Lasgun
. Scion w/ Special Weapon: Plasma gun
. Scion w/ Special Weapon: Plasma gun
. Tempestor: Chainsword, Plasma pistol

Militarum Tempestus Scions
. 2x Scion: 2x Hot-shot Lasgun
. Scion w/ Special Weapon: Plasma gun
. Scion w/ Special Weapon: Plasma gun
. Tempestor: Chainsword, Plasma pistol

++ Spearhead Detachment +1CP (Imperium - Astra Militarum) ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

Regiment: Tallarn

+ HQ +

Tank Commander: Heavy Bolter, Heavy Bolters, THE LAURELS OF COMMAND
. Command Punisher: Turret-mounted Punisher Gatling Cannon

+ Elites +

Salamander Command Vehicle: Heavy bolter, Heavy Flamer

+ Fast Attack +

Hellhounds
. Hellhound: Heavy Flamer, Turret-mounted Inferno Cannon

+ Heavy Support +

Leman Russ Battle Tanks
. Leman Russ Executioner: Heavy Bolter, Turret-mounted Executioner Plasma Cannon

Leman Russ Battle Tanks
. Leman Russ Executioner: Heavy Bolter, Turret-mounted Executioner Plasma Cannon

Leman Russ Battle Tanks
. Leman Russ Executioner: Leman Russ Battle Tank: Battle Cannon, Heavy Bolter

++ Battalion Detachment +3CP (Imperium - Astra Militarum) ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

Regiment: Tallarn

+ HQ +

Company Commander: Astra Militarum Orders, Boltgun, Chainsword, THE DAGGER OF TU’SAKH

Primaris Psyker: 3) Psychic Barrier, 4) Nightshroud, Force Stave

+ Troops +

Conscripts: 20x Conscript

Conscripts: 20x Conscript

Infantry Squad
. 6x Guardsman
. Guardsman W/ Special Weapon: Flamer
. Heavy Weapon Team: Missile launcher
. Sergeant: Laspistol, Power maul

Infantry Squad
. 6x Guardsman
. Guardsman W/ Special Weapon: Flamer
. Heavy Weapon Team: Missile launcher
. Sergeant: Laspistol, Power maul

Infantry Squad
. 6x Guardsman
. Guardsman W/ Special Weapon: Flamer
. Heavy Weapon Team: Missile launcher
. Sergeant: Laspistol, Power maul

+ Elites +

Special Weapons Squad: 3x Guardsman
. Guardsman W/ Special Weapon: Plasma gun
. Guardsman W/ Special Weapon: Plasma gun
. Guardsman W/ Special Weapon: Plasma gun

Special Weapons Squad: 3x Guardsman
. Guardsman W/ Special Weapon: Plasma gun
. Guardsman W/ Special Weapon: Plasma gun
. Guardsman W/ Special Weapon: Plasma gun

Veterans
. Veteran Sergeant: Chainsword, Plasma pistol
. 5x Veteran w/ Lasgun
. Veteran w/ Special Weapon: Plasma gun
. Veteran w/ Special Weapon: Plasma gun
. Veteran w/ Special Weapon: Plasma gun
. Veteran w/ Vox-caster: Lasgun, Vox-caster

+ Dedicated Transport +

Taurox: 2x Autocannon

Taurox: 2x Autocannon

Taurox: 2x Autocannon

 

Something I cooked up under influence of a healthy lifestyle Not sure how efficient it is, but it capitalizes on what several of my opponent perceived as highly annoying, whether I play SM or IG, and that is mobility. The plan is to use 3CP to outflank both SWS and the Tank Commander and the Dagger to outflank the Commander with the Veteran Squad. Meanwhile, Scions will rain from the sky. The Tank Commander has Laurels since I lack re-rolling 1s on the Russes so he can either prevent overheating or just increase their mobility. The logic is that I can not deal with Serpents or Hemlocks, but I tell you what I can do. I can force awkward deployment, keep key units in reserve to prevent alpha strike, outmaneuver you and score you to death. I do not care if you have 2 Hemlocks flying around. If the entire board belong to me, you lost

Edited November 6, 2017 by Frater Cornelius

[Halfpint100]

Laurels only give bonus order to the same unit on a 4+. Worth spending a Cp for? Debatable considering TC have one order a turn.

[NatBrannigan]

Oooh, Eldar are overpowered! See everyone! Nothing to see in the Guard codex, move along and start hating Eldar!

 

Just to clarify the above, while I am most certainly being facetious it's towards everyone who's been moaning about our army since the index came out... Not any posts here :)

 

Those modifiers do sound nasty... Sounds like weight of fire is what you want against the Serpent, probably punishers or something that does so much damage that losing 1 per shot really doesn't matter that much... Punishers with various orders and re-rolls should do a nice bit of damage though.

 

The Hemlock does sound problematic. Park it near our Infantry and they'll soon start to disappear. annoyingly some of the slightly tongue in cheek flamer suggestions are spot on. If it's near enough to use it's bubble it's near enough to burn. I hate that flamers are the best anti-air option at the moment... 

[micahwc]

So finally a use for all the flamers on my infantry sprues? I've got like 20 of them.

[Frater Cornelius]

Laurels only give bonus order to the same unit on a 4+. Worth spending a Cp for? Debatable considering TC have one order a turn.

 

That is good enough. Between the Salamander Tank and the 1CP extra order, there is some leeway.

