Ultra Tactica: Taking on Tyranids

[Prot]

Strap in. I think this is going to be a tough one.

 

I feel like this phase of 8th edition is where we really get tested and the shine will start to fall off for some newer Ultramarines players. In the upcoming weeks we see newer marines for the first time and Tyranids next week.

 

The snippets I’ve seen are pretty impressive. The test games I’ve seen have had marines on the receiving end of the new Nids ( without the blessed Primarch) and it hasn’t been pretty. But it’s all new, so learning curves on both sides.

 

On the surface there’s strong changes to Synapse. It will be much harder to break the hive mind. Ranges are extended and the penalty for being out of synapse is very light, in the form of negatives to BS and -2 to charge rolls.

 

There’s also our first glimpse at potential anti Psyker possibilities that extend far beyond taking a Culexus. Shadow in the Warp and certain combinations in the codex may actually threaten the capabilities of Psyker heavy armies for the first time in 8 th. We’ll see.

 

The last obvious change I noted is of course points have dropped dramatically. Things like Flyrants are most certainly making a comeback. The dakka Fex is a measly 105 points and is basically Dreadnought stats with a pile of shots that really makes me question Aggressors a lot.

 

I can see catalyst being a paining these multiwound units again. And even the Swarmlord got a nit of a boost.

 

The Tyranids have their bases covered better than the index by a mile. I see with their traits that we will see multi-Hive trait detachments in tournaments taking advantage of most phases of the game. This is a trend I’ve noted since AdMech and is becoming more prevalent with every codex since. It’s odd because most Adeptus Astartes really don’t play that way, but I really think this is going to be a thing moving forward.

 

Tyranids have a firm grasp on spam, specialized assault, and / or shooty, fast units. It’s going to be a heck of a challenge.

 

I personally know 3 people with substantial Nid armies and I’m looking forward to opening my first ‘Termagant Wings N’ Fries’ restaurant on Konor! ( if I live long enough to stock the franchise!)

[Frater Cornelius]

Take Guilliman. Isn't that the answer to all tactical questions? Truth be told, I am sort of stopping to care. An inferior book can only do so much. I will be tested very much indeed. Unfortunately, I give rules far more weight than I should, so DA may yank me back for all I know.

 

Anyway, there are probably a few things that can be done, though doubt that there is any way of salvaging the situation. First advice, learn to optimize. I guess that the game you are referring to was Lawrence against Bone from TTT. No offense to Bone, I love this guy, but he isn't a very good player running a suboptiomal list.

 

No that that's out of the way, let's discuss potential Tyranid lists. There will probably be two major archtypes, shooty and choppy. Each of those will have the swarm and Nidzilla sub-category. Let's look at choppy first. Those lists usually rely on Deep Striking via Spore, Trygon or Lictors (Stratagem). To counter that, use Scouts. Their infiltration ability allows them to push out deep strikers. Even if the unit can move again via Swarm Lord or has charge bonuses, it will be well out of range if you position yourself well. Sure, you will lose the Scouts, but that's a rather small price to pay. 55-65pts, in fact. I would also recommend to have a heavy hitter like Hellblasters or Centurions or whatever disembarked against those lists as Auspex helps against Mawlocs.

If they come rushing up the board... well, there isn't much of a counter other than killing them quickly. Ironclads or other tough melee fighters with Might of Heroes will be able to block them for a while. I guess the deployment type here is relevant, but SM do not have the tools to slow down melee rushes outside of the TFC Stratagem.

 

Shooty lists are a bit more tricky. I have no experience with those, so I can not really comment. All I can say it that SM may be outmatched, because they lack meaningful staying power and capacity for longer games. Tyranids have plenty of bodies to stick around for a while and they will outscore Marines. I guess we need more info on what their capabilities are.

 

There is also the potential for Psychic shenanigans, so I suppose Psychic Fortress , Armour of Contempt and a Culexus will gain prevalence.

Edited November 6, 2017 by Frater Cornelius

[Captain Idaho]

I'm glad Tyranids are getting good again. I was wiping out Tyranids armies with little losses in my games so they were long behind the curve.

 

Ultramarines enjoy our Chapter Tactic against them. It works wonders. Make Tyranids pay for crossing the board, shoot them in Overwatch and then retreat and shoot them again for not finishing the unit off!

 

I've said it before but Space Marines play best with some numbers. My 2000pts list has 51 infantry models in it of various types.

 

I think players still play Ultramarines and Space Marines in general like 7th edition. MSU is dead. You might have the killing power and board control but you haven't got the numbers for attritional warfare.

