Ultra Tactica: Taking on Tyranids

[Frater Cornelius]

Well, I would be dropping at least one unit of 3 Tarantulas, as they got a 10ppm hike. I will also be moving back to RF Hellblasters and I will be thinking about Plasma Inceptors in some lists, either 3 to help the Hellblasters or maybe even 6 to replace the Hellblasters. I feel like the Plasma has reached a critical mass in Primaris-heavy lists to make it a viable alternative to tackle S7 spam. UM have good ways of making those save with Scions of Guilliman, Wisdom of the Ancients and the regular characters as well.

 

As for other anti-tank options, the Venerable Dread is solid, as is the Vindicator Laser Destroyer and Sicaran Venator. To be fair, the cheaper Primaris open a whole lot of new combinations for my lists, so I will need to try those first, before I can say what's good and what isn't.

 

Besides, with Guilliman, even the humble Bolter becomes an anti-tank weapon, to there is a little leeway and a serious option to skip LCs altogether in favour of Plasmas and Bolters.

[Toxichobbit]

The experiences of people in this thread are different to the Tyranids I've been playing against. If you're playing against a ranged Tyranid army that does more than just spam Genestealers, it's a very different game.

 

My opponent is playing Astra Millitaranids, i.e. a Tyranid gunline. It's very effective against Marines and even our Eldar player is having issues. For context, we're playing 1,000, 1,500 and 1,800 points with balanced lists, so not tailoring against the Tyranids but trying to account for anything we might face. Mostly Matched Play, but with a bit of Open War (using the deck) thrown in when we're feeling fruity. We also tend to play more relaxed games, so I don't use Guilliman as the answer to everything and play most of the time without him.

 

I haven't faced Genestealers at all. There may be an internet boner for them right now, but our Tyranid player never uses them and it’s not making him suffer. I think once the initial excitement for how good Genestealers are wears off more Tyranid players will realise that there's more than one way to digest an opponent and the spam will die down. By extension, we need to be ready to adapt and not assume we're facing a melee horde. I'm already at that stage, I was initially prepared for melee hordes and feeling secure with decent amounts of bolter fire and Codex Discipline to (literally) fall back on if they got too close. Given the responses in this thread that might have worked had I faced a typical 'stealer spam, it didn't work against the Nidzilla ranged lists I've been facing. I think that bit is important, because if Tyranid players really start to switch it up and you never know if you're going to face heavy ranged or heavy melee, the above tactics won't always work.

 

I'll go into detail about some of the stuff I've regularly faced and my thoughts on them below. First though, a quick caveat. I'm basing this (mostly) on experience rather than theory. As such, this isn't a comprehensive list of combinations and units, just the stuff I've faced and thought noteworthy. So, while I might say, for example, Pathogenic Slime is used on a Tyrannofex, that's applying the stratagem to the lists I face. You might find it applied to different Monsters, Exocrines, Hive Tyrants, Harpies etc. Likewise, I tend to face Single-Minded Annihilation buffed Hive Guard, but you might face it in combination with Biovores. As with everything, your mileage may vary.

 

Tyranid Warriors & Tyranid Prime: mostly armed with Deathspitters and Venom Cannons. Most Tyranid players seem to poo poo ranged Warriors. They mistakenly believe that because they have WS 3+ and A 3 they aren't getting use out of them if they don't get them into melee. Bollocks. Three shots at Str 5, AP -1 with a threat range of 31+ inches (Assault weapons so they can advance) is a damn respectable profile for 25ppm that fills a Troops slot and gives a Synapse bubble. That said, they really need the Prime to get them to effective BS 3+ and the Prime is expensive, coming in at just over 100 points after gear. In fact, the Prime is mandatory if the Tyranid player ever wants to advance them, because the -1 to hit is just too much otherwise (and they're not going to waste their one manifestation of Onslaught on Warriors*). The Venom Cannon adds some nice firepower at longer range and increases the variety of targets they can engage. It'll consistently strip a wound or two off vehicles a turn, or steadily reduce the numbers of Marines on the field. Its decent range combined with it being Assault means it can be used to move towards mid field and hit backline units like Devastators or worse, Hellblasters. In other words, the units that you'd rather not get hit by a weapon that wounds on a 2+ with AP-2. It’s especially potent against Primaris, as each one that fails his save has a 66%(ish) chance of dying to its D3 wounds.

 

They're not too hard to kill and you can deal with them with anti-infantry firepower, though you're going to need something stronger to take out the Prime. I'd say this unit is medium threat (Prime is low threat). Think of them in a similar way to our Taticals and Intercessors. They're not flashy like Genestealers but not chaff like Gaunts. A solid mid-range unit (and HQ) that will put out consistent damage and occasionally do something impressive with those Venom Cannons.

