Heavy Thunder Hammers

[MeltaRange]

Now that there are a few more FILTHY Xenos armies to get their codex, we've seen a bunch of new rules coming in and honestly there is quite a bit 'minus to hit' in the shooting phase stuff. (Alaitoc, Stygies VIII, Raven Guard, Vectored Engines, Conceal, The Horror, Malceptor/Venomthropes)   Not to mention the -1 to hit for being a flyer and other rules like Rangers and smoke launchers ; auto-cover rules like Shroudpsalm or Jormungandr trait; or invulnerable saves on shooting only (Knight's Ion Shield)

 

Has this caused anyone else to re-evaluate Kill Teams with Heavy Thunder Hammers?  Sure, they're already -1 to hit but so is the Lascannon if you move.  Lascannon on a Corvus for example is 5s to hit something with a single -1 and only gets 2 shots.

 

Pros

Unit cannot claim cover against melee attacks

Cannot stack -1 to hits against melee as often/reliably

2 attacks per 49pt model means that much more force can be applied to a single unit "per point"

Ignoring many of the rules above

Chaplain provides cheaper "re-roll all to hit" buff for melee

Fight in melee each round, not only in your turn

6 to wound is 6dmg

 

Cons (vs. Lascannon)

Str 8 means a ~7% less chance of wounding T8

Typical melee cons like speed/positioning, variable charge rolls, overwatch vs just shooting @ 48" range.

T4 3+ 1 wound model carrying the HTH.

Edited November 7, 2017 by MeltaRange

[Moostick]

There has been zero reason to ever take the HTH since the beginning of 8th. It just screams "do not take me". The only reasons to ever take one is to purposely handicap yourself or for laughs. Just take TH + something else.

 

It used to be worth it at S10 and auto kill on 6s in 7th, but now it has the exact same statline as a TH, can potentially do less D per hit, you give up your ranged weapon, can't get 3A, and it costs 10 pts more.

 

Keep the bolter or take a special pistol with the TH and you have more D potential while still costing less points. Can still shoot too.

[Mobius0288]

Kind of incorporating what both of you are saying, plus what I've seen in another thread, I've been looking at adding in melee. If I were to do it, I think it would be something like:

 

Vet Sgt: bolter/TH

Blackshield: bolter/TH

Vet: HTH (grenade spammer!)

Vet: bolter/? (meat shield?)

Vet: bolter/? (meat shield?)

 

For basic infantry situations, power mauls/axes across the whole squad would be adequate.

 

Adding anymore HTH gets expensive and I don't stay in melee for very long to justify a bunch of them. Delivery is the other consideration though... you need some sort of non-drop pod to reliably get them into close combat, where lascannons can just sit in the back and pester your opponent.

[Kargrym]

HTH, with the current profile, does not meet cost benefit. You have no gun and you are painfully fragile to get into range damage something that will get invulned away.

 

It would instantly be more worth the risk if there was a mortal wound component to it.

[MeltaRange]

I understand they are not optimal points wise but I just don't see another solution for things like Mechanicus Knights (rotate ion shields + use highest damage table despite # of wounds stratagem) and Alaitoc Flyers/Wave Serpent spam (vectored engines) - among other things.  The shooting debuffs are stacking up and against something like a Wave Serpent I'm becoming more and more of a fan of a 3x HTH unit.  

 

(I'm still going to model a bunch of em in the hopes that they become sick in the Codex :) )

[Aothaine]

First, if you get into melee with a eldar vehicle they are playing wrong. Second, knights and vehicles are handled way better with ranged anti-vehicle firepower. The problem with trying to melee them is that if you don't kill them they are gone. Leaving your precious, expensive, melee unit stranded in the open. This is also what I feel is hurting assault armies so much right now. You need to wipe the unit your assaulting and be able to consolidate into a second unit or that assaulting unit is getting wiped off the table. 

 

With Deathwatch already being so incredibly expensive it is just not worth it to build them for melee. The one exception I might make to this is a fully kitted kill team in a Corvus. But you are talking about 700 points for a unit and it's flyer at this point. This unit will do some damage but after being delivered it will be somewhat slow and easy to kite.

