Chapter Approved

[Bremon]

Dreadnoughts benefiting from Chapter Tactics and Ven having FNP6+ to help make up less wounds really shines a light on the mediocrity of the Predator I’m afraid. It needs either a cost cut or a T bump (they were armour 13 front previously, no?). As is, a Dread can be -1 to hit >12” while simultaneously burning a command point to act as a captain for the Devastators it can be a bodyguard for.

[Pendent]

Yeah, I'm definitely referring to what you get for the cost here and not the relative effectiveness. Toughness 8 and more firepower for fewer points, at expense of worse accuracy. I'd make that trade.

[Frater Cornelius]

Yeah, I'm definitely referring to what you get for the cost here and not the relative effectiveness. Toughness 8 and more firepower for fewer points, at expense of worse accuracy. I'd make that trade.

 

But that would make it better than Eldar vehicles and we can't have that, can we?

[Panzer]

Whirlwinds are definitely not worth it. I'd rather take Missile Launcher Devastators instead if I wanted that kind of shooting. Being able to shoot without LoS is of questionable worth as long as LoS can be drawn this easily.

[Frater Cornelius]

Whirlwinds are definitely not worth it. I'd rather take Missile Launcher Devastators instead if I wanted that kind of shooting. Being able to shoot without LoS is of questionable worth as long as LoS can be drawn this easily.

 

Yeah. To reiterate, point changes are a nice step in the right direction, but this won't make Marines viable in a system like we have right now. They are not suited for it. It would take an overhaul of the rules or Marines to restore any semblence of balance.

[Chaplain Gunzhard]

Whirlwinds are definitely not worth it. I'd rather take Missile Launcher Devastators instead if I wanted that kind of shooting. Being able to shoot without LoS is of questionable worth as long as LoS can be drawn this easily.

 

Well having used Medusa's and Basilisks with my IG so far a lot in 8th, I have to disagree. It's worth quite a lot when you can park it inside a ruin building and never worry about LOS or range (72"). For the same reasons shooty dreads are better than CC dreads, it has to risk a lot less to be effective. The assault-cannon razorback is now more expensive and is short ranged.

[Frater Cornelius]

 

Whirlwinds are definitely not worth it. I'd rather take Missile Launcher Devastators instead if I wanted that kind of shooting. Being able to shoot without LoS is of questionable worth as long as LoS can be drawn this easily.

 

Well having used Medusa's and Basilisks with my IG so far a lot in 8th, I have to disagree. It's worth quite a lot when you can park it inside a ruin building and never worry about LOS or range (72"). For the same reasons shooty dreads are better than CC dreads, it has to risk a lot less to be effective. The assault-cannon razorback is now more expensive and is short ranged.

 

 

You can not compare a Basilisk with a Whirlwind. The former is far better and more destructive. Astra vehicles outclass SM vehicles, no matter which way you slice it, Razorbacks being the only exception. I like shooting without LOS. The issue is that the Whirlwind weapons suffer a lot from variance. I miss templates....

[Panzer]

 

 

Whirlwinds are definitely not worth it. I'd rather take Missile Launcher Devastators instead if I wanted that kind of shooting. Being able to shoot without LoS is of questionable worth as long as LoS can be drawn this easily.

 

Well having used Medusa's and Basilisks with my IG so far a lot in 8th, I have to disagree. It's worth quite a lot when you can park it inside a ruin building and never worry about LOS or range (72"). For the same reasons shooty dreads are better than CC dreads, it has to risk a lot less to be effective. The assault-cannon razorback is now more expensive and is short ranged.

 

 

You can not compare a Basilisk with a Whirlwind. The former is far better and more destructive. Astra vehicles outclass SM vehicles, no matter which way you slice it, Razorbacks being the only exception. I like shooting without LOS. The issue is that the Whirlwind weapons suffer a lot from variance. I miss templates....

 

Whirlwinds were just as bad with templates. Its only saving grace there was that it was dirt cheap. It still rarely got used.

Edited November 8, 2017 by sfPanzer

[Chaplain Gunzhard]

 

 

Whirlwinds are definitely not worth it. I'd rather take Missile Launcher Devastators instead if I wanted that kind of shooting. Being able to shoot without LoS is of questionable worth as long as LoS can be drawn this easily.

