Making Black Templars Competitive, or at Least Strong, in 8e

[Thrown Pommel]

So I've been picking my brain over how to make a strong Black Templars list, but keep coming up short. I always revert back to assault cannon razorback spam, and at that point I might as well be playing Ultramarines (HERESY!)

 

I think part of the problem is that, while Black Templars are better at getting into close combat, they are still a shooting army like the rest of the Codex Marines. It doesn't matter how consistently you get into combat if when you get there you hit like a wet noodle!

 

How would you build an army that both has some "competitive teeth" and also uses the unique attributes of the Black Templars effectively? Thanks ahead of time and looking forward to what you guys have in mind!

[Firepower]

Land Raider Crusader, Storm Raven, Vanguard, and Ironclads for seasoning.  Castellans are easily worth their price for the buff they give, and Helbrecht is a beast (and you need that aura to pack a good punch).

 

Although I've been thinking of a cheeky MSU approach, a few Rhinos each carrying a 5 man shooty and 5 man stabby Crusader Squad.

 

At any rate, no, Crusader Squads don't pack much of a whollop in melee.  They're Assault Squads without jump packs, basically.  So you can throw meaner units like Vanguard and Terminators in first with Crusaders playing clean up afterward, but really you won't manage anything of significance without a few solid shooting units.  C:SM is a shooty dex, no way around it.

Edited November 8, 2017 by Firepower

[Kontakt]

You can always treat templars like a shooty army, selecting only strong assault units for your charges and dedicating the rest of your army to supporting fire. Not the most entertaining way to play templars, but you specified competitive.

Edited November 8, 2017 by Kontakt

[SWORD BROTHER RYAN]

While trying to remain on the competitive side, I do take an equal amount of Combat SQDs in both CC and shooter. For transport, in my experience, LR and variants are a massive target on the field, but air power equalizes many games. I usually run an LRC, Storm Raven, Storm Talon, and 50/50 mix of CC and shooters. Sprinkle in some tougher units like termies, armor, and dreads and you got a very competitive list.

 

Also, I can't say enough to use Helbrecht &/or Gimaldus for some sweet aura abilities.

[Marshal_Roujakis]

It depends on how competitive you want Templars to be...

 

if you're going for Tournament Ultra-Competitive, then you have to play with allies, there's no other way to circumvent that... a mixed bag of other Chapters, Knights, and Astra Militarum support together with Sisters, GK or Assassin anti-psyker shenanigans to make your army the most hated out of all tournaments...

 

If you're going for more of a Templar centralized competitive list, then you're going to be less centralized in melee than you think with a heavier emphasis on using Primaris and Forge World shenanigans to get Dreadnoughts and other heavy hitters on the right spot for maximum damage and board control... 

 

If you want to be more melee centralized and you're fine with being less competitive with your games, then as suggested, you won't get much mileage from Crusader Squads, even with buffs from Grimaldus and Helbrecht, they can handle themselves against other troops choices, but they won't be plastering Khorne Berzerkers or Terminators... I'd recommend using them as back-up troops for heavy hitters, you can have MSU or even big squads for Crusaders, but I recommend not using them for hitting the enemies first... use Terminators or Vanguard or even Dreadnoughts for those tasks...

 

Same idea when using them as shooting squads, use them as what they are meant for which is as line troopers to either hold objectives or provide fire support for things that your tanks failed to kill... I usually use them in conjunction to Devastator Squads, leaving Lascannons or Meltaguns or Plasma guns to fire after Heavy Support squads have fired all their shots for that Hail Mary shot...

 

If you want to stay competitive then Flyers... and Command Points... use those well and strategically... we're not Ultramarines after all that poop out CPs... and buff zones... keep those in mind and always check distance... know you're army, and good luck with your dice rolls ;)

[JAG Templar]

So here is a list I recently played in a competitive game and won. It's quite different from what I would normally play, and has allies but definitely gets the job done.

 

Templar Battalion

 

Chaplain Venerable Dread - twin lascannon

Captain - thunder hammer plasma pistol

 

Choppy crusaders - SB with plasma pistol

Shooty crusaders - lascannon - twin lascannon razorback

Midfield crusaders - heavy bolter, plasma gun - assault can razorback

 

Imperium Vanguard det

 

Celestine

Eversor

Culexus

Culexus

 

Flyer Det

 

Stormraven - all the guns

2 x storm talon with assault cannon and lascannon

 

Worked against a variety of lists including massed Guard infantry supported by 5 or 6 leman russ.

Edited November 8, 2017 by JAG Templar

[Thrown Pommel]

I like what I'm hearing so far! Gonna post a list or two in the Lists Forum later today I'll keep you guys posted lol.

