Making Black Templars Competitive, or at Least Strong, in 8e

[Ciler]

 

 

My 2 cents: have had great success last few games running Helbrecht and a Castellan together for the buffs. Line them up surrounded by two Las cannon razorbacks and two Las cannon venerable dreads.

Helbrecht used in that setup is a very costly option, especially since his statline, wargear and +1S special ability will go entirely unused. A plain captain will essentially achieve the same effect, except for rerolls on 2s arguably.

 

I roll a lot of 2s. And as soon as troops disembark they're S5. As is the LT.

 

I don't see how Helbrecht could conceivably be within 6" of 2 tanks and 2 dreads in the back field and 2 squads of termies in enemy lines. Furthermore, keep in mind that Helbrecht's rule applies to models within 6", not units.

[Schlitzaf]

A Crusader Squad Medj only needs a transport if you face a static Gunline in a Killpoint Mission. Or you want push to backfield. Or if you lack effective target saturation. I don’t run transports and I found I don’t really need them.

 

But the biggest take away about a Crusader Squad it be be literally whatever you need beside a Hammer. It can however be an effective anvil and in close combat point for point it puts as much attacked as naked Vangaurd with Pack Squad. If you do Equal Init/Neo’s (which you should always be doing outside 5 Man MSU Backfield or Razor Spam).

 

That said I don‘t run transports as I have 11-12 “Special” Deployers. 2 Reivars, 3 Scions, 2 Ponies, 2 Deathriders, JetCastallen (sometimes), and 2 Rattlings. If approved rumors are true, I will have an Interceptor Squad among my special deployers.

 

Which on the table top those units ended up playing similar roles to Transports. They come down and draw fire away from my Intercessor and Crusader Squad Center. Alongside my Cenos/Rites of War Marshall, even losing 7-8 marines in a turn in my tide squads doesn’t result in further loses.

 

Do you need transports? I wholeheartedly disagree, if the core question is do you need proper target saturation? Then yes. My Tide List works because I have as the saying goes “12” distraction Carnifexes. To draw enemy fire as I push up field with my infantry.

 

A good tide list will deny the enemy their anti-armor. I have several 2W units which end up eating Anti-Tank. But I simply have so many of them a list with 8-9 Lascannons which could effectively cripple two Rhino only functional kills 1 of my multiple 2W Squads.

 

Now Units like Scions can be problematic, but there I use my Crusader Squads as chaff. If I deploy my Intercessors behind and Crusaders in front I can deny 12” Rapid. My remaining 2W units all come from reserve. If you are trying to use Crusaders like they are a Hammer you be will be sad.

 

Crusaders are Anvils, cheap and able deploy mass weapons in mass or or in 13-15 Man blocks and function as one of the more durable chaff units in the game. The closest equivalent is to CSM Squads whom will cost 14 Points or the cost of a Marine. For the same unit we get a special weapon.

 

And have two sources of Shock immunity over just 1.

[Aegir_Einarsson]

Now Units like Scions can be problematic, but there I use my Crusader Squads as chaff. If I deploy my Intercessors behind and Crusaders in front I can deny 12” Rapid. My remaining 2W units all come from reserve. If you are trying to use Crusaders like they are a Hammer you be will be sad.

 

 

Why Scions might be problematic at the moment?

[Schlitzaf]

That was in reference to how my army has a lot of two wound models and how overcharged Plasma makes mincemeat/incredibly effective vs such units

[Aegir_Einarsson]

Ok. I didn't understand correctly. Sorry for that.

[Ciler]

Since the case of scions has been brought up, are we for the purpose of this thread considering only armies purely made of BT space marines, or are allies also intended to be part of the discussion ?

[Schlitzaf]

Since the case of scions has been brought up, are we for the purpose of this thread considering only armies purely made of BT space marines, or are allies also intended to be part of the discussion ?

I mean a Pure BT List for purpose of competitive is not gonna work. Barring an adaption of AssBack Spam. Replacing Tacticals with Crusader Squads. But within an army, Soup’ing or not, is how can we best leverage our abilities competitively.

