Heavy Flamers

[Major_Gilbear]

I'm gearing up for a start on a Catachan army, and I have about 6 heavy flamer models from previous editions of the game (the metal ones, as the whole army is made up of the classic metal figures).

 

I think these are particularly thematic for Catachans, but at 17pts each and only purchasable at one per squad (not to mention that they are only available to BS3+ Command and Veteran squads), they seem... Somewhat lacklustre?

 

I want to use the models, and would rather include them as heavy flamers (Rule Of Cool and all that); but for a 60pts saving in counting them as regular flamers, I can get quite a few other things from the codex instead.

 

Has/does anyone use them in their squads? Are they usually worth it over regular flamers outside of clutch/lucky situations? Or should I just make two SWS out of them and count them as really awesome-looking regular flamers?

[Guardsman Bob]

Once long ago when veteran squads first came out I did the whole conversion thing with plastic Necromunda shotguns on the Catchans. When your already bringing three flamers why not bring a Heavy Flamer as well? Double chocolate dipped in fudge with more chocolate syrup on top.

 

I don’t know about 8th. It will really depends how much of a need for AA fire there is. That or if things really do get out of control with hit penalties. Either way it would be on a Vet Squad embarked in a Valkyrie since the ranges really punish for being out of position.

Edited November 9, 2017 by Guardsman Bob

[duz_]

Yeh they are expensive

It depends on how you plan to run the squads? If you have the points to spare I can see them going well in a Melta vet squad

Possibly part a burninator command squad too

 

I've only concerted only of my Mordians to a heavy flamer from 7th. I was actually pondering today if I needed more. I think your post answered my question. Probably not regular flamers do a decent enough job in this edition.

[Altasmurf]

I've used a vet squad with 3 flamers and a heavy flamer a couple times. They're always followed by a platoon commander and either in a valk or chimera. Every game they surprise me with the damage they do, especially the heavy. Wound marines on a 3 and reducing their save by 1 is worth it.

 

Now I know their are more efficient units in the game but guard are so cheap you spend on some more fun units, unless of course you're waac. So if your meta isn't crazy and you like to have some fun, then go for the heavy flamer. Paired with the catachan order it's actually pretty good.

[OnboardG1]

Carry Straken with them in their transport along with the local Vicar and then charge after you flame for the full Catachan experience.

[Major_Gilbear]

I also note that heavy flamers are "Heavy" rather then "Assault" like the regular flamers, but they still hit automatically anyway which seems to totally mitigate the weapon class' normal drawbacks. ...With respect to troops, is it an irrelevance, or am I missing something here?

[Harrowmaster]

You can't advance and fire a heavy flamer

[Major_Gilbear]

Of course, thank you! There I was scouring Doctrines and Stratagems and whatnot thinking something else interacted with that keyword.

[CoffeeGrunt]

Yeah it stunts Tallarn a bit as a result, as dropping Heavy weapons means you can scurry all over the place. 

 

I was debating a Veteran team with Flamers, Shotguns and a Heavy Flamer in a Flamera for anti-infantry goodness, maybe with Bring It Down as well to get those Wounds through, but tbh it seemed a bit weak for the cost and the Heavy Flamer would have hindered their movement and cost a fair amount for what feels like a modest improvement over a standard Flamer.

[Major_Gilbear]

So far then, it seems that my initial suspicions were about right then:

 

- Use a couple for flavour if points permit, and hope they occasionally do something good/fun.

 

- Otherwise run them as awesome-looking regular flamers.

 

- They are perfect upgrades if using power levels rather than points, in they they are worth having for "free" but aren't going to skew games.

 

It's a shame that the points are so much higher than a regular flamer, and that the Catachan Doctrine doesn't allow re-rolling of flamer and heavy flamer shots on troops. That latter part especially seems like a missed opportunity  to me. Ah well.

 

 

Now I know their are more efficient units in the game but guard are so cheap you spend on some more fun units, unless of course you're waac.

 

No, I'm not a WAAC player. I have to admit that it gets a bit tiring to hear somebody mention this in every thread asking about a unit or weapon.

 

And the #1 reason I asked about the heavy flamers is because for the cost difference between six regular flamers vs six heavy flamers, I could have a whole other squad, complete with upgrades. As you say, the Guard units are cheap!

 

I don't mind some inefficiency, I don't mind some units being less competitive as long as they're cool enough (I have two squads of metal Ogryn with ripper guns...), and I don't even mind some options being a bit corner-case. It's all fun, and I enjoy trying to make less optimal choices pull their weight.

 

Anyway, we're planning to use power levels for getting our forces together, but I am rather aware that PL breaks down quickly if lots of powerful and expensive upgrades are taken (unless you both take about the same level of upgrades). Therefore, if heavy flamers in troops squads are points expensive but not all that efficient/great, then they seem like an ideal upgrade in this situation - worthwhile without being game-breaking. But of course, to assess that, you end up using regular points which sort of defeats the idea of PL...

[OnboardG1]

I think the Catachan stratagem lets you reroll flamer shots. I don't have my dex on hand as my phone is too bloody full to carry around my enhanced edition.

[Major_Gilbear]

The Catachan Stratagem is that they set traps which affect units that charge them.

 

The Catachan Doctrine lets you re-roll one dice when determining the number of shots a random-shot weapon gets, and is vehicle-only.

 

Re-rolling the number of flamer shots in infantry squads would have been amazingly thematic, but alas they didn't get that.

 

 

Edit: Yes, they do in fact get the flamer re-rolls, via the regiment's special order on page 86.

Edited November 6, 2017 by Major_Gilbear

[Harrowmaster]

Doesn't the catachan order let units re-roll the dice for flamer shots and give them ignores cover?

[CoffeeGrunt]

Yeah I was gunna say. The Catachan Order is what you want there. Poor GW. They give you the option, you miss or forget it, and suddenly it's all about how they've taken away from you like the tricksy buggers they are.

 

Might as well blame Matt Ward while we're at it. :P

[Zectz]

Something to consider is a heavy flamer in a vet squad doesn't use up/prevent a special weapon slot. Whereas in a command squad it does.

[Major_Gilbear]

Aha, found it on page 86 - "Burn them out". My mistake, I apologise!

 

Even works on heavy flamers too.

[CoffeeGrunt]

Something to consider is a heavy flamer in a vet squad doesn't use up/prevent a special weapon slot. Whereas in a command squad it does.

 

Which is good, but a Vet squad with triple Flamers and one Heavy is 98pts for some rather short-ranged and vulnerable dudes.

[Guardsman Bob]

Yeah I was gunna say. The Catachan Order is what you want there. Poor GW. They give you the option, you miss or forget it, and suddenly it's all about how they've taken away from you like the tricksy buggers they are.

 

Might as well blame Matt Ward while we're at it. :P

Some time ago Ward did say he was returning to GW. Unseen in nameless recognition codexes he may be doing his naughty things and we’d never know... just got the chills there.

[librisrouge]

Can I recommend two command squads (assuming you have two officers... ) with three flamers and a heavy flamer each, with a commander in a Valkyrie?

 

Roll up, be a big nasty target (buying time for the rest of the army if need be), pop out next turn and burn it ALL!

[CoffeeGrunt]

Or three such Command Squads?