[Marshal_von_Speer]

One of the bigest Problems our chapter has, is the lack of proper psychic defense. "Abhor the Witch" is good but also costs one CP and can only be used once per round. Due to the way the new psychic phase works, most of the spells are an autopass if there's no "deny the witch" to interfere. Especially psyker heavy armies like GK, Eldar or some of the Traitors will have a field day in the psychic phase.

 

A very effective way to close this gap is the addition of Assassins to your army. They are cheap and very effective if used correctly. Culexii and Vindicares are a good choice to get rid of psykers. The culexus in particular has a nice aura ability that makes casting for the enemy harder (+2 on warpcharge rolls within 18" iirc).

 

I think it's best to take one in an auxiliary support det or three in a vanguard det.

[Schlitzaf]

Firepower, I just want a point out vs only JetPack Vangaurd. Crusader Squads in damage output at the same point per an attack assuming equal Init/Neo. And have about twice the durability. So the only time I’d take Vangaurd is 5-6ish man PowWeapon Squads.

 

———

The super tl;dr version of the below post is this. Our army is versatile and incredibly efficient. Our support options are among the best in C:SM beside Ultras.

 

Our downside is by leveraging some of our biggest strength by using our special characters, we lose access the Helm and forced to use a subpar Warlord Trait.

 

Our biggest asset is a Troop Choice. That is just that at end of the day. A Troop Choice. It lacks firepower of elite units once said elite units are upgraded beyond just a chainsword and/or couple cool guns.

 

———

As others have said our Crusaders are the Anvil to elite unit Hammer. They lock the enemy in place as we bring down the pain. There is something else to emphasis.

 

The biggest reason to take our boys competitive is that we can leverage or effectively ignore the troop tax other Marines often struggle with. Our MSU Crusaders are about as efficient as 2 Weapon Devies Or 4 HvyBolter Devies.

 

Our Crusader Squads point per an attack are about as much Vangaurd. We are only 4 Points more expensive than Intercessors per a wound unit. 6 Points if the approved leak is true. But we are less vulnerable to Plasma.

 

Between Cenobytes and Rites of War (w/ Helm) we have 21” bubble of Morale Immunity. Or 42” of Total coverage. So we can afford to tide and we can afford to MSU. Because of Helm, a single captain has the buff of effectively two captains. (Two captains each have a 6” bubble or total coverage of 220”, the math is 2(Pi x 36) where we have a bubble with just the Helm on Marshall of 254” or (Pi x 81). This means we need less characters for effective bubbling and allowing more guys.

 

Or we can instead of another character an Emperor’s Champion. With the standard setup of Marshall (or Helbrect)/Castallen, you unlock a second detachment. Meaning we are starting the game with 7 Command Points. Or 6 if take two relics. And we are not taking a troop tax like other marine armies save Space Wolves suffer from.

 

We cannot stop Smite Spam but with our strategem we have one of the more reliable ways to stop enemy powers. So we can deny Warp Time style powers much easier than other armies with true pyskers whom lose on ties.

————

Biggest Pros:

—No Troop Tax. Leverage it. Either doing MSU shooty squad or Tide melee support squads. A Crusader Squad when outfitted is about as efficient as elite or heavy equivalent.

—To iterate our Crusader Squad is very versatile and able to fulfill almost any battlefield role bar being a true Hammer.

—Our Relic reduces the need for taking as many characters

—We have Cenobytes whom can fill out Vangaurd and provide 24” Bubble of Battle Shock Immunity.

—We have a solid setup of BT Unique support characters, Helbrect and Emperor’s Champion foremost among them.

—Our Strategem is effective at starting key powers like Warp Time

—We can bring in the dough (strategem) quickly and easily, because our troop units are not a Tax of other marines. And we can reasonably bring two detachments.

 

Biggest Cons:

—Smite Spam if Pure Hurts. Given you can easily leverage 2 Detachments from Templars you leave yourself with 1 for soup. If only dedicated one detachment, you can be losing essentially a command point. Especially if still run our Emperor’s Champion.

—‘12 Point’ Marines, require 10+ Squads leaving transport options to LRC.

—We don’t have access unless souping to the Null Zone Power.

—Tactic leave much to be desired and can be in conflict with reroll strategem. Heavy Terrain use makes out tactic much worse, which is required in 8th.*

—Lackluster Warlord, meaning if we only have names as characters, we get a trait that essentially prevents the enemy from leaving Combat/Stops them from over-watching on our turn.