 

Tactical Marines are amazing. They have a combi and special weapons etc and when they die in numbers and down to a handful of models you still pack a punch since you keep those weapons firing until the end. Plasma guns in these squads are the bane of large monsters and you will be able to over charge more readily since when you just have 2 models left amongst the Tyranids they're probably on borrowed time anyway. May as well risk it!

 

Against Tyranids we should treat them with respect but not fear them. Gun line tactics will see us dead. I've charged and killed Genestealers without loss using Tactical Marines! My Vanguard aren't scared!

[Brother Lunkhead]

Without actually seeing the codex its difficult to speculate on what the best weapons' loadout is going to be optimal against the new 'nids. But I suspect as usual it's going to involve lots of bolt rounds and heat. Movement and range will be important too.

 

Captain Idaho and Frater Cornelius make some great points. Having as many marines on the board shooting will be important. Also, don't be afraid to sacrifice a unit if it helps to kill a key target and/or slow your opponent down. Just make sure they don't die in vain.

 

Looking forward to a good challenge from the Tyranids 

[Ishagu]

Tyranids being strong again is awesome.

I really want to meet them head on but I feel the general Marine units are so expensive.

 

Grav Centurions would do work against Nids but 340 points give or take for 3 models isn't really viable :-(

Shame too, now that our infantry models can withdraw from combat and shoot.

[Guiltysparc]

I think HOGs are going to be your friend vs tyranids.  HOG laden Redemptors and Repulsors are going to be effective since the volume can shred gaunts and punch holes in the bigger bugs also.

[Frater Cornelius]

I think HOGs are going to be your friend vs tyranids.  HOG laden Redemptors and Repulsors are going to be effective since the volume can shred gaunts and punch holes in the bigger bugs also.

 

My money is on the Repulsor, as it can not be tied up in melee. Redemptor is too soft. It will either break or be crippled after one solid charge. A Repulsor, especially with Might of Heroes, is a tougher nut to crack. Then there is also the -2 Charge.

[Captain Idaho]

Contemptors will help too as they have a S7 assault cannon.

[Frater Cornelius]

Contemptors will help too as they have a S7 assault cannon.

 

This guy will be solid to tackle the big monsters, but probably inferior to even the Redemptor when it comes to murdering hordes.

[Captain Idaho]

Whilst the Contemptor is still effective against light infantry (it gets 4 bolter shots and 6 shots with its Kheres) the Redemptor is a solid anti horde unit in a stationary or counter attack role.

 

Redemptors are solid at backing up a defensive formation with some power fist action.

 

But yes the Contemptor is an elites hunter primarily.

 

***

 

Let's not eschew attacking play folks. I've just watched a Battle Report where a Primaris force just stood there and took the attack from the Tyranids and it suffered for it.

 

We can't be rabbits in the head lights.

 

I'm thinking my Cataphractii will be tasked with dropping down and attack the artillery bugs along with some Vanguard support (your choices may vary). This will force the opponent to decide if he wishes to split his attack force to return and try and deal with my own attack force or press on and risk losing his backfield.

 

Either way can be beneficial to us as less coming for us is easier target selection whilst Tyranids fire support that us neutralised will give us ranged superiority and enable us to easier coordinate a counter strike.

Edited November 6, 2017 by Captain Idaho

[Frater Cornelius]

I stand by my Assault 2 lists with Scout support. Hit the Nid before it hits you. If the board is big enough you have the capacity for a cat and mouse game.

[Daigo Cannon]

Tarantulas are going to be an option, fast attack is not a used slot, heavy bolter or assault cannon add number to the shooting phase with S5+/AP-1, use them to cover objectives and cover for DS.

[beefeb]

Any high firepowet/dice throwers so my thoughts....

 

Hvy bolter centurians

Hog dreadnoughts

Hog repulsors

Hvy bolter aggressors

Missile launchers and hvy bolters on devastators

 

Throw in a culexus or sos for anti psyker and fight fure with fire in the form of tigurius supported by primaris librarians for the exrra wounds.

 

I love fighting big nid armies. Really suits my thoughts or mental images of the starship trooper type battles.

[Frater Cornelius]

If the CA leaks are valid, then Inceptors will perform well. 18 HB shots anywhere you want for 135 is solid.

[Ishagu]

Yeah the Primaris are getting a boost if the leaks are true. Some very welcome reductions.

90 points for 5 Intercessors is great, as is 195 points for 5 Agressors with Wargear.

