Question about Sanguinius' doom

[Sawtooth]

I am horribly out of the loop on Horus Heresy books. I know that Sanguinius had some sense that he was going to die via his psychic abilities, but lacked specific details. I was just curious how much he actually knew, and whether he shared this with any in his Legion? I believe I've read about him sharing it with some of his brothers. I had an idea to incorporate the fatalism into a successor chapter, but wanted to see how feasible it is that any of his Legion would know.

[The_son_of_Dorn]

You have raised a valid enquiry. Did Sang get a sorta vibe before H even turned I wonder. I have not yet read/come across any material that would denote or heavily imply he was aware of his (seemingly essential) sacrifice. Just snippets about how he masked his own legions genetic flaws. Maybe he has visions but dismissed them as a symptom of his genetic "flaw" rather than invest any real stock into them.

[The Unseen]

At the point were at in the Horus Heresy series, I don't think anyone else knows?

Could be wrong.

 

Doesn't really matter, as part of the Blood Angels legends from those times is that Sanguinius knew he was going to his death, so they and the successors know about it as of 40k, which means a successor based off that would be well within reason.

 

Edit: if I remember correctly, his visions turned dark sometime after the Heresy started.

Edited November 6, 2017 by The Unseen

[m_r_parker]

Reading Pharos at the moment (yes, I'm very far behind), and ... spoiler warning:

 

Sanguinius had visions of his own death at the hands of Horus, even to the point of seeing through another's eyes and seeing his own dead body on the Vengeful Spirit. This was during the Imperium Secondus arc, after the events of Calth but before the siege of Terra. During Sanguinius' duel with Konrad it's implied that Konrad knows that both Sanguinius will be killed by Horus, and that he will himself be killed by an agent of the Emperor, to the point where he tries to goad Sanguinius into killing him and preventing that future from happening.

 

[Indefragable]

The HH novel series:

Seem to suggest that Sanguinius and Horus are best buds until H’s fall. Sanguinius was a pretty jovial Guy as well, apparently, being shown as the friend of all at Nikea and such. However, we get a taste of the depths of his profound sadness and rage at Murder (the planet/campaign).

 

Piecing things together from like 50 books, it seems that Sanguinius only started getting visions of his own fate after Signus Prime. Not only was his best bud’s treason revealed there, and you know, his boys had to punch out daemons that they didn’t even know existed, but also it was revealed about the whole you-may-lose-yourselves-to-Khorne-if-you’re-not-careful-because-of-Sanguinius’s bloodline thing. So Sanguinius was in a ...sour...mood for almost all of Imperium Secundus to say the least. At some point there he started to see and understand his destiny...

 

 

...and embrace it.

 

 

Does that help?

 

[TheRealMcCagh]

Ruinstorm Spoilers:

 

Sanguinius goes through his death scene thousands of times and is unable to change it. Eventually he finds a path that leads to him vanquishing Horus and becoming the hero of the Imperium, giving him hope that fate isn't actually set (a thought which terrifies Curze as he is shown all his fatalism is built on a lie). Later, he discovers that in order to beat Horus, he has to take Horus's spot as the Champion of Chaos, which would eventually bring about total destruction of the Imperium. He is then told that if he doesn't choose that path, not only will he die, but all his sons will suffer from the Black Rage as a result of his death. Ultimately he chooses to die and curse his sons, knowing they are strong enough to carry that burden.

 

It doesn't say if he knows specifically how he dies (like, Talon'd through the heart, Worldbreaker to the face) but since he goes through his fight scene multiple times, I'm inclined to think he tried different things every time but it all ended with his death.

[Frater Cornelius]

Ruinstorm Spoilers:

 

Sanguinius goes through his death scene thousands of times and is unable to change it. Eventually he finds a path that leads to him vanquishing Horus and becoming the hero of the Imperium, giving him hope that fate isn't actually set (a thought which terrifies Curze as he is shown all his fatalism is built on a lie). Later, he discovers that in order to beat Horus, he has to take Horus's spot as the Champion of Chaos, which would eventually bring about total destruction of the Imperium. He is then told that if he doesn't choose that path, not only will he die, but all his sons will suffer from the Black Rage as a result of his death. Ultimately he chooses to die and curse his sons, knowing they are strong enough to carry that burden.

 

It doesn't say if he knows specifically how he dies (like, Talon'd through the heart, Worldbreaker to the face) but since he goes through his fight scene multiple times, I'm inclined to think he tried different things every time but it all ended with his death.

 

http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/052/082/1240393095655.jpg

 

Touching

[Crimson Ghost IX]

My take on things I think from what I have read:

 

To add a bit:

 

He definately did not know Horus was going to turn prior to the event. He was duped later by an already fallen Horus into a trap to get him to fall as well.

He can see the future, but not everything. He is not omnipotent, but is informed of events to come. Sometimes those visions wither and fade as things change and are replaced.

Chaos increasingly uses this to attempt to manipulate him. Events beyond his control have momentum of their own etc.

It's all very complex, timey whimey, and chaotic. =)

 

More like he commonly sees what he turns his attention too, or is focused upon. Hence he had no clue about Horus until after the fall and that became the knowable possible/likely/set future. This gets into the whole attempting to control what is now fated and what is yet to be decided/affected to a better outcome and so forth.

More and more he has visions of things that could, but perhaps will not be because of his choices.

So he hopes to change the future chaos has wrought by his actions and searches for signs that this might yet be possible.

 

His visions can be very full of detail. He knows; and suffers the pain in deep detail, the wounds Horus may/will someday inflict on him etc.