—Our biggest pros is from leverage a troop unit, which while about as efficient as Heavy/Elite equivalents, lack the raw stopping or damage that those units can put out. A damage required vs elite style units

 

———

The long and short of it, our biggest assets are tied in our ability to get more for less.

 

Our Marshall’s being worth two captains for other marine armies. Our 3 of our 4 Special (0-1) Units are very effective Force multipliers. (Helbrect being 2 Points worth of Captains but give SuperRerolls and STR 5. As well as Artificer and comes with Anti-Tank).

 

We can easily unlock a 2nd Detachment given our access to Emperor’s Champion (other Marines will have to take Librarians or TechMarines, take a Chaplain or second Liutanent to avoid redundancy).

 

Our Crusader Squads are highly efficient and versatile. In many ways represent a Codex onto themselves only lacking a way to be a hammer unit. And as such beside Ultra’s we will be able to leverage quite a few command points over other Marine Armies.

 

However our cons here are linked to our plusses, having super awesome named support characters means taking them denies us access to Rites of War and the Helm.

 

The Crusader Squad is still just a Troop Squad. While we can leverage multiple detachments, we are reliant on a once per phase strategem to stop powers making us vulnerable to Smite-Spam. And if we fully utilize our relic we are more vulnerable to Sniper Units.

 

*Rerolls before modifiers so if you roll a 8 and enemy is 8” away but enemy is in forest you cannot use our tactic).

[Medjugorje]

main problem is that we are Space Marines. So make a list and still another chaptertactic is better then ours in a competitive way. Change Helbrecht against another named Chapter-Master.

 

Our chapter tactics are written for close combat, but the codex is written for a shooty army.

 

Terminators dont have enough output (need +1 attack)

Vanguard is too expensive

CrusaderSquad in close combat is a bad joke. Still Aussaultsquad without jumpack and AS with jump-pack is still one of the weakest choices (still need more attacks, why buying a power sword for one attack? - bad joke)

Reivers are good, but need at least one power weapon

Honor Guard is good but just 2 models per unit and need more attacks.

 

on the other side:

we have the best troop unit if you compare to tactical squad and scouts.

The crusader squad as shooty unit with combiweapon + specialweapon + heavyweapon in a 5 man squad is like a better devastor squad (but not really templar like)

[Schlitzaf]

We are better than Assault Squads. We are effectively a point cheaper. Medj we aren’t the best in the game. But we certainly aren’t in a bad place anymore either.

[Marshal_Roujakis]

tbh, if we compare other newer released Codices to ours, in an Assault based environment, we'd be on the lower end of the stick... but that's not surprising since essentially speaking C:SM was the first 8th ed. released and unless you started playing 2015, then you wouldn't have noticed all the power creeps that happened starting 5th ed. to 7th ed.

 

I'd recommend to actually laying low in regards to competitive games until the moment that all main Codex releases are done, so that when C:SM gets new rules with Chapter Approved and whatnot, we could actually start going full competitive once again (unless GW screws that up and makes C:SM more shootier than they are now...)

 

Crusader Squads in general aren't meant to be the hard hitters as many here have mentioned so many times, and Assault Squads have their own roles too... Assault Squads without Jump Packs are meant to be melee counter offensive units for other Chapters without access to Crusader Squads... and the ones with Jump Packs are usually used as a fast harassment unit to tie up Snipers or heavy shooting units like tanks to stop them for a turn or again as a fast counter offensive unit...

 

Expecting everything in the Space Marine book to be as damaging as they are in the lore, or our basic line troops to be as powerful as a the enemies most Elite units is throwing out competition and balance out the window once again... we're getting some semblance of balance now with Chaos actually being terrifying in Assaults and Eldar being less powerful as they were before, and while C:SM might look like they're getting the short end of the stick, it's mainly due to power creep of more balanced book out there... I have no doubt that once Chapter Approved hits BT would once again be in-line with other Chapters in terms of competitive play...

 

Ad regardless of how good Reivers are... you won't find any Primaris in my army...

[Firepower]

Chapter Approved is rumored to be jacking up the cost of Ravens, but more importantly Twin Assault Cannons to 44 points and Hurricanes to 10 a pop.  The LRC is already a pricey unit

 

The TLAC price hike is no doubt due to Razor spam more than anything.  I really dislike how this system of universal weapon points can screw some units because others spam the gun.  But really, 10 point Hurricanes is fair.  They really underestimated how nasty they would be.

 

Other than point adjustments, there doesn't seem to be any news of note regarding C:SM, rather mostly dexes that are actually in need of attention.