 

The Termie point drops look good too. Squad of 5 for under 200 :-)

Edited November 8, 2017 by Ishagu

[Frater Cornelius]

I hear that Nidzilla is popular among folks. Maybe Plasma is the better options then. Plasma Inceptors would cost 177 for 3 and can do some solid damage along with Hellblasters. Not sure if classic Marines can beat that in terms of output given the price when it comes to Plasma.

[Captain Idaho]

Nah 177pts for 3 models like that is too much. Stick with the Assault Bolters.

 

If folk are taking Inceptors they really need multiple targets to saturate target selection. They're still vulnerable but if you have Reivers and other Primaris choices beating down the doors then the Inceptors should be okay.

 

If you want plasma killing then stick with Hellblasters.

 

Well that's if you want a Primaris focus.

 

If you want plasma in a Space Marines army you should stick it in your Tactical squads (double plasma per squad) and save on the points going into the compulsory Troops choice for other powerful options.

 

Grav Cannons in a Tactical squad with dual plasma is incredibly useful. S5 on the Grav Cannon is a little meagre but adding another 4 AP-3 with D3 wounds is nice.

 

Anecdote time - a Trygon Prime and Genestealer brood (15) from the Index popped out in the flank in my deployment zone. My 10 man Tactical squad with dual plasma and Grav Cannon jumped out of a Rhino, Scion of Guilliman fire and killed about 10 Genestealers and reduced the Tyrgon down in wounds to about 2 wounds, alongside the help with a Venerable Dreadnought hitting the Trygon with some anti tank fire and the rapid fire of the Rhino.

 

I then proceeded to charge the Genestealers with the Tactical Marines and killed another 3 before they could strike. Next turn the Trygon charges in and I lose a handful of models (2 Genestealers are still scary but much easier to deal with) and then in my turn I retreated using the Ultramarines Chapter Tactic to finish the 2 models.

[beefeb]

Yes the chapter fallback and fire is a great tactic against nid horde units that used to tie you up.

 

I havent tried it but a friend swears by assault centurians for killing the big ones in cc. Anyone any experience of this?

[Kallas]

Yes the chapter fallback and fire is a great tactic against nid horde units that used to tie you up.

 

I havent tried it but a friend swears by assault centurians for killing the big ones in cc. Anyone any experience of this?

If you can deliver them (well, Stormraven) then they're plenty capable of bringing big beasties down.

 

With Flamers and Hurricane Bolters on a three man squad they'll do an average of 4.9 wounds to T5/6/7 Sv3+ from shooting (2.6 if they're not in Flamer range, but then their charge will be dodgy too).

 

In melee, assuming there charging (and you use them first!) They'll do:

vs T6/7, 4++ - 4.6 wounds

vs T6/7, 3+ - 9 wounds

On top of guns beforehand, that's pretty much a dead whatever you want.

 

Also, those numbers are without any rerolls factored in, so a Captain/Chapter Master/Scions of Guilliman and a Lieutenant thrown in massively ups their wounding rates, for example:

 

vs T6/7, 3+/4++:

6 wounds from guns

6 wounds from melee (mostly low because of the Invulnerable save; so watch out for Hive Tyrants).

 

(Against anything T5 they will utterly violate in melee. Shame that Wraithguard are now T6 :P )

 

Even with the rumoured increase to Hurricane Bolter cost pushing Assault Centurions up to 81ppm total, they're still excellent.

 

Now I need to finish my conversions... hmm...

Edited November 8, 2017 by Kallas

[Frater Cornelius]

Played against Nids. Pretty min-max, even though I was doing a more relaxed list. My opponent's list:

Hidden Content

Brigade - Kraken

 

Swarm Lord

Malanthrope

Flyrant with 24 6/0/1 shots

 

20 Genestealers - 5 Acid Maws

20 Genestealers - 5 Acid Maws

30 Termagaunts - 15 with 3 shots 4/0/1, rest vanilla

3 Rippers

3 Rippers

3 Rippers

 

Lictor

Pyrovore

6 Hive Guard with Impaler

 

Mucolid Spore

Mucolid Spore

Mucolid Spore

 

Biovore

Biovore

Trygon

 

My list:

Hidden Content

Battalion + Vanguard

 

Big Daddy Calgar

Primaris Libby - Relic

Primaris Lieutenant

 

Redemptor - OC, HOC, 2 SB

Venerable Dread - TLC, ML

Primaris Ancient - Relic Banner

 

10 Intercessors - Assault 2 guns

5 Scouts - HB, SB on sarge

5 Scouts - HB, SB on sarge

 

3 Tarantulas - THB

3 Tarantulas - THB

 

6 Hellblatsers - Assault 2 guns

Vindicator Laser Destroyer

 

Repulsor - 283pts dakka version

 

Boy did it look scary once his critters arrived. I started and did rather little, but then the Trygon arrived with 30 Gaunts, the Lictor with the 1CP Stratagem brought the 20 GS while the other 20 used the Kraken Stratagem to advance across the board and then got boosted by the Swarmlord as well. T1 charges? Pff, easy. Kronos was amazing for this list with the "roll 3 dice and pick the highest when advancing" as well as their Stratagem and the ability to retreat and charge. If I wasn't playing UM and denying his retreat by falling back and shooting, it would've been devastating.