 

Hormagaunts: I know I said I face ranged Tyranids, but even then there's still a little melee in there. Honestly, Hormagaunts have just been gimme kills so far. Usually I've been able to direct anti-infantry firepower and reduce them to almost nothing quite quickly. They're fast but because they need to get into melee to do anything they tend to be up front and just form a natural bullet sponge. Their (IMO) best use is a combination of soaking up firepower that you'd rather put elsewhere and threatening to stop units from firing by getting into melee with them, though the latter is partially countered by Codex Discipline. We still need to deal with them sooner rather than later but it's not disastrous if they get into melee. Just make sure to keep them off vehicles because losing a Predator's firepower to a couple of Hormagaunts charging it is bad times.

 

I think they'd be much more of a threat to a list that couldn't fall back and shoot or if the Tyranid player had Genestealers, as the Hormagaunts are then forcing hard choices about whether to shoot the wave of 5pt bodies speeding to tie stuff up in melee or target the more dangerous but less numerous Genestealers. For me though, these are in the low threat range. An annoyance rather than something I'm concerned about. They just soak up some anti-infantry firepower in early turns, taking a bit of the heat off the Warriors and Termagants and if a few make it into melee, being Ultramarines I don't care that much. Not that I really face them anymore, our Tyranid player has dropped them from his lists.

 

Termagants & Tervigon: More chaff, but cheaper (and IMO better) than Hormagaunts. I've faced these critters in three different ways. All Devourers coming up with a Trygon Prime, a bigger, mixed weapon brood backed up by a Tervigon or a big mixed weapon brood on its own. If you face the third option, they're not a problem. Termagants on their own have ok firepower, but its short ranged and they are easy to kill. Coming up with a Trygon is more dangerous, because they're going to shoot you with a lot of shots (don't be shocked when they shoot twice with the Single-Minded Annihilation stratagem). They'll then die because you don't want a second round of Devourer fire.

 

So far, the Tervigon + Termagants has been (to my surprise), the nastiest 'Gant combo. I theorised that the Tervigon was bad because it was a big, juicy target that itself wasn't a big threat. It just buffed the Termagants. I was wrong. It’s a solid piece because you can't really afford to shoot it. Its personal threat is pathetic for its points cost and that's what keeps it alive. Your big guns have other things to worry about - things that will kill your best units if you don't deal with them. So, mama Tervigon gets to plod up the board largely untargeted doing its thing, and that thing is good. We know well the power of re-rolls and on a unit of 30 Termagants pumping out 75 (half with Fleshborers, half with Devourers) Str 4 shots a turn, re-rolling 1s is (unsurprisingly) fantastic. Furthermore, its boosting the Termagants numbers by bringing back 10 a turn* which has the dual effect of nullifying your first 10 kills and upkeeping the Termagants second buff, their native re-rolling 1s to wound. I don't think I need to say how good re-rolling 1s to hit and wound is on that much firepower. It's also Synapse and a Psyker, so can get off a cheeky Smite every now and then while buffing other units with Onslaught or Catalyst and making sure everything holds the line. It has staying power closer to a Land Raider than a Predator, so while it's far from un-killable, having the kind of firepower you need to reliably take it down before it's done its work is tricky as that firepower is sorely needed elsewhere.

 

Venomthropes & Malanthrope: they give -1 to hit rolls and are really annoying to kill when played well. Close to impossible given the positioning requirements (Venomthropes are hidden out of LoS, Malanthrope can't be targeted unless it's the closest model) and the need to use your firepower elsewhere. Pitiful personal threat, but then that's not why they're used. Luckily my main Tyranid opponent hasn't been able to get hold of any Venomthropes (and is too much of a clutz to risk spending money on a big resin model) so I don't have to face them. However, I've used them so I know exactly what a pain in the arse they are. If you can get the chance to take them out, do it. Also seeing as we like to spam plasma on these boards, be careful Overcharging. I only risk it with Scions of Guilliman active on Tacticals and never with Hellblasters. This dual effect of getting less hits and forcing us to seriously consider Overcharging is a big boost to Tyranids already strong attrition game. I'd rate these as high threats simply because of how durable they make the rest of the list; the problem is you often don't get the opportunity to put enough shots into them to take them down.

 

N.B. Venomthropes need 3+ models in a brood to give the -1 to hit to a Monster unit, so don't let your opponent get his bonus if he only has 2. If he is playing 3+, taking them down to 2 in the brood should be enough (assuming you're facing the kind of Infantry that I talk about in this post).