 

However, if you plan on making an assault army with Deathwatch you need to go all in. You can have them all in Corvus as 2-3 three drops in flyers though it is really dangerous. But right now it seems like Death Watch's only option for assault focused lists that might actually work. Don't forget to include your primaris apothecaries.

[Prot]

I think there is a reason for hth but it’s situational and not something I personally believe Deathwatch should do much of. I really do feel this is a short term conversation though. I just can’t see them leaving our hth abilities so massively overcosted. Chaos dabbles pretty darn good in it and I do prefer to have the odd Termie tanking / fisting in my lists. I wouldn’t go much further 5han that because we can see even codex using marines never really commit heavily to it.

 

I know there are aberrations out there... I’ve seen a really string dual crusader aura based assault Templar army that took a lot of people by surprise locally. But it’s rare.

 

And for the record I have 3 models with heavy hammers I never use anymore.

Edited November 8, 2017 by Prot

[Kargrym]

I have 4 HTH, 2 with jump pack, 2 without (and one thats a black shield so I can be an ass about it). my current list uses none of them, instead I have 6 lascannons, 2 missile launchers, 2 storm strike missiles, and 8 frag cannons.

[Moostick]

Black Templar was my other choice before I got back into the hobby. It was actually the HTH and ability to take so many melee weapons that steered me to DW in the end. Really sad how we're so bad at it right now, even worse than in 7th. It was still a pretty bad choice back then, but I used the HTH to hilarious effect.

 

If they remove SIA from our base cost, I can see myself making melee focused units with power weapon + chainsword/flamers, and a few bigger toys mixed in. Hopefully HTH is fixed at that time as well.

[Vel'Cona]

Pretty much have to echo everything said in response thus far.  HTH are very cool and have clear hitting power in melee, but it's not somewhere you want your expensive Veterans to sit for long (since it wastes expensive SIA/Frag Cannons/etc.) and you pay a ridiculous premium price for them.  The price drop for TH should have affected HTH as well, but GW dropped the ball there so I feel it's now a matter of waiting for the codex.  Here's hoping they take into account the HTH losing his Bolter/SIA :/

[Irbis]

Kind of incorporating what both of you are saying, plus what I've seen in another thread, I've been looking at adding in melee. If I were to do it, I think it would be something like:

 

Vet Sgt: bolter/TH

Blackshield: bolter/TH

Vet: HTH (grenade spammer!)

Vet: bolter/? (meat shield?)

Vet: bolter/? (meat shield?)

 

For basic infantry situations, power mauls/axes across the whole squad would be adequate.

 

Adding anymore HTH gets expensive and I don't stay in melee for very long to justify a bunch of them. Delivery is the other consideration though... you need some sort of non-drop pod to reliably get them into close combat, where lascannons can just sit in the back and pester your opponent.

 

But why would you do this?

 

Consider - HTH costs as much as 5 plasma pistols. These pistols do up to 10 damage and hit on 3+, so, on average they are better than two HTH (especially if you consider SIA bolt pistol in the other hand). Put them on Vanguard and they drop withing 9 inches anywhere on board, ignoring most of -1 debuffs. Even if a debuff slips in, you're still hitting on same as HTH, and unlike standard Vets, Vanguard have ability to get where they need to be, fast, or disengage and fire pistols again.

 

IMO, Veterans are bad in melee, which is OK, they are a perfectly fine shooting unit. You want melee, pick VV or Terminators, especially if the point drops from other SM books are any indication, and they both have better options than HTH. Hopefully, HTH will get buff in Codex, because as it is, I'd even pick two power fists instead...

 

Really sad how we're so bad at it right now, even worse than in 7th

 

Eh, is it really that bad? Every man having 3 attacks in standard build, and bolters not blocking charges is a lot better than 7th, I feel.

[Macabre Slanneshi Prince]

HTH changing to S+6 (or even less likely, Sx3) and Storm Bolters getting access to SIA are my two biggest hail mary wishes for the codex.