 

Well having used Medusa's and Basilisks with my IG so far a lot in 8th, I have to disagree. It's worth quite a lot when you can park it inside a ruin building and never worry about LOS or range (72"). For the same reasons shooty dreads are better than CC dreads, it has to risk a lot less to be effective. The assault-cannon razorback is now more expensive and is short ranged.

 

 

You can not compare a Basilisk with a Whirlwind. The former is far better and more destructive. Astra vehicles outclass SM vehicles, no matter which way you slice it, Razorbacks being the only exception. I like shooting without LOS. The issue is that the Whirlwind weapons suffer a lot from variance. I miss templates....

 

 

Please explain what you mean by they suffer from variance? ...and how are the 2 not comparable?

 

Basilisk is way higher strength indeed; but it's only D6 shots hitting on 4+, the Whirlwind is 2D6 hitting on 3+ and still Strength 6 (or 2D3 hitting on 3+, S7, -1AP 2-damage)... I simply can't understand what's bad about this? I don't get it...

 

Especially when the greatest obstacle I've faced with BA is numbers of cheap chaff troops... S6 will still wound almost all chaff on 2+.

 

And for the record I love the assault-cannon razorback, but it is much shorter range, requires LOS, has 1 less wound and is more expensive.

 

 

Edited November 8, 2017 by Chaplain Gunzhard

[Bremon]

The Razorback kills garbage more effectively then the Whirlwind, even if it has to move to get in range. Whirlwind averages 7 shots; 4.66 hits. Razor averages 6 hits on the move and 8 stationary, plus can have a storm bolter or extra chaff clearing. To top it off, the razor can transport more bolters or stormbolters for more chaff clearing.

[Frater Cornelius]

The Basilisk rolls 2 dice and picks the higher one, for starters. It has superior range, regimental doctrines, better strength and AP, thus is able to tackle vehicles and strong armour saves. The Whirlwind is yet more anti-infantry in an army that needs reliable anti tank, badly. Besides, you can not really compare it 1 to 1, as the army around it also matters. Astra units are cheaper, meaning one can take more Basilisks. The army also has very solid anti-infantry, but needs to deal with MEQ in cover as well as vehicles at long range, something the Basilisk does well. SM have arguably too many ways to deal with infantry, but they lack any meaningful way to dislodge cover campers and tanks outside of lucky LC fire or Guilliman buffs. The army is also expensive in terms of ppm, rendering any slight inefficiencies as a bad choice. As an Astra player you do not need to count pennies. You take everything. With Marines, taking a Whirlwind means not taking a Pred or Razor, at which point the WW isn't convincing enough. Maybe the WW is insignificantly worse than a Basilisk, but the army around it makes it work, plus it has ways to mitigate randomness, which is gold.

[Chaplain Gunzhard]

The Razorback kills garbage more effectively then the Whirlwind, even if it has to move to get in range. Whirlwind averages 7 shots; 4.66 hits. Razor averages 6 hits on the move and 8 stationary, plus can have a storm bolter or extra chaff clearing. To top it off, the razor can transport more bolters or stormbolters for more chaff clearing.

 

The razorback absolutely has a place, and it's awesome... but getting within 24" range also means it'll get assaulted/neutered a lot quicker too. Math-ing it out doesn't account for range or LOS and/or proximity to receiving more shooting or assault.

 

I guess my experience with other non-LOS tanks really has me biased then, but I don't see how you can argue the whirlwind isn't good, especially at the current rumored price of 95 points.

 

Against my razorbacks people just dummy charged them with rhinos, spawns, chaff whatever; same thing they did to my Land Raider, making it a total waste of points regardless of any math-hammer potential output.

 

The Basilisk rolls 2 dice and picks the higher one, for starters. It has superior range, regimental doctrines, better strength and AP, thus is able to tackle vehicles and strong armour saves. The Whirlwind is yet more anti-infantry in an army that needs reliable anti tank, badly. Besides, you can not really compare it 1 to 1, as the army around it also matters. Astra units are cheaper, meaning one can take more Basilisks. The army also has very solid anti-infantry, but needs to deal with MEQ in cover as well as vehicles at long range, something the Basilisk does well. SM have arguably too many ways to deal with infantry, but they lack any meaningful way to dislodge cover campers and tanks outside of lucky LC fire or Guilliman buffs. The army is also expensive in terms of ppm, rendering any slight inefficiencies as a bad choice. As an Astra player you do not need to count pennies. You take everything. With Marines, taking a Whirlwind means not taking a Pred or Razor, at which point the WW isn't convincing enough. Maybe the WW is insignificantly worse than a Basilisk, but the army around it makes it work, plus it has ways to mitigate randomness, which is gold.

