<FLY> keyword and vertical distance.

[Quixus]

I'm saying as per the rules no matter how we move the miniatures the distance is calculated as the straight line between the starting point and the endpoint.

Am i missing something, as that's not correct for combined horizontal and vertical movement.

Each axis is measured separately. But both still straight lines. If you wish. I don't recall seeing anywhere that disallows you moving in a curve.

Unless the rules tell us to measure them separately that is exactly how it works:

No matter what the trajectory (red, green, blue) is, the distance is always ≈4.24", the length of the green trajectory is equal to the distance, the red trajectory however is 6" and the blue one, I don't know but more than 4.24.

What about distances on ground? Do you add the movement along one table edge to the movement along the other table edge, or do you measure the hypotenuse (i.e. put the measuring tape between the starting and end point)? It is the same thing in 3 dimensions

[Stoic Raptor]

 

Of course and this is the case for any movement. We are comparing distance to movement characteristic, not trajectory to movement characteristic.

If moving 6 inches across flat ground costs you 6 inches of movement, moving across a 2" flat ground, an arbitrarily high and 2" wide building and another 2 inches of flat ground, as if the terrain piece were not there, that should also cost 6". If it costs more that is a violation of the condition as it it were not there.

 

Not sure what you mean by the distinction between across and through.

 

I'm saying as per the rules no matter how we move the miniatures the distance is calculated as the straight line between the starting point and the endpoint.

As I said any direction. There is no need to follow the ground and the wall. The distance between the starting and the end point in your example is not 6 inches but Sqrt(18)≈4,24 inches. Movement is limited by distance, not by trajectory.

 

 

OK, the difference between "across" and "through" should be obvious.  If you're flying over rough ground/difficult terrain, you're not hindered because you are above it - but otherwise moving in a straight line.  Fly does not let you pass through solid walls, nor should it allow free ascent.  Again, it seems like you are conflating "terrain" and "distance".

"As if it were not there" does not allow you to ignore the fact that there's a building in the way, that would be absurd. Nor should it allow you to shoot straight up in the air for an infinite/indeterminate distance for free.

 

If you're measuring a straight line between the start point and the endpoint, do so - but that straight line is not merely the horizontal distance if you are also ending your movement with a vertical increase.  And if movement is distance, not trajectory (as the rules state), then you're moving 3 forward and 3 up (6 inches) not 4.24 inches of the trajectory.

 

At the very least I'd insist my opponent measure the true distance rather than merely the horizontal component, if they were trying to leap over or land on a building.  According to the rules, however, "any direction" would mean inches up count as much as inches forward.

 

If you and your opponent agree otherwise, that's always fine.  But officially or for tournament purposes, there's nothing in the rules that let units with Fly ignore distance, only the slowing effects of terrain.

 

This is probably a case where you might want to inquire on the Warhammer Facebook page or whatever means is used to get an official answer, because if intelligent, rational people (as we all clearly are) can disagree on the interpretation of the rule, then it's obviously poorly-written.

[Gentlemanloser]

Quixus we are told to measure separately.

 

It's in one of the FAQs.

 

From the stepping into a new edition FAQ.

 

Q: How do vertical distances work for movement and measurements? A: All distances are measured in three dimensions, so if a unit moves over a hill or scales a wall, the horizontal distance and vertical distance combined cannot exceed its Movement characteristic. This means that in order to traverse across an obstacle, you must move up to the top of that obstacle, move across the top of it, then move down it.

[Quixus]

 

Of course and this is the case for any movement. We are comparing distance to movement characteristic, not trajectory to movement characteristic.

If moving 6 inches across flat ground costs you 6 inches of movement, moving across a 2" flat ground, an arbitrarily high and 2" wide building and another 2 inches of flat ground, as if the terrain piece were not there, that should also cost 6". If it costs more that is a violation of the condition as it it were not there.

 

 

Not sure what you mean by the distinction between across and through.

 

I'm saying as per the rules no matter how we move the miniatures the distance is calculated as the straight line between the starting point and the endpoint.

As I said any direction. There is no need to follow the ground and the wall. The distance between the starting and the end point in your example is not 6 inches but Sqrt(18)≈4,24 inches. Movement is limited by distance, not by trajectory.

 OK, the difference between "across" and "through" should be obvious.  If you're flying over rough ground/difficult terrain, you're not hindered because you are above it - but otherwise moving in a straight line.  Fly does not let you pass through solid walls, nor should it allow free ascent.  Again, it seems like you are conflating "terrain" and "distance".

"As if it were not there" does not allow you to ignore the fact that there's a building in the way, that would be absurd. Nor should it allow you to shoot straight up in the air for an infinite/indeterminate distance for free.

 What should or should not be is a whole different question. Yes it is absurd but that is what the designers wrote. The rules tell us to ignore terrain for units with the fly ability. So there cannot be a difference in distance between a movement through/across a terrain piece and a movement across open ground.

 

Since the Fly rule also excludes models what do yo think about this?A flyrant is in base to base contact with Dante. Dante wants to get into a spot 6" behind the flyrant.  So is it 2* height of flyrant+diameter of flyrant base+6" or is it just diameter of flyrant base+6"? Now remove the flyrant and explain to me how the rules support the distance getting shorter.

 

 

If you're measuring a straight line between the start point and the endpoint, do so - but that straight line is not merely the horizontal distance if you are also ending your movement with a vertical increase.  And if movement is distance, not trajectory (as the rules state), then you're moving 3 forward and 3 up (6 inches) not 4.24 inches of the trajectory.