 

Neurothrope & Zoanthrope: Buff units with some Smite on the side. You're going to need mass firepower or luck to take these down, because between the number of wounds, the 3+ Invulnerable and the Neurothrope healing they're a tough nut to crack. They're not the most dangerous unit in the world because they're slow and you can manipulate their threat somewhat by forcing them to Smite what you want, but like all Tyranid Psykers they have good buff potential. I tend to find I mostly ignore these until later in the game, not because I want to, but because like the Tervigon they need a lot of firepower (or luck) to take down which is needed elsewhere. Pretty much everything I said about the Tervigon applies to these, with the exceptions that they're easier to hide and have no special affinity for Termagants.

 

N.B., they can Fly. This was a surprise to both me and my Tyranid opponent, so don't get caught out by a savvy Nid player. The two most relevant parts of this is their ability to manipulate LoS for Smite by Flying (floating) onto high vantage points and their ability to give zero s about anything trying to tie them up in melee. They'll just Fly out of melee, over your models and continue doing what they do because their psychic powers aren't stopped by Falling Back. If you're going into melee with them, do it to kill, not tar pit.

 

Hive Tyrant: You've probably all faced this thing so there's not much to say here. It does everything and as a result is expensive. It's tough, but not to the level of a lot of other Tyranid Monsters and because it has 12 wounds it's targetable despite being a Character. It has decent medium or long ranged firepower, but more for causing a few extra wounds/finishing something off rather than dominating the shooting phase. Also, Synapse, Psyker and good in melee, with all that entails.

 

I've found that my opponent has kept it back until late game, because he doesn't want me prioritising it early on and taking out a large chunk of his army. When it does come to late game though, if this thing can get to you mostly unscathed you're in for a world of hurt because attrition generally means you don't have the ideal tools to deal with it. As a result, although it's a high threat piece, it's about middle of my threat list. Less of a priority than the ranged powerhouses but more of a priority than the support units.

 

It's worth noting that I've faced a non-winged version with The Miasma Cannon and no Tyrant Guard. Winged or guarded versions will have different considerations.

 

Carnifex: I know it's a meme, but these really have been distractions. Something I've killed because they were getting too close but not something I concentrate on. Their offensive potential is ok, good even if they can get to the perfect target. However, they've not been a massive worry for me. I've only ever faced them individually (my priority might change if there was multiple on the board) so they're not too tough to take down. Basically, a cheap Dreadnought. The melee version is nasty, if you let it get to where it wants to be. The ranged version has solid firepower, but given some of the other ranged units Tyranids have it's low on the "Oh crap!" scale. For me they've been medium threats because I've only ever faced one per game.

 

Trygon: AKA the Termagant tube train. Sounds like an exaggeration, but honestly whatever has popped up alongside the Trygon has been more of a worry than the Trygon itself. It's not that it's not dangerous, it is, but only in melee. It can semi-reliably make the charge when it comes up from its tunnels (8", because it will have Adrenal Glands and probably a Command Re-Roll), but you do have some say over where it can come up and what it can kill by blocking off real estate. It's been another medium threat to me, sometimes dying before it does anything (other than deliver its friends) but with the caveat that you should be aware it's coming and play accordingly. Also, it's threat level varies depending on what the Tyranid player pairs with it. I've faced it with Hormagaunts (the idea was for them to eat Overwatch for the Trygon - failed miserably), Tyranid Warriors (decent, but not a huge threat) and Termagants (this is the nasty one - see Termagant entry).

 

Tyrannofex: Specifically, the Rupture Cannon version. This thing will eat your vehicles if you let it. It has fantastic long range, anti-vehicular firepower. Don't be shocked when it reliably one shots a Rhino-chassis/Dreadnought a turn, or takes a massive chunk out of your Land Raider. I've even faced it with a Baneblade and taken a pounding, enough damage to put the tank down to BS5+. In addition, it has enough shots (3/6, depending on whether it moved), AP and multi-damage to be a threat to small, elite Infantry. Units like Terminators, Centurions, Aggressors, Hellblasters and even Devastators do not want to be shot by it. While it's firepower is wasted on stuff like Tactical Squads and Intercessors, our more expensive Infantry that packs a lot of power into a small number of models will suffer. What it has in ranged power, it lacks in subtlety. It wants to sit still and shoot you at long range, moving greatly hampers its firepower. It doesn't suffer any negatives to moving and shooting due to Bio-tank, but it does halve its firepower when it moves because of Weapon Beast (can fire twice if it doesn't move).

 

When dealing with this, priority number 1 is of course to kill it asap, preferably before it kills your long ranged anti-tank (you aren't killing this with your anti-infantry, it's too far back and too tough). Secondary goal is to stay out of its LoS completely with anything you care about, tertiary being to force it to move to shoot what it wants. It's average in melee (for a Monster) and can't shoot when Falling Back, so tying it up in melee is an option. Stopping it from shooting because your cheap Land Speeder decided ramming speed was a valid tactic is both amusing for you and vexing for a Tyranid player, so bear in mind that killing it isn't the only way to neutralise it.