 

I agree IG have more points to toss around, but 95 for the whirlwind is excellent; you still have yet to convince me. The Basilisk still averages less shots and less hits, the range is entirely not an issue since the WW is 72"; the Basilisk is clearly better at killing armour and elites, but in both cases being able to hide in a corner ruin all game is invaluable.

 

As for killing chaff I dunno, dealing with large numbers of cheap troops is tough for every army currently, especially BA imo. Conscripts and chaos chaff spam is bad enough, Nids are gonna roll us.

 

Edited November 8, 2017 by Chaplain Gunzhard

[Panzer]

 

The Razorback kills garbage more effectively then the Whirlwind, even if it has to move to get in range. Whirlwind averages 7 shots; 4.66 hits. Razor averages 6 hits on the move and 8 stationary, plus can have a storm bolter or extra chaff clearing. To top it off, the razor can transport more bolters or stormbolters for more chaff clearing.

 

The razorback absolutely has a place, and it's awesome... but getting within 24" range also means it'll get assaulted/neutered a lot quicker too. Mathing it out doesn't account for range or LOS and/or proximity to receiving more shooting or assault.

 

I guess my experience with other non-LOS tanks really has me biased then, but I don't see how you can argue the whirlwind isn't good, especially at the current rumored price of 95 points.

 

Well I guess I'm the opposite then since I can't see how you can argue it being good with that damage output. :D

[Chaplain Gunzhard]

Hah well we'll just disagree then, but I'll point out that WW can also take storm bolter and HKM, though what makes them better imo is the range and not needing LOS so at least the former wouldn't likely matter.

 

A 24" range tank is just too easy to disable with an assault - nobody in my meta anyway would let it keep shooting unmolested.

[Bremon]

Well my experience so far in 8th spam is pretty much key at achieving anything in this game so 1 razor gets dummy charged, but 3+ with a couple scrap squads in front to bubble make it a different story. Any lone tank is easy to incapacitate if it’s unsupported.

 

I suppose whirlwind is good in that regard; it takes more of a commitment to disable. Other side of that coin is it doesn’t accomplish much so can be basically ignored anyway.

[Chaplain Gunzhard]

Well my experience so far in 8th spam is pretty much key at achieving anything in this game so 1 razor gets dummy charged, but 3+ with a couple scrap squads in front to bubble make it a different story. Any lone tank is easy to incapacitate if it’s unsupported.

 

I suppose whirlwind is good in that regard; it takes more of a commitment to disable. Other side of that coin is it doesn’t accomplish much so can be basically ignored anyway.

 

Well to get back to the beginning of this... the assault-cannon razorback is apparently going up in points and the whirlwind is yet again going down. The razorback is still the ballz no doubt, but it's worth noting that Blood Angels don't really do "scrap squads" and bubble wrap all that well - and short range tanks are just so so easily disabled with assault - at least in my meta.

 

I guess since we don't have any custom stratagems yet I find myself only using command points for either stuff like the whirlwind or charge distances (different phases). I'm gonna predict right here, right now - that we start to see WW's in top winning competitive lists. :)

[Bremon]

Yep, I hear you. It’s surprising how different play styles can be in different groups. As far as I’m concerned a plas/combi plas is melta/combi melta tac squad in one of the Razorbacks is a scrap squad by SM standards, but I definitely understand where you’re coming from.

[The Unseen]

It's really easy as to why the whirlwind is terrible.

It's mediocre anti infantry in an army that is literally drowning in more of it.

That whirlwind is going to, on average, kill (7 average shots, 4.7 hits, 3.9 wounds, 2.6 failed 5+ saves)

So almost 3 guardsmen a turn. Or less than 2 if they took cover.

Of course, that's math hammer, and it never works out perfectly, but if you make use of the tanks few strengths, that is, no los needed, it'll probably fire for 6 turns, so it's gonna probably get close to that average over a game.