[Feral_80]

I doubt a Salamander is worth it. Just add another light tank or bodies. It is too expensive unless you are using it in a superheavy with sponsons.

 

As for the codes eldar: it is less broken than in 7th, but likely as annoying. The proliferation of -1 hit around in many armies was bad enough. The fact that eldars can get even -2 or -3 is simply frustrating. That, and the fact that Alaitoc is plainly better than all other craftworlds in an average game, and that many eldar players are now so fond of playing it, means that this is indeed a poorly designed codex. It's a bit sad.

[Frater Cornelius]

It is a problem that warrants a solution. Yeah, it is dumb, but unfortunately this is the way it is now. It'll be a cold day in hell the moment I'll bow to a xenos army, be it with SM or IG ;)

[Mitchverr]

It is a problem that warrants a solution. Yeah, it is dumb, but unfortunately this is the way it is now. It'll be a cold day in hell the moment I'll bow to a xenos army, be it with SM or IG

 

Yup, and remember, if nothing else works...

 

 

This is suprisingly becoming more and more of a thing for me, though not so much bayonets as it is hunting lances.... (a friend of mine had a quick game with his eldar vs me today and i took a fluff krieg force, ran into this problem and simply put, i stopped firing at the vehicles and just kept charging them with death riders over and over again, worked okay as a last resort). Though this was vs hover tanks, not aircraft, waiting for my order from empire of men so i got a pair of planes to use as thunderbolts.

Edited November 6, 2017 by Mitchverr

[NatBrannigan]

We've been properly spoilt with out codex where just about every unit is worth taking and every regiment has it's plus and minus points. Some are probably slightly stronger than others but it's close!

 

All the other codices we've seen so far have had a stand out choice or two as far as Craftworld, Chapter, Forgeworld etc go. It's a shame for those players really but just makes me love our new codex all the more. It's nearly perfect (Commissars now being an active hindrance not withstanding...).

 

I wonder if we'll get make your own Leman Russ rules at some point? I know make your own Land Raider rules are on the way but there are already loads of Russ varieties. I suspect a Leman Russ with an Incinerator cannon on the turret (forgeworld 30k Leman Russ Incinerator model is a beaut) would make short work of those pesky elves, or pretty much anyone else for that matter! A man can dream...

[Mitchverr]

Yeah, we got lucky in all being worth using, but its a shame we got nothing that specifically helps to negate the massive "- to hit" stuff out there.

 

 

As for "make your own russ" etc, if land raider works out i can see it, however I kind of hope it isnt russ, as that already has pretty much all the guns in the armoury on that hull in 1 way or another, I would hope its more applicable to other hulls like the chimera or taurox to turn them into light tanks, maybe the tauros venators getting more weapon options or better yet, turn the centaur into a tankette.

[Feral_80]

Well a couple FW units do grant +1 hit for either a vehicle or an infantry squad, but frankly they are rarely worth it since they are limited to one unit each.

 

The really bad thing for us in facing Eldar, is that apparently most of the times it will mean facing Ataitoc. And an average, tac-AM list will seriously struggle against it, because hitting at -1, often at -2 (or even -3 in some cases) is really too much for an army that mostly has BS 4+. A large section of a (again, average) AM list will be nearly useless: all the artillery, long-range tanks, heavy weapon squads, mortars, etc. etc.

 

An AM army can be tuned up to face Alaitoc quite effectively, mainly by taking more flanking/assault units, and likely going all-Tallarn. But that is a specific counter: it's not the army that most AM people would bring to a tournament, or even to a casual game. That's the bad part about Eldar-Alaitoc: it's not unbeatable, but it makes a large part of our options (and, as such, army configurations) useless. That's quite annoying really.

Edited November 7, 2017 by Feral_80

[Beams]

A +1 to hit on infantry squads goes a long way, especially since it only costs 20 pts.

 

Combine squad 2 is's a turn and throw in a few searchlights. It won't make it easy to fight Eldar, but should help a bit.

[dadieau]

My son plays skinnies and I play guard. The first couple of games we played my 7th and earlier paradigm told me not to even bother shooting at his flyer. It trashed my armor in both games. So game 3 I decided to shoot at it.  Flyers don't have many wounds and if you spend some serious fire power early on they go down pretty quickly. Minus 1 to hit is not that big a deal. Losing the extra die for damage is also not that bad because as I said flyers don't have that many wounds or that great a save for that matter.

[Mitchverr]

My son plays skinnies and I play guard. The first couple of games we played my 7th and earlier paradigm told me not to even bother shooting at his flyer. It trashed my armor in both games. So game 3 I decided to shoot at it.  Flyers don't have many wounds and if you spend some serious fire power early on they go down pretty quickly. Minus 1 to hit is not that big a deal. Losing the extra die for damage is also not that bad because as I said flyers don't have that many wounds or that great a save for that matter.

 

The thing is, it isnt just -1 to hit for flyer vs the build being talked about here, its -2 or even -3, guard are only 4+ on most anti vehicle equipment, meaning we need 6s to hit the flyers if we can even hit them at all.

 

Thats where the problem is sadly, stacking of modifiers, if it was the same -1 as all other flyer shooting, I dont think it would be an issue, but sadly guard is 1 of those armies that will suffer problems vs the "stealth" builds out there, which is why I am looking at our own air support with air to air missiles to help bring down the enemy craft.