 

Anyway, how did it go? Well, I thought I would lose after this first turn, but in the end I make it through while only losing 3 Hellblasters, 6 Tarantulas, 7 Scouts and 2 Intercessors. Go figure Oo Well, the Repulsor was down to 5 HP and the Redemptor down to 3. It appears that Primaris are a bad match-up for Nids, as I noticed the same thing every time I played against Nids. They struggle getting past the T4 3+ 2W. The one mod of Genestealers got hung up on the Redemptor after getting buffed with Might of Heroes and stayed there for a while until the three HQs ran in to support. Tarantulas and Scouts did an amazing job at dictating where the opponent would deep strike his units, funneling them where he did not want them. The rest was a simple battle of attrition, where his damage was insufficient and UM Primaris just moved back and fired.

 

I suspect that shooty Nids, using Exocrines as so forth, would have an easier time, but Genestealer rushes, while amazing against Razorbacks, IG, Eldar and all that jazz, fall short at killing Priamris of all things. Go figure. Bringing Guilliman and polishing the list would've been overkill.

Edited November 28, 2017 by Frater Cornelius

[Captain Idaho]

How did you find Calgar got on in such a list? What were his highlights?

 

Nice win. I find that Ultramarines really thrive against Orks and Tyranids etc simply because even our Bolters brings down their troops and we can easily fall back to carry on the shooting.

 

Did you find the Intercessors held the line well though?

 

*think you meant Hive Fleet Kraken ;) *

[Frater Cornelius]

Yes, sorry. Kraken. The one where you roll 3D6 and pick the highest for running, retreat and charge and get the Stratagem that doubles your run move.

 

Calgar did not get much done in combat. He got stuck in with a group of Genestealers that were wrangling with the T8 Redemptor. However, there were a few interesting moment. I placed him in reserve and I had the option of getting Domination turn 1 if I had placed him on a remove objective. I would've risked losing him to deep-striking Stealers, though. I was not sure if it was worth the risk. The flexibility of his deployment paid off though. And then there is the 5CP effective difference between picking him and using the 3CP on a CM. It helped a lot, since my 5+ CP rolls sucked. But then again, I was content on using his tactical advantages and not his combat prowess, just as Calgar would. I mean, he wasn't the one who killed the Warboss in Calgar's Siege :P

One thing I noticed though, the hit re-rolls are not the deal breaker. With UM you can stick with Scions and Wisdom Stratagems. It matters little when hitting on a 3+. What makes Guilliman so powerful is the Wound re-roll. Calgar + Lieutenant are no replacement. This demands a different play style, one that I did not practice as of yet.

His highlights were... well, the biggest highlight was that there was no highlight. It was rather tactical and free of risk.

 

Intercessors did great. The 2W really help against the massed 1 damage attacks. Only one Intercessor Squad got stuck in, as the other was busy on the other side hunting Gaunts. But they did well enough. Do not imagine it as a wave crashing against a wall, but a wave getting weakened by breakwaters (Tarantulas, Scouts) so that only a minor force could arrive at the Intercessors, which they could hold back.

[Captain Idaho]

It's possible, as 40K moves to games with larger contingents than "all your points spent on uber guns" that Intercessors will become premium.

 

I find taking larger numbers of infantry in my lists a bonus since you can better absorb losses and still hit back. If many other players do this then Intercessors will find themselves shooting ideal targets.

 

Tyranids have helped turn the game towards more numbers and I think Orks will cement it.

[Frater Cornelius]

I am considering to up the number of regular infantry on the board. More Intercessors, more Scouts and more Reivers. It will come at the cost of anti-tank though. But in Guard, Orks and Nids dominate the scene, then Primaris will do well.

[Captain Idaho]

Ah you need anti tank. It's crucial in actual fact.

 

It's the difficult conundrum for Primaris armies. Using Intercessors you lack the weapons support you'd get from Tactical Marines.

 

What are your thoughts on the units you're dropping for more troops?