The tank costs almost 100 points.

So it needs to fire over 8 times to kill it's own points in guardsmen, which is basically it's most effecient target.

Or you know, you could use bolters, those guns every infantry unit nearly in the army has.

For comparison, 5 tacticals within 12" does the same damage, for 65 pts.

And when your damage effeciency is worse than freaking tactical marines, you have a bad unit.

If it was a flat 12 shots always and ignored cover, it might have some value.

 

At least the Las-Pred is decent at its dedicated task, even if it isn't hyper effecient at it.

The only vehicle worse than the whirlwind is the vindicator, which has a decent chance of doing literally nothing at all, rather than 3 guardsmen.

[Jorre]

I have obe whirl wind i occasionally use.

 

Its cheap and low threat, people dont like wasting the resources required to kill a t7 10 wound vehicle unless there are no more threatening choices.

 

Plonk him on an objective and your opponent has to choose between killing real threats and moving a toygh ta k off an objective possibly getting a unit out of place i the process.

 

It got cheaper and while that doesnt make it good it does make it better

[Frater Cornelius]

Been trying out Twin HB Tarantulas for the same purpose. Worked well. Maybe the WW can work as well. If not, use it as a WW Scorpius or Hyperios.

[Karhedron]

Whirlwinds are definitely not worth it. I'd rather take Missile Launcher Devastators instead if I wanted that kind of shooting. Being able to shoot without LoS is of questionable worth as long as LoS can be drawn this easily.

That depends on the boards you play with. My local club has plenty of terrain pieces large enough to hide vehicles behind and we make sure we include 2-3 pieces on each board. If your table is too sparse, the game becomes unbalanced and shooty units like Devastators just overpower everything else.

[Chaplain Gunzhard]

 

Whirlwinds are definitely not worth it. I'd rather take Missile Launcher Devastators instead if I wanted that kind of shooting. Being able to shoot without LoS is of questionable worth as long as LoS can be drawn this easily.

That depends on the boards you play with. My local club has plenty of terrain pieces large enough to hide vehicles behind and we make sure we include 2-3 pieces on each board. If your table is too sparse, the game becomes unbalanced and shooty units like Devastators just overpower everything else.

 

 

Same here, and at least judging from NOVA tournaments are going out of their way to provide big LOS-blocking pieces now.

 

I realize 'mathhammer' is a thing... but being able to, very likely, shoot throughout the course of an entire game, versus 1 or 2 rounds of shooting (before assault disable) is the big difference for me. I learned this lesson trying to field a Land Raider over many games - it's WAAY more shooty efficient than anything we've compared here - but that much more of a waste of points when it doesn't get to fire because any decent opponent will send a cheap transport to assault it.

 

Beyond that, it's too easy to get rerolls to force-multiply any tank for us... in the shooting phase I can choose to use a CP for reroll and still use it again in the Assault phase; any Captain or Dante, or Lieutenant will give some rerolls etc.

 

Mostly the reason I'm all charged about it now is not for Conscript / chaos chaff blobs that don't move - but because Bugs are coming and they're fast as heck - your 24" range tank is gonna be out almost from the start... <- and that really is the entire point of shooting without LOS at 72".

[Chaplain Gunzhard]

Just to be more specific, this is what I'm talking about... because of the big LOS blocker in the middle of the table and other terrain, the Devastators only had 2 narrow fire lanes. As good as they are with the Captain for rerolls they still need something to shoot at, but ended up mostly popping individual models here and there. The whirlwind shot unmolested all game, also benefiting from the Captain reroll - did tons of work against Chaos.

 

Since we don't have any fancy stratagems to spend CP on yet I use mine for rerolls and still rarely use all of them.

 

I haven't had a chance to try the WW against more elite armies where I realize it should be much less efficient, but I'll be playing against Bugs hopefully this weekend.

[Panzer]

Yeah that's the kind of terrain we have all over our table as well. It's not really a LoS blocker unless you declare the ground level to be LoS blocking, but it's enough to give a cover bonus if the enemy comes from the right angle.

[Bremon]

Yep, we have similar terrain and more than anything it means you get a cover save. Breaking LOS from opposite corner of the board; yes, but not likely down the other lengths.