 

A Soup List still has to answer that fundamental question of “what does a Black Templar Army bring to a Competitive Table”

[Aegir_Einarsson]

In my opinion best troops option that is unique, And character killer - EC. Cheap enough to open second batalion slot. That is uniqe And strong.

Also crusaders helm is nice with cheap captain at the backfield giving him 9" aura, Also something uniqe.

Also I think that re-roll charge distance is good for some hard hitters like assault terminators backed up with Chaplain with tda.

[Marshal_Roujakis]

 

Since the case of scions has been brought up, are we for the purpose of this thread considering only armies purely made of BT space marines, or are allies also intended to be part of the discussion ?

I mean a Pure BT List for purpose of competitive is not gonna work. Barring an adaption of AssBack Spam. Replacing Tacticals with Crusader Squads. But within an army, Soup’ing or not, is how can we best leverage our abilities competitively.

 

 

This is the one true fact of the matter in regards to the current setting of Black Templars in regards to the tournament environment... regardless of how you build your army up for competitive play, if you're not going to open up your army to whatever options that are necessary to eliminate your enemy then you won't be winning many tournaments...

 

If you just want a strong pure BT list, it can still be done, but it will struggle against most metas and against more currently released Codices... it will be extremely challenging, but it can still be done... but if you want to take the logical and easier way to play competitively, then Allies would be our best bet...

 

I've won a few games with a pure BT army in 8th... and they don't even have a speck of Primaris in them... but instead of Primaris, I rely heavily on Dreeadnoughts and Terminators using Vanguard army builds and Space Marine Air Force to do most of the heavy lifting... it's always an uphill battle, but not a lot of people usually can match a heavily built air detachment...

[Stemplar]

Ciler:

I don't see how Helbrecht could conceivably be within 6" of 2 tanks and 2 dreads in the back field and 2 squads of termies in enemy lines. Furthermore, keep in mind that Helbrecht's rule applies to models within 6", not units.

 

Sorry ... wasn't clear. I keep Helbrecht/Lt with the tanks and dreads and march them up. Then bring in terminators with a captain in term armour to deep strike behind lines or in support somewhere or to take a couple of objectives.

 

I'm not saying that would compete at tournament level, but the last few games it's done really well.

 

Remembering it's often about the objectives and not necessarily about killing everything everywhere.

Edited November 13, 2017 by Stemplar

[Medjugorje]

Does anyone saw or heared about a tournament-list which has won anything?

[Marshal_Roujakis]

Does anyone saw or heard about a tournament-list which has won anything?

 

There was 1 or 2 lists that won 2nd place in the Nova Tournament that was using some Templars plus other Allies, but this was in 7th ed. mainly because 8th ed. wasn't even a thing yet when Nova was happening, we might get another one during a massive tournament event next year, but I'd wager there won't really be a big contender in regards to BT since the releases for 8th hasn't settled down yet... I mean it's just been a few weeks since the Tyranids and Eldar releases, so people would still be trying to getting used to them... I won't be expecting them to be putting top tier lists on the tournament settings just yet...

 

But even in my meta, Templars have won 1-2 tournaments this year... not mine though... I usually go for the painting competitions :p

 

There's a guy in my local GW that brings his Templars + Knight + Mechanicus during tournaments and he's quite reviled for being nasty in range with the Dakka Knight and the heavy Mechanicus shooting and removing swathes off the table with his Templar Air Force and Vanguard combination...

[Schlitzaf]

Didn’t we have some placements in 5th Ed post FAQ? Too?

[Marshal Wolfhart]

In 5th we were top notch for a while, as far as marines go. That said, this thread is about 8th, so there's another "ye olden days" derailing prevented :P

 

In 8th there certainly is no pure BT list that would hit the top tables. What gets there in marines always has allies, assassins and tempestus for the most part. Oh and they tend to bring a certain primarch... ;)

That said, what we get from our codex isn't what defines the competitive meta. Assault in general is somewhere between punishing and worthless for marines, other chapters do the shooty better and thus we don't see tournament tables.

 

This doesn't mean we can't build some rock hard lists. Those will, however, rely on deep strike assault gambles or some other random shenanigans, as well as a few allies for psychic defense.

[Medjugorje]

+1

 

but many of these lists maybe stronger if you change the chapter tactics.