During his duel with Night Haunter both were seeing the immediate future to one up each other in the fight as the future unfolded and changed by their choices and actions.

That neither killed the other because they were bound to other stronger more set in stone fates is heavily implied.

 

At least one of the BA librarians in Ruinstorm saw into Sanguinius's mind and witnessed his likely fateful fight with Horus as well.

He specifically decides at the end of Ruinstorm not to warn Azkaellon of what is likely to come. He still hopes to find a path to change events and rescue his sons from the black rage.

Telling him might make it hard reality so to speak. I expect he will warn them when things are set beyond his ability to affect further, but that has not happened yet in the series.

 

He also intends to save the soul of his formerly close brother Horus if he can, rescue the dreams of his father and basically everything from Chaos as much as he is able... to find the best worst outcome so to speak. But the shadows are closing in, and reality is getting quite dark no matter how he tries to change things. His burdens and those on his beloved sons  grow heavy and his time increasingly likely short.

 

Because he is Sanguinius... He now heads to Terra with his sons to face fate itself and rescue what he can still save. To stab at chaos and affect the grim darkness of the far future to the better as much as he possibly can etc.

 

In case you wondered.

It is the set fate of RG and the Ultramarines to open the way and hold it for Sanguinius to reach their father on Terra. There is no longer time to change things, there is no other way.

It is the fate of the Lion and the Dark Angels to take the war to Chaos and keep their forces / reinforcements from Terra. Also to diminish the ritual power bases hampering Terra.

 

This part of the story is now more or less on stage to the end of the series I'm thinking.

Hell of a good ride =)

 

Edited November 6, 2017 by Crimson Ghost IX

[Xenith]

Read 'The Master of Mankind' for some good info on how seeing the future works, what that does to a mind (The Emperor's) and their ability to influence it.

 

Sangy knew he would die, probably broad strokes no specific details. He knew he would die and went anyway, out of duty, which is the basis for a lot of the BA's mentality and belief.

 

The sense of fatalism is an underexplored one and a good idea for a successor. I'd look to other chapters like the Star Phantoms, and I think Mortifactors for chapters with similar outlooks.

[Blindhamster]

based on rainstorm, he suffers the same visions all his sons eventually suffer as part of the black rage. He sees the fight with horus in detail and knows he loses

[Sawtooth]

Thank you, some interesting input. I'm still curious how much his Legion knew, but I think I should grab some of the referenced books for myself. Is there anything you think is critical reading before Master of Mankind and Ruinstorm?

[Crimson Ghost IX]

The legion at large does not know what Sanguinius knows of what is to come at this point in the story yet I feel.

 

A librarian saw into Sanguinius' vision of him fighting Horus and being killed, but it was was covered quickly during a warp event and could come to nothing as far as rumours in the legion etc at this point. ie the librarian may or may not have taken it as anything more than a psychic assault etc.

 

I recommend most of the Horus Heresy series as good reading.

 

To catch the bulk of the Blood Angels arc so far and follow why and what is going on read these at mininmum in my opinion:

 

Book 21 : Fear to Tread, The Angel Falls. A must read for the story and background. Sanguinius is used as a character previously in the series as well, but this a good foundation here to work forward from.

 

Book 27 : The Unremembered Empire, Imperium Secundus (95% or more is not about the Blood Angels as I recall), but it does set Sanguinius up as Big E of Ultramar and sets up book 34,38. So...

 

Book 34 : Pharos , The Dying of the Light

Book 38 : Angels of Caliban, Emperor's and Slaves

 

Book 46 : Ruinstorm, Destiny Unwritten - An absolute MUST read in my opinion.

 

I am not saying these are the only good books in the series or anything close to like that. I am saying that these books will get you almost all the Blood Angels goodies illuminated if you already have a basic grounding in the events of the Heresy.

 

I wrote this up kinda quick, but think it's decent advice. Chime in if I am missing something HUGE folks.

Edited November 10, 2017 by Crimson Ghost IX

[Anamnesis]

The legion at large does not know what Sanguinius knows of what is to come at this point in the story yet I feel.

 

A librarian saw into Sanguinius' vision of him fighting Horus and being killed, but it was was covered quickly during a warp event and could come to nothing as far as rumours in the legion etc at this point. ie the librarian may or may not have taken it as anything more than a psychic assault etc.

 

I recommend most of the Horus Heresy series as good reading.

 

To catch the bulk of the Blood Angels arc so far and follow why and what is going on read these at mininmum in my opinion:

 

Book 21 : Fear to Tread, The Angel Falls. A must read for the story and background. Sanguinius is used as a character previously in the series as well, but this a good foundation here to work forward from.

 

Book 27 : The Unremembered Empire, Imperium Secundus (95% or more is not about the Blood Angels as I recall), but it does set Sanguinius up as Big E of Ultramar and sets up book 34,38. So...

 

Book 34 : Pharos , The Dying of the Light

Book 38 : Angels of Caliban, Emperor's and Slaves

 

Book 46 : Ruinstorm, Destiny Unwritten - An absolute MUST read in my opinion.

 

I am not saying these are the only good books in the series or anything close to like that. I am saying that these books will get you almost all the Blood Angels goodies illuminated if you already have a basic grounding in the events of the Heresy.

 

I wrote this up kinda quick, but think it's decent advice. Chime in if I am missing something HUGE folks.

 

Thanks for the list, i will explore this :)

Every blood angels fluff is good to read 

 

Cheers,

Anamnesis