Making Black Templars Competitive, or at Least Strong, in 8e

[allegedlynerdy]

List that's served me fairly well in a couple of test games:

 

Battalion Detachment

 

HQ:

 

Chaplain, Plasma Pistol

 

Chaplain, Jumppack, Powerfist, Relic: Armor Indomitus

 

Emperor's Champion

 

256 pts

 

Crusader Squad, Swordbrother 2x LC, Meltagun, 5x chainsword Initiate

 

Crusader Squad, Swordbrother Combimelta Powerfist, Meltagun, 5x chainsword Initiate

 

Crusader Squad, sword brother combiplas Powersword, plasmacannon, plasmagun 2x Bolter initiate, 5x bolter neophyte

 

2x crusader squad, swordbrother Combimelta Powersword, meltagun, 3x chainsword Initiate, 5x combat knife initiate.

 

Crusader Squad, swordbrother boltpistol chainsword, 5x chainsword Initiate

 

Total:830 pts

 

Elites:

 

Apothecary

 

Company Ancient

 

Sternguard, 4 combiplas and plasmacannon

 

Vanguard, Sergeant with Plasmapistol Powersword, Plasmapistol Powersword vet, 2x lightning claws, boltpistol chainsword, Jumppacks

 

Venerable dread, 2x autocannon, 2x lascannon

 

Total: 598 pts

 

Heavy Support

 

Landraider Crusader, multi-meltas

 

Total: 314

 

List total: 1998 pts

 

Tactics: sternguard, heavy weapon crusaders, dread form firing line. Landraider has first two crusader squads of seven and chaplain with emperorschampion. Jump chaplain accompanies vanguard in deepstrike. Remaining crusaders move up together or screen the gunline.

[Medjugorje]

i thought we talking about competitive play. Sorry, this list is a nice one but not good in a competitive way.

[Schlitzaf]

So in my list run as iterated elsewhere a tide list. Currently my main flaw or main point of failure is my vulnerable flanks. Notable in that sense I deploy centered to best respond to my central force to where I needed to go.

 

It’s easy as the saying goes to backdoor. Currently I run a DIY Biker Crusader to protect flanks, other options are Assault Cannon Dreads or 2 3-4 Man Aggressors. Or forgoing flank protection entirely with 2 I Interceptors if approved is true.

 

Other variants included doing Crusader Squad support. But I found they didn’t last long enough to provide backdoor prevent at 8-10 Man (I am never ceased to be amazed by the difference of durability between a 13-15 Man vs 8-10 Man). Bikers I am finding the issue mostly being they are bikers and terrain is highly annoying. (Otherwise they are being keep functional).

 

Other option is forgo one of the two flanks and deploy a puesdo stacked flank. Or have Gaurd Units/CenterForce/Flankers. But I tangent. For 130-150 range what have you found been an effective road bump that can deny deep strikes? Bikers have been doing well, only useful has been mobility on very dense boards.

[allegedlynerdy]

i thought we talking about competitive play. Sorry, this list is a nice one but not good in a competitive way.

Couldn't tell if you were referring to my list- if you were I've gone up against some pretty tournament strong assault cannon Guilliman marine lists and a Tyranid player that won a GT in 8th with his nids (my game was after codex Tyranids released so he was experimenting with new stuff) but the list held it's own far better than anything else I've seen that wasn't a flavor of the month competitive list.

[Brother Christopher]

I am leaning towards Medjugorje's assessment - the list most definitely doesn't look like something efficient in a spam-heavy competitive environment. However, I must say I'm very glad to hear that you did good with the army. From my point of view, the list looks great - very flavourful and seems to have all the basics covered. Definitely something I'd myself like to give a go!

[Schlitzaf]

Yeah because that list you definitely leverage a Vangaurd atleast and maybe even a second battalion. You definitely over spent a few times looking at that list or more specifically you could have gotten a different set of weapons for better output Edited November 17, 2017 by Schlitzaf

[allegedlynerdy]

I am leaning towards Medjugorje's assessment - the list most definitely doesn't look like something efficient in a spam-heavy competitive environment. However, I must say I'm very glad to hear that you did good with the army. From my point of view, the list looks great - very flavourful and seems to have all the basics covered. Definitely something I'd myself like to give a go!