[Closet Skeleton]

This list would be awful, don't even bother with it.

 

Vanguard detachment; Black Templars

 

HQ

Helbrecht

 

Grimaldus

total 290

 

Elites

5 Cataphracti terminators, power fist and storm bolter sergeant, rest with twin lightning claws

 

5 Cataphracti terminators, power fist and storm bolter sergeant, rest with twin lightning claws

 

5 Cataphracti terminators, power fist and storm bolter sergeant, rest with twin lightning claws

 

5 Cataphracti terminators, power fist and storm bolter sergeant, rest with twin lightning claws

 

7 Vanguard Veterans, sergeant with thunder hammer and chainsword, rest with storm shield and chainsword

 

total 1006

 

Dedicated Transport

Drop Pod

95

 

detachment total 1391

 

Battalion detachment, Cadian

HQ

Company Commander, warlord trait Old Grudges, Relic of lost Cadia

 

Company commander

 

total 60 points

 

Troops

5 Tempestus Scions

50 points

 

5 Tempestus Scions

50 points

 

5 Tempestus Scions

50 points

 

total 150 points

 

Heavy Support

Heavy weapon team, mortars

 

Heavy weapon team, mortars

 

Heavy weapon team, mortars

 

total 99 points

detachment total 309 points

 

Battalion detachment, Cadian

HQ

Company Commander, warlord trait Old Grudges, Relic of lost Cadia

 

Company commander

 

total 60 points

 

Troops

5 Tempestus Scions

50 points

 

5 Tempestus Scions

50 points

 

Infantry squad

40 points

 

total 140 points

 

Heavy Support

Heavy weapon team, mortars

 

Heavy weapon team, mortars

 

Heavy weapon team, mortars

 

total 99 points

detachment total 299 points

 

army total 1999 points

 

Alternate More-tar version, swap one or both battalions for

 

Spearheard

Company Commander

 

Company Commander

 

5 ratlings to push infiltrators back from your refused flank

 

3 Mortar teams

3 Mortar teams

3 Mortar teams

3 Mortar teams

3 Mortar teams

3 Mortar teams

 

293 points

Edited November 15, 2017 by Closet Skeleton

[Marshal_Roujakis]

+1

 

but many of these lists maybe stronger if you change the chapter tactics.

 

The issue is that some of the list needs to use BT Chapter Tactics just because of Crusader Squads advantages over Tacticals, that's why some of the best allied list usually has Space Wolves or Templars written on them... sure there are scout taxes that people use instead in tournament settings, but there are also those MSU spam list that relies on having those extra Special Weapons to do some heavy lifting and spamming more than a necessary number of Heavy Weapons using Crusader Squads... it can be better with other Chapter Tactics, but you won't be able to unlock Crusader Squads though... 

[Schlitzaf]

Aye, like you should read our Chapter Tactics as “(insert mediocre ability) + baring debatably Grey Hunters best Tactical Squads Variants in game bar none.” As I have said in the past

[Medjugorje]

Can you show me a known list with Crusader units.

 

I would say it is not far as good as Space Marines with Girlyman or Salamanders.

[Aegir_Einarsson]

What is better in your opinion lrc + Stormraven or two Stormravens.

 

I think that i need two big threats to split enemy power, despite i love lrc i don't like it beeing charged...

[Ciler]

LRC + Raven would be my go-to setup, but that's nearly 700 points...

[_luca_93]

What do you think brothers about melee oriented company veterans on bike?

[Medjugorje]

What is better in your opinion lrc + Stormraven or two Stormravens.

 

I think that i need two big threats to split enemy power, despite i love lrc i don't like it beeing charged...

 

in general - 2 Stormraven. But if you have Tigurius then it would be a LRC + Stormraven.

[Aegir_Einarsson]

Ciler i know, but is Nice And fast gin platform And transport as well. With hq there are about 1000 points And 1000 points to spare for troops.

 

I have LRC And im looking to have some reason to use it.... . Despite i know that Stormraven is better:/

[Firepower]

LRC works well with a Raven by splitting up shooting from your opponent, generally. If you imprint the idea that the LRC is to charge up close and deploy smashes, while using Raven as a gun platform, the LRC easily seems a bigger threat.