Edited November 10, 2017 by Firepower

[_luca_93]

Vanguard veterans ; Stormraven ; Reivers ; Helbrecht ; Rhino / Razorback

 

Imho the best options are these.

 

Vanguard : High choice of weapons, ready for every situation ; to not to forget double Chainsword for a massive saturation .

 

Stormraven : Faster than a land raider ; Cheaper ; Hard to hit ; Moar dakka dakka ; can carry a dreadnought ! - In the first turn, you will be over the enemy lines, with the possibility to disembark a dread in the second turn.

 

Reivers ; can deep strike ; cheap ; 10 reivers have 20 wounds, not really bad !

 

Helbrecht ; Big. Really big.

 

Rhino : rhino/ razorback rush seems interesting, in this edition the Metal Bawkses seems to made their job. Without to forget, that can we disembark from them, make rhino charge ( absorbing overwatch fire ) then charge with the troop.

Edited November 10, 2017 by varg_vikernes

[Medjugorje]

We are better than Assault Squads. We are effectively a point cheaper. Medj we aren’t the best in the game. But we certainly aren’t in a bad place anymore either.

i dont understand why you think so. Assault Squads are the same just 3 points more and much better possibility to arrive in close combat. Crusadersquads need a vehicle, and vehicles in this edition are very strong but not as transport (because enemy will suround you too quickly)... they are strong as the unit itself (profile etc).

[Medjugorje]

i tried rino rush a few times... its funny yeah. But not competitive as we need it. I played against casual necron lists and it was very hard. (and hey, Necrons are very weak and my enemies dont used to be veteran players!!!)

[Schlitzaf]

I don’t use Rhino’s and I run a Black Tide with Cenos and Marshall with Rites of War. The Crusader Squads do exactly what I need them to do. Hold the Center. With support from Intercessors they provide a hard to dislodge center that has immunity to battleshock.

 

Assault Squads lack effective the ability to take useful damage specials like meltagun or plasma and if you give Sgt a PowSword is far more finicky. If you want a simple demonstration why it’s nice Crusader Squads have 3 PowWeapon Attacks. 3 Attacks. 2 Hits. 1 Wound and 75% for a dead marine. Vs 2 Attacks 1.32 hits. 66 Wounds. Then 55% chance for a Dead Marine.

 

20% increase in damage. (If curious. 2 Attacks. 1.32 Hit. 66 wound. 22 percent with without PowSword. The damages are same with non-Sword favored.) So in that sense it could be argued that the Sword is useless. But it changes the chance for reroll. And once you sword is used vs 4+ or lower Sv Units the advantage becomes more apparent.

 

Additionally once you add a basic Marshall’s reroll. 3 to 2. 2.3 then 1.15 to 1.25 with Castellen is 1.05 Wounds. With Regular, 2 to 1.32, 1.5 then 0.75 wounds, .87 wounds with Sv Sv. 0.72. Adding 2 normal you have .27 or 0.99. Which is 0.06. A small difference.

 

However the assault squad will be Outrider and you have -2 CP. And Helbrect cannot have a pack if you wanted to go that route. Additionally, for every 4 Assault Marines with Pack you have 1 more Marine in a Crusader Squad. At 5 Assault Marine the difference will come in the 2nd Pow Weapon. A 10 man Assault Marine Squad gives 12 Man Crusader Squad and 2 PowWeapon. The ASM for those buffs, needs a Castallen and Marshall and additional 37 Points.

 

Those 37 Points could have bought two MeltaGuns or Three Plasmaguns. For the Crusader Squads. Additionally if you want to strike those Assault Marines and Castallen/Marshall you need 5 more Units in Board.

 

If you don’t strike them, while faster they are just as likely to die as Crusader Squad. In which case you’d rather have the more durable Crusader Squad. Sense the enemy will likely move up first. If you start 24” apart, they move atleast 6” you are 18” apart. In case the packs more likely get you in charge range.

 

However if they are meched up they will be 12”-15” away more likely. And your Crusaders move 6” in Melta/Pistol/Etc Range. And have an 8” Charge or 10” Charge. In which case the packs you paid for were useless. Once you Crusaders are stuck in they are forced to withdraw their unit or stick in. If forced to withdraw that leaves them a unit down. And forced them to wipe the Crusaders or play pumper cars.

 

But of course the question here beyond is looking at our good Crusaders and Assault Marines is what we have supporting them. Cenos which either eat a 105/100ish point unit of shooting can or save a tide from shock murder.

 

The Crusaders larger squad and ATKNF, at worse still presents an LD8 rerollable block. Even if you lose 6-7 models, you only have 1/6-1/3 chance of failing and losing a model. Furthermore, Emperor’s Champion one of the easiest ways we have to open a 2nd Detachment cannot pack. So to come about and answer your question.