You are confusing distance with trajectory. The distance between say the points (0,0,0) and (3,0,3) is about 4.24. It does not matter along which line you go. the actual tracing of the line is the trajectory. So the length of the trajectory can be 3+3 or any other length equal to or greater than 4.24. The distance is the shortest possible trajectory to get from one point to the other.

 

At the very least I'd insist my opponent measure the true distance rather than merely the horizontal component, if they were trying to leap over or land on a building.  According to the rules, however, "any direction" would mean inches up count as much as inches forward.

Of course. However there is no rule saying we should add forward and up, any more than there is a rule saying we should add along the long table edge and along the short table edge.

 

@Gentlemanloser: We could debate all day long whether this FAQ is binding or whether it can change rules. But that isn't even necessary, because the statement does not contradict what I am saying. We are instructed to combine the vertical and horizontal distances, we are not instructed to add them. d=sqrt((a₁ - b₁)²+(a₂ - b₂)² + (a₃ - b₃)²) is also a combination of horizontal and vertical distances. The example does not help either because it assumes that the model starts and ends next to the obstacle.

 

You could even argue that the FAQ confirms what I am saying. If you measure the distance on the ground and the vertical distance separately and add them up, you are not measuring in three dimensions as per the FAQ but in two and one.

[Gentlemanloser]

Its got to be seperate mate.

 

When we are told directly to measure up, then across, then down.

 

I'm sure for slopes the intention is to use the hypotenuse. Diagonally up the hill. Horizontally across. Diagonally back down.

 

But if you're standing next to a wall. Is straight up then across then down.

 

And all these seperate movements can be no more than your total movement value.

 

And that's def measuring in 3D. ;)

[Stoic Raptor]

 What should or should not be is a whole different question. Yes it is absurd but that is what the designers wrote. The rules tell us to ignore terrain for units with the fly ability. So there cannot be a difference in distance between a movement through/across a terrain piece and a movement across open ground.

 

Of course. However there is no rule saying we should add forward and up

 

It's not "what the designers wrote", it's merely an interpretation that isn't even supported by semantics.  It never says "can move through" it says "can move across".  That may not seem like a difference, but it certainly is.

 

And as stated, it's quite clearly addressed in the FAQ.  If you're trying to argue the validity of the FAQ, there's no point in attempting a reasonable discussion.  It starts to sound like we're arguing with a rules lawyer.  The FAQ definitely doesn't say anything like what you're trying to twist it to.  I'm just thankful I don't play games with that sort of player.  I'm done here.

[Quixus]

@Gentlemanloser:
I agree with what you are saying in case the movement starts and ends right next to the obstacle. However what happens if the movement does not start and end there?
 
Let's say the model is 3" away from a 3" cube and wants to get to a point 3" away for the cube on the other side. What is the distance? What is the distance for a model with the FLY keyword?
 
According to the rules we measure the distance without going through terrain, but the rules do not prohibit us from measuring through the air, and the FAQ confirms that we are supposed to measure in three dimensions. Measuring only across the ground is measuring in two dimensions, and then going up/down is measuring in one dimension, so not three-dimensional measuring.
So it is 4.24" (starting point to near upper corner of the cube) + 3" (across the top) + 4.24" (far upper corner of the cube to the end point) = 11.48"
 
Since we are not instructed that the model must always have contact with a surface, there is no reason to measure 3" (starting point - to cube at ground level) + 3"(up the cube wall)+3" (across the top) + 3" (down the other wall) +3" (to the end point) = 15". While this the length of a trajectory from the starting point to the end point it is not the distance.
 
Units with the Fly key word on the other hand ignore the cube as per the rules so the distance is 9".
 
BTW, how do you measure weapon ranges? Do you use the forward + up/down approach there as well, or do you simply connect the measuring tape from one model to another?
 

 

What should or should not be is a whole different question. Yes it is absurd but that is what the designers wrote. The rules tell us to ignore terrain for units with the fly ability. So there cannot be a difference in distance between a movement through/across a terrain piece and a movement across open ground.
 
Of course. However there is no rule saying we should add forward and up

 
It's not "what the designers wrote", it's merely an interpretation that isn't even supported by semantics.  It never says "can move through" it says "can move across".  That may not seem like a difference, but it certainly is.

 

It actually is, if you do not omit the "as if they were not there" part. If the terrain is not there you do not go up and down, so for units with Fly there is no vertical distance to use in any way.
 

And as stated, it's quite clearly addressed in the FAQ.  If you're trying to argue the validity of the FAQ, there's no point in attempting a reasonable discussion.  It starts to sound like we're arguing with a rules lawyer.  The FAQ definitely doesn't say anything like what you're trying to twist it to.  I'm just thankful I don't play games with that sort of player.  I'm done here.

The FAQ says nothing about being forced to measure across the ground and then up. It states that you have to measure in three dimensions. Measuring across the ground separately is not measuring in three dimensions.

 

You may not like it and I find the rules ridiculous as well, but that does not change them, only errata do that.

 

to sum it up: Any direction includes diagonally into the air, not going through terrain, does not force you to go across the surface of terrain, it only prevents you from going through it. So there is absolutely nothing in the rules saying your models must stay in contact with any gaming surface during movement.

[Eddie Orlock]

So, I can see I should've intervened in this topic when I first saw it rather than letting it run to its own devices. At this point I think I've seen vector mechanics raised thrice, so I'm going to shut this in for the time being. In any event, the tone I'm reading here feels increasingly exasperated, so it's time for a break before anyone gets themselves in actual trouble.

 

At some later point, time and inspiration permitting, I may replace this closure notice with a carefully cited interpretation of the rules that ideally will make it clearer. Alternatively, I may be convinced to reopen it if presented with such an solution from another user.