 

N.B. Unlike the Guard & Eldar FAQs, the Tyranid FAQ mentions nothing about its ability to shoot twice needing to target the same unit. This is annoying because not only does it allow a lucky Tyranid player to bag two different targets a turn, but it's also inconsistent rules writing. Prior to the FAQ we used to house rule that it had to shoot the same target with both shots as we expected the FAQ to bring it in line with Fire Prisms and Leman Russ Battle Tanks. Unfortunately, that's not doable now as the FAQ has proved us wrong. Also of note is that it gets to shoot all its weapons twice, unlike the Russ or Prism which can only fire their turret/main weapon twice. Our (and Chaos) Predators get some version of this rule when?

 

Hive Guard: I hate this unit. Alongside the Tyrannofex they're the thing that's making my life a nightmare when I get in firefights with Tyranids. I've only faced the Impaller Cannon version, a medium anti-tank unit. Their weapons aren't too bad stat-wise, two shots at 36" range (Heavy so normally not moving - more on this in a bit) Str 8, AP -2 and D 2. Also, one of the few BS 3+ units in a Tyranid army. What really sets them apart is that they ignore LoS and Cover. Literally nothing is safe if these things can get it into range. They aren't going to nuke vehicles like a Tyrannofex (ok, they will nuke Land Speeders, but you know what I mean) but they'll consistently put wounds on them no matter where you go to hide. The only safe place is out of range, which is made all the harder by Onslaught letting them move, advance and fire their Heavy weapons without penalty. They also synergise fantastically with the Single-Minded Annihilation stratagem, letting them shoot a second time (at a different target if they want). Enough shots to deal with our Infantry or Vehicles, I would say these things are a priority target, but you must get to them first. That's why I generally go after the Tyrannofex before these - at least it's willing to have a stand-up fight.

 

When dealing with them you have three options (I don't consider the Nid player being an idiot who exposes them an option). Firstly, you can hit them with your own LoS ignoring models. From experience, I can tell you Whirlwind Castellan and Thunderfires won't cut it. You're firing at T 5, W 3 with an effective 3+ save (they will be in Cover and our LoS ignoring weapons don't ignore Cover). The Whirlwind Vengeance is an option, it's Str and AP would be enough to get some wounds through. I only have a Castellan though, so I haven't tried it out. I'm sure there's also some funky FW LoS ignoring models, but in all honesty, I haven't read the rules for most FW models yet. Your second option is dropping in near them and opening up with everything you've got. Inceptors are fantastic for this. Even the Assault Bolter equipped squad will do a decent chunk of damage (make sure you don't let them have Cover) while the Plasma Exterminator equipped squad will tear them a new . The tricky part is, of course, finding the space to make the drop. A good Tyranid player is going to have his Hive Guard out of LoS but central in his army, letting them get the best range (36" in all directions), Synapse/Psychic support and plenty of padding from other units to stop you getting into position to deal with them. You might need to use other units shooting to try and make a hole for your Inceptors to come down. A bad Tyranid player will have them on a flank, often unsupported and ripe for death from above. Bad Tyranid players need to be punished, preferably with volleys of bolt and plasma fire. Your third option is the same as the Tyrannofex. Hive Guard have nothing that lets them shoot when Falling Back, so getting something fast into melee with them as soon as you can will significantly cut down on their shooting.

 

Hive Fleet Adaptations: I've only faced Leviathan’s Synaptic Imperative. There's not much to say here, other than it's really tilting when your opponent has a hot streak on his dice and you fail to kill something you should have easily taken out. Essentially lets them ignore a sixth of the wounds you do, adding to their already superior attrition so take it into consideration when deciding on target priority for your finite ranged attacks. I haven't faced any other Hive Fleet yet, but Jormungandr’s Tunnel Networks would add similar attrition value while Kronos’ Bio-Barrage would give Hive Guard and Tyrannofex a notable increase in firepower. It might do something for other units from time to time, but because most of them are constantly moving wouldn't apply very often.

 

Army Special Rules: In past editions, Synapse & Instinctive Behaviour have been stones around a Tyranid players waist while Shadow in the Warp has been so pitiful I only ever remembered it existed when I was moaning about how bad it was. Honestly though, I think the pendulum has swung too far in the other direction this edition. Synapse is powerful at 12" and Instinctive Behaviour is so easy to keep up at 24" with a minor penalty if the Tyranid player somehow screws up and lets a unit get out of range. We know full well the power of horde armies that ignore Morale and given how hard it is to root all the Synapse creatures out of a Tyranid horde they're effectively immune to Morale for most of a game. Shadow in the Warp is also very powerful, the combination of its 18" range and plentiful Deny the Witch attempts in Tyranid lists means they shut down the opponent’s psychic game very effectively. What this means for us, is that we should expect to never get Brucie bonus casualties from Morale, accept that Instinctive Behaviour is an irrelevant rule 99% of the time and realise that any game plan that relies on our Psychic powers is going to, more than likely, fail.