 

Crusader Squads are significantly better than ASM, because they are cheaper. That one point makes a difference. The slowness shouldn’t matter save vs straight gun line. And their is less of a tax to take them in the first place and utilize them.

 

It’s not simply Crusader Squad v Assault Marines. It is how both units fit into the army and how we play and utilize their strength and weaknesses. And a BT force if you want to a BT army best utilizing our competitive abilities will capitalize on our best innate strengths.

[Thrown Pommel]

Hey guys, I tried my hand at making a strong list and posted it the other day. Link below if your interested I think it could do pretty well!

 

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/341178-strong-black-templars-2000-pts/?p=4927526

[Ciler]

Chapter Approved is rumored to be jacking up the cost of Ravens, but more importantly Twin Assault Cannons to 44 points and Hurricanes to 10 a pop.  The LRC is already a pricey unit

 

The TLAC price hike is no doubt due to Razor spam more than anything.  I really dislike how this system of universal weapon points can screw some units because others spam the gun.  But really, 10 point Hurricanes is fair.  They really underestimated how nasty they would be.

 

Other than point adjustments, there doesn't seem to be any news of note regarding C:SM, rather mostly dexes that are actually in need of attention.

Not exactly. You will note that most twin linked weapons were 2x the price of the single weapon (lascan and melta spring to mind). TL heavy bolter had a significant discount (17 instead of 20, or 15%) but TLAC had an even more significant discount of 35 instead of 42 (17%), and hurricane bolters were just ridiculously undercosted at 4 instead of 6 points (33%). So the TLAC and hurricane were arguably underpriced initially.

 

Also, the universal weapon points should not screw other units, if you want to screw razorbacks, all you have to do is increase the base cost of a razorback (which they did).

[Stemplar]

My 2 cents: have had great success last few games running Helbrecht and a Castellan together for the buffs. Line them up surrounded by two Las cannon razorbacks and two Las cannon venerable dreads. Team that with two units of deep striking termies who come in when they're needed. Battalion CPs gained by 2 5 man choppy squads and a shooty squad that sits on an objective somewhere.

[Medjugorje]

its totally wrong to think that assault squad would cost more then a crusadersquad. A crusadersquad needs a transport.

 

And I just compare both units if they are equipped for close combat. With special weapons etc its different, i know.

[Ciler]

My 2 cents: have had great success last few games running Helbrecht and a Castellan together for the buffs. Line them up surrounded by two Las cannon razorbacks and two Las cannon venerable dreads.

Helbrecht used in that setup is a very costly option, especially since his statline, wargear and +1S special ability will go entirely unused. A plain captain will essentially achieve the same effect, except for rerolls on 2s arguably.

[Stemplar]

 

My 2 cents: have had great success last few games running Helbrecht and a Castellan together for the buffs. Line them up surrounded by two Las cannon razorbacks and two Las cannon venerable dreads.

Helbrecht used in that setup is a very costly option, especially since his statline, wargear and +1S special ability will go entirely unused. A plain captain will essentially achieve the same effect, except for rerolls on 2s arguably.

I roll a lot of 2s. And as soon as troops disembark they're S5. As is the LT.

[Marshal_von_Speer]

 

We are better than Assault Squads. We are effectively a point cheaper. Medj we aren’t the best in the game. But we certainly aren’t in a bad place anymore either.

i dont understand why you think so. Assault Squads are the same just 3 points more and much better possibility to arrive in close combat. Crusadersquads need a vehicle, and vehicles in this edition are very strong but not as transport (because enemy will suround you too quickly)... they are strong as the unit itself (profile etc).

 

 

 

i tried rino rush a few times... its funny yeah. But not competitive as we need it. I played against casual necron lists and it was very hard. (and hey, Necrons are very weak and my enemies dont used to be veteran players!!!)

 

 

its totally wrong to think that assault squad would cost more then a crusadersquad. A crusadersquad needs a transport.

 

And I just compare both units if they are equipped for close combat. With special weapons etc its different, i know.

 

The Transport's (Rhinos) main purpose in my lists:

- regulate the number of drops should I really need first turn,

- protecting infantry from incoming fire during the game. 

 

Second purposes:

- getting infantry across the field,

- serving as a shot- / LoS-blocker.

 

Effective use of transports can be tricky, due to the way disembarkement works. All it needs is a bit of "thinking ahead".

[Aegir_Einarsson]

And as the last point overwatch soak:). Charge with vehicle and then with infantry.