 

Stratagems: Going to be honest, I've not seen many. I tend to face Command Re-Roll and Single-Minded Annihilation spam most of the time. That's hardly surprising, given that Command Re-Roll is a bread and butter stratagem for everyone and Single-Minded Annihilation is THE stratagem for ranged Tyranids. Scorch Bugs, Rapid Regeneration and Pathogenic Slime have also made appearances. We all know what Command Re-Roll does. The one noteworthy thing that I've found so far is that when combined with Adrenal Glands it lets Tyranids get in cheeky charges on the turn they arrive. For me it's been the Trygon coming up out of its tunnels and immediately charging. It's not a totally reliable tactic, I think it's still only around 50% (re-rollable 8 on two dice), but within the range where we should take it into account. Single-Minded Annihilation is straight forward but it's vital we account for it. Given the models I face (as listed above) I can expect every turn that the Tyranid player has enough CPs (2+) to face either the Termagants or Hive Guard firing twice. Usually Hive Guard. When considering casualty predictions and moving accordingly in your turn, make sure you take this increased firepower into account.

 

Scorch Bugs and Pathogenic Slime are both similar in that they increase the firepower of a unit, though in this case just the damage rather than rate of fire. Again, take it into account when you’re doing casualty predictions. Scorch Bugs can dramatically increase the damage Termagants can do (though it only affects their Fleshborers) to a unit while Pathogenic Slime will usually be seen on a Tyrannofex when it shoots at something with a lot of wounds. That stratagem is the reason my Baneblade took such a battering before I'd even had a turn when I was using Astra Millitarum against our 'Nid player.**

 

I also theorise that Power of the Hive Mind and Digestive Denial would be excellent choices in the kind of Tyranid list I'm considering here, one to give a boost to Smite spam and the other to significantly increase the Tyranids firepower by removing a chunk of available Cover from the opposing army. Something we should consider, though I'm hesitant to comment too much as I haven't faced it (probably because our Tyranid player can't get that far through the stratagem list without spaffing his CPs on re-rolls and double shots).

 

N.B. Pathogenic Slime is Monsters only while Single-Minded Annihilation is Infantry only. The more you know.

 

Psychic Powers: I've probably downplayed Smite in the above text. While individually Tyranid Smite isn't bad, they can bring it in numbers that we can't match (as Marines, not as Imperial Soup). The Mortal Wounds will quickly add up when you're facing multiple Psykers and they're using Psychic Scream (their not-Smite power). Catalyst and The Horror both increase their durability (The Horror in particular, is disgusting with Malanthropes/Venomthropes) while Onslaught makes certain units *cough* Hive Guard *cough* way better because of the large increase in threat range. It can also allow melee stuff to get a cheeky long-range charge by allowing them to pretend to be Genestealers (move, advance, charge).

 

Because of the durability of the Psyker unit's that I've faced, I've given up on trying to kill them. There's just too much other stuff that is more damaging, when I concentrate on the Psykers to drop their buffing potential, I get too far behind on the damage exchange. In other words, if I concentrate on the Psykers I lose too many key units to the 'Nids firepower and it goes downhill from there. I've found I need to alpha strike some of those ranged threats asap and relegate the buffing units to secondary targets of opportunity. Taking that into account, I've been upping my anti-psyker game. More deny attempts (Inquisitor, The Santic Halo) with some negative psychic modifiers (Culexus, Sisters of Silence) has helped a bit, but it's not enough to neutralise their psychic phase completely.

 

TLDR: Ranged Tyranids can out-shoot and out psychic Marines. We just don't have the kind of firepower/psychic power to compete. All Tyranids can out-last Marines, but then that's no shock as we already know Marines are terrible at attrition. The best tactic is surgical alpha strikes taking out key units so that you can (hopefully) survive the retaliation. The ability to hit them on your terms is key, because if you just sit back and try to gunline you will be in for a rough ride. Just like Astra Millitarum (and in previous editions, T'au) you don't want to play their game and out-gunline them. What makes Nids more threatening than either of these two armies is that they can also play a melee horde, completely changing what you need to do (and in some cases the units in your list) to win. Don't try to over-power them with your Psykers, instead concentrate on denial, through debuffs and a decent number of Deny the Witch attempts.

 

 

* assuming Match Play rules.

 

** in case anyone is interested, revenge was had when the Baneblade was repaired to fully operational, removed the Tyrannofex's body from its head, plastered bits of Tervigon all over its Termagant babies with Overwatch and ran over a Hive Tyrant that tried to destroy it in melee and just about survived to the end of the game (3 wounds left). Millitarum have an easier time with Tyranids than Marines.

 

 

 

[justicarius6]

Excellent overview there, T'chobbit and it matches the experience I had in the one and only (albeit fluffy and limited) game I had against Tyrranids. The shooting the double-fire tyrannofexes do almost left me gobsmacked coupled with the amounts of smite the rest of the army just threw out almost as an afterthought. Flyrants are a serious threat now with their ability to deepstrike their short range guns right into your firing lines and then escape any countercharge and you're totally right in that Synapse is brutally overpowered with the fearless hordes and Instinctive Behaviour is completely trivial.

 

As for counter tactics, well psychically you're looking at only really being able to count on locking down powers with denies due to Shadow of The Warp and anti-psychic strategem and you really have to brutalise their big shooters early to stop the high amount of firepower thrown out. A good counter charge unit ready to face or tie up the Trygon/gaunt combo is also essential.

[Toxichobbit]

Synapse isn't overpowered. Tyranids have always had morale immunity and anything less than 12" would really hurt their larger units. Having Gaunts tied to being within 6" of a Synapse creature would really cut down on any dynamic movement with that part of the army and probably push people away from using the smaller Tyranid creatures altogether (with the exception of Genestealers). While this would make it easier for us to beat them, it'd also make the amy more one dimensional and as a result more boring to face.

 

On the other hand, I do think that Shadow in the Warp and Instinctive Behaviour are too good. Shadow in the Warp is crippling for Psykers and easy to apply due to the range. It's not unusual for me to see it covering most of the board by turn 2. As a result, I've dropped Psykers from my lists altogether. They're just a waste of points when they're so completely dominated by the Tyranids Smite spam + Shadow in the Warp and IMO anything that makes opponents completely ignore entire sections of their armies is bad for the game. Instinctive Behaviour is more or less an irrelevant rule. They probably could have dropped it altogether as Syanpse is way more of a concern for Tyranids. It's never come up in the 15+ games I've played against Tyranids and from what I've heard from other players (including Tyranid players) it's the same for them.

 

What this has meant for me so far is that, as I said above, I've massively cut down on the Psykers in my lists, I don't bother trying to shoot Synapse anymore because it's loss only affects a limited number of units (single model units i.e. all their Monsters don't care) and I don't bother checking for Instinctive Behaviour anymore. Loosing Psykers hasn't actually hurt that much, because I've found Librarians to be an inferior choice to other HQ options anyway. Like I said earlier, just don't expect any extra casualties from Morale, just like you didn't expect to get lucky and cause Tyranid units to flee in previous editions. It's only really Gaunts anyway and they're way less egregious than Conscripts were a couple of months ago.

[Captain Idaho]

I'm thinking a Tyranids shooting list can do with some teleporting Terminators and Drop Pod troops remedies! Trade some fire with your supporting elements by all means, but don't shy from hitting a Tyrannofex with a Terninator squad in assault.

[Toxichobbit]

I'm thinking a Tyranids shooting list can do with some teleporting Terminators and Drop Pod troops remedies! Trade some fire with your supporting elements by all means, but don't shy from hitting a Tyrannofex with a Terninator squad in assault.

 

Tried that. I dropped in a Terminator Assault Squad (3xTH/SS. 2xLC) backed up by a Captain in Terminator Armour (SB, WmGL, PF) to deal with the Hive Guard & Tyrannofex. The Tyrannofex didn't make it through the shooting phase due to Devastators getting a second turn of shooting at it. I didn't attempt to charge the Terminators because they'd have had to go through a crater - needed an 11 and I didn't want to give a free turn of Overwatch. The Terminators lost three guys to the Hive Guard (Single-Minded Annihilation) and the last two to Overwatch, but the Captain made it in. Hive Guard are pretty pants in melee so he didn't have any trouble dealing with them. It was ok, but I decided it's just too many points to try and take out Hive Guard and haven't run it again.

 

It's important to remember that you're likely to take a round of shooting before you can get the Terminators into melee. The Hive Guard can put out 12 shots (minimum unit) at Str8, AP-2, D3. They're competant Terminator killers given that they're a good 100 points cheaper than a Terminator Squad. Storm shields should have helped more but dice happen. Without storm shields I wouldn't be confident putting Terminators into range of Hive Guard without other targets to confuse target priority. The Tyrannofex didn't get to shoot the Terminators, but if it had they would have vanished. I guess it would at least have given the rest of my list a brief breather.

 

I think you're on the right track though. Against ranged Tyranids we need to get up close and use our versatility to be competant in ranged and melee. Even a cheap Assault Squad would do the trick against Hive Guard and it's much less devastating if the Hive Guard shoot them up first. If the Assault Marines can draw out a use of Single-Minded Annihilation and soak a turn of Hive Guard shooting, I'd be happy with them. Doubly so if they can get into melee next turn and tie the Hive Guard up. Inceptors are better for the job because they can get some kills in before the Hive Guard get to shoot back. Plasma Inceptors would probably wipe them out, but even assault bolters will do some nice damage.

 

The Tyrannofex I'm less worried about. It's powerful and tough, but it's just a tank analogue. You can deal with it like you would a Predator, Russ, Fire Prism or Hammerhead. Nothing we haven't seen before or can't deal with. Just have to respect it's firepower and not assume that the Tyranid shooting phase is the joke it was in previous editions.

 

Edit: I should also mention that despite the amount of Smite and Monsters in the lists that I'm facing, there's still plenty of Gaunts. In the above example the Hive Guard were on a flank with the Tyrannofex and only a Prime for support. Not good positioning by the Nid player. Had they been played where they should have been, more centrally placed, there's no way you'd get through all the screening units and into melee with them. It's a conundrum, you want to be able to take them out asap but played well you'll never get LoS to them and they're surrounded by plenty of Tyranids taking up real estate and making it hard to find space for a drop unit.

Edited December 8, 2017 by Toxichobbit

[Prot]

Yea I hate the Hive Guard as well. It’s incredible the lengths I’ve gone to cut their heads off with deep strike before they rip me apart.

[Captain Idaho]

Devastator squads should account for a unit too. Consider a Devastator squad with lascannons/missile launchers, Armourium Cherub and Signum should be able to kill 3 Hive Guard.

[Kallas]

Devastator squads should account for a unit too. Consider a Devastator squad with lascannons/missile launchers, Armourium Cherub and Signum should be able to kill 3 Hive Guard.

The biggest issue in dealing with Hive Guard is that they ignore LOS, so they'll most likely be jammed up behind a nice piece of cover.

 

Plasma Inceptors seem like a reasonably good unit for killing, or at least crippling, them though.

[Toxichobbit]

Devastator squads should account for a unit too. Consider a Devastator squad with lascannons/missile launchers, Armourium Cherub and Signum should be able to kill 3 Hive Guard.

 

Fraid not. If the Devastators ever kill a single Hive Guard then the Tyranid player is playing really badly or something has gone very very wrong. I use that exact unit (occasionally with one heavy weapon different) in quite a few games. I got the kill on the Hive Guard with Devastators the first time my opponent used them because he didn't take into account their ability to ignore LoS and placed them as you would a traditional heavy support squad - in cover. That was the only time he's ever let me get a shot off with my Devastators, never mind a kill. Even a half decent Tyranid player will keep them out of LoS. If they want, the Hive Guard can just one round the Devastators with ease and there's almost nothing you can do about it (staying out of range is the only option).

[Prot]

Devastator squads should account for a unit too. Consider a Devastator squad with lascannons/missile launchers, Armourium Cherub and Signum should be able to kill 3 Hive Guard.

 

Hive guard have indirect. They're never in plain sight.

 

Gutting them is incredibly difficult because it means going after them with something that is 1) Probably not going to get in proper range due to cheap meat shields, or 2) going to die for its efforts. 

 

I found a flyer can do this if my opponent is really not paying attention (leaves a big gap for my flyer base).  But Nids are not a great army to take flyers against overall. It's a gamble.

Edited December 30, 2017 by Prot

[Captain Idaho]

Yes I forgot that.

 

Well at least we know we can blat them if they ever do step out of that building etc.

[Prot]

I’m probably facing them again shortly. I don’t really like list tailoring plus I can’t guarantee the game anyway. But one of the two Nid guys I know wanted a shot at me yesterday but I was busy busting up some Dark Angels, however I promised him a game soon.

 

So I was examining what goes wrong is my deep,strike component which is usually lead by my buddy Calgar tends to get overwhelmed because my gunline camt properly close the gap. Ironically my last win against Nids was with Grey Knights which play far more dynamic, or many be just less static is a better way of looking at it.

 

With this in mind I have changed my all comers list to keep Calgar and my normal over indulgence of Primaris, but this time my gunline will be aggressive and not easily overwhelmed. I plan on anchoring it with a Primaris Captain advancing with shooting infantry and it will be flanked by a Kheres Contemptor and the new easy fit HoG Redemptor.

 

This time I will be hopefully closing the gap between Calgar and the gunline with some serious close combat assistance. This is one of my first lists not using a Primaris Lieutenant. I just couldn’t fit him and I always use Tigurius as well.

 

We’ll see how this goes.

[Captain Idaho]

It's a tricky one because any deep striking component of a list is either isolated quickly and should be treated as a throwaway missile, or an added bit of pressure combined with the whole list.

 

I imagine a fast moving army could really enjoy longer lasting deep strikers.

[Toxichobbit]

Will you be writing up a report for it Prot? I'm interested to see how it goes. I'm playing aganst Nids again on Thurs. I've been creeping towards a more mechanised list because I've actually found being proactive in forcing engagements has worked better than holding back as a gunline, which is exactly the opposite of what you'd think when facing Nids. I'm also trialing an 8th Company drop component in my lists at the moment, so I'll see how that goes for dealing with the Nid back field.

[Brother Captain Ed]

I'm also interested. Not only because Prot writes good battle reports and is an excellent player, but because the concept doesn't make sense to me.

 

It seems like a Bad Idea to move the battleline *closer* to the horde of gribblie claws and teeth.

 

But, as stated, Prot knows what he's about. Maybe I just don't see it.

[Toxichobbit]

It's understandable that the concept doesn't make sense if you are thinking of Tyranids as a melee army, which to be fair is what you'd expect of them. But that's not what we're talking about. We're talking about ranged Tyranids. Think of them as six legged Guard and moving closer suddenly makes much more sense.

[Prot]

Yea the Nids are really a medium to short range shooty army with speed and some elite fighting units.

 

People think of deep strike in such extreme terms sometimes. It’s an amazing gap filler to anchor a support rendezvous. Scouts are an excellent focal point for making this two tiered attack imo. I can’t imagine a list without them, they do this so well while creating a denial bubble for your opponents. This gives me breathing space and an anchor for mid ground stances in setting up and steering board control which is paramount in my wins against Nids. This is where (I find) the ultra gunline can falter.

 

Seriously. I’m flattered by the compliments, but I’m in NO way a great player. I just think I’m fortunate enough to play a lot with a few groups of players of varying skill levels and army types. I just lucky to be exposed to a few play styles.

 

On the batreps.... I’m truly sorry guys. I’ve batrepped my other games, but work has been crazy on top of the fact my Ultramarines were sold (again) on eBay recently. I’m restarting them yet again from scratch. I hate doing batreps with unpainted models! Plus what I own limits my lists.

 

I have a few games lined up heading into the weekend, hopefully one is against one of the Nid guys. (I did batrep two of the last Nid games I had in the Grey Knight forums).

 

Thanks for the kind words guys :tu:

[Captain Idaho]

It IS A bad idea to move your army closer to Tyranids if your army is a gunline.

 

I advocate armies that are less focussed on a single playstyle and more balanced anyway, simply because rock paper scissors situations like this or just plain old fun. After all, lining up your guns and just shooting every turn ain't as fun as moving to position, engaging in a firefight then pulling bag slightly to lure an opponent onto an objective so our assault force can charge them...

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I been using a squad of three assault Centurions and wow they are great versus horde if used properly plus they can wreck monsters too.

[Prot]

Agreed. I haven't used them in a while, but since 8th dropped I thought they became significantly more useful. There's just so many options now I find myself  often overlooking that unit. (plus I really prefer them in a transport.)

[Captain Idaho]

Assault Centurions are effective once in combat so need a Storm Raven or Land Raider. Their firepower is unrivalled.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I have been using a land raider (need the lascannons).

[Prot]

I've not been able to play the Nids with my Uitra's since my last post however I have been using a dual hard hitting squad of Plasma Inceptors and Bolt Inceptors. Marneus comes down for the re-rolls. It's a very hard hitting combo but depending on the opponent I would say my greatest difficulty with this set up is the lack of survivability. We are talking about a 7 model 'feature' that is quite vulnerable.

 

I feel like it needs another buffer. This is getting expensive though. I need to figure out if it's worth going one step further with something like Reivers, or much further with something like Cataphractii.

[Toxichobbit]

Funnily enough, I've assembled and begun painting an Inceptor Squad with plasma exterminators to go alongside my current Inceptors with assault bolters. I'm hoping that dropping the two down together will give me the firepower to significantly disrupt enemy back lines or reinforce any broken points of my lines. I'm not dropping Calgar with them though, I think I'll just go for a cheap Captain with a jump pack. Not as effective but it does at least allow me to safely supercharge the plasma if I need to. Then again, given that they're unlikely to survive return firepower it might be worth just dropping the Captain and spending 1cp on Scions of Guilliman instead. I was considering a blocking unit with them as well, but I'm not sure it's worth it. The Inceptors can still be shot regardless of a blocking unit and it's adding more points into a reserve force. When I next get chance for a game (maybe tomorrow, probably not for a couple of weeks though) I'll see how they do and think about adding a blocker if necessary.