Perhaps. It might be that a black tide esque list is concerning to a lot of the players I've gone against. I am the only Black Templars player in my gaming group. A player not used to a lot of infantry that's marine strength and they weren't sure what to do.

 

Yeah because that list you definitely leverage a Vangaurd atleast and maybe even a second battalion. You definitely over spent a few times looking at that list or more specifically you could have gotten a different set of weapons for better output

A second detachment actually is a good suggestion, thank you. Now what would you suggest for better output weapons, and on which units?

[Medjugorje]

https://www.instagram.com/p/Bb5U_nflpU2/

 

 

nothin special there for close combat or for templars especially. 

And it goes deeper,... Brimstones still 3 Points, ...

Edited November 25, 2017 by Medjugorje

[Schlitzaf]

Well their is little box above Grey Knights. So that might be where Neophyte change happens if it exists.

[Ciler]

https://www.instagram.com/p/Bb5U_nflpU2/

 

 

nothin special there for close combat or for templars especially. 

And it goes deeper,... Brimstones still 3 Points, ...

+25 pts on a LRC, nothing special, well excuse me...

[Aegir_Einarsson]

Where said you saw that?

I can't see LRC...

[SydonianDragoon404]

25 points is not too bad, you basically take into account the point cost increases of Hurricane Bolters and the Twin Assault Cannon. Being perfectly honest, yes those weapons were slightly undercosted before IMO. The Land Raider as a platform is what is not appropriately costed at the moment, so yes it is a bummer that that our variant in particular went up because of the changes. 

 

For me personally, I'll have to move some points around and potentially turn a crusader squad into a scout squad, get rid of a heavy weapon here or there to account for the point cost changes. 25 points is equivalent to one lascannon, or 2 astartes in power armor. 

 

I'm just glad that Helbrecht, EC, and Grimaldus didn't see point increases. That was my biggest fear. 

Edited November 25, 2017 by SydonianDragoon404

[Marshal Arthur]

I think he’s referring to the weapon cost changes. Assault cannons and hurricane bolter a went up so the LRC went up. I really hope neophyte and land raiders chassis points drop in the future. One has literally no reason to be priced the same as scouts and the other is over priced as is. But I guess I’ll have to wait for the next daw in March. At least we have a date on those now.

[Schlitzaf]

There is another be another chapter approved in March?

[Marshal Arthur]

They said they'll release faqs twice a year to adjust points. Every army will get a faq two weeks after their codex drops to clarify rules and all point changes will be handled in twice a year faqs (one in March the other in December). Odds are it'll mostly cover recent releases but we can at least hold some hope that our points will be adjusted every now and again.

[Aegir_Einarsson]

Ok. Now I understand.

But honestly, What is the reason to take LRC when you can have SR? It can't be locked in combat it can fall back And shoot.... my biggest issue with LRC is that it should deliver troops to the middle of the battle. But when it make it it is useless , because locked in combat...

 

Any thoughts on that?

[Marshal Arthur]

If it had some version of the superheavy rule where it could still fire after falling back or even had some close combat punch it wouldn't be too bad. Or hell give it it's own tank shock rule so it can literally break the enemy line. Any of those would be great and give it a distinct role instead of just a grounded stormraven.

[Ciler]

Ok. Now I understand.

But honestly, What is the reason to take LRC when you can have SR? It can't be locked in combat it can fall back And shoot.... my biggest issue with LRC is that it should deliver troops to the middle of the battle. But when it make it it is useless , because locked in combat...

 

Any thoughts on that?

The SR went up 50 points... Same increased cost for weapons, and then an extra 20 pts on the SR itself.

[Schlitzaf]

So based on approved; We didn't get any nice little toys. We got a nice sidegrade however with smite spammers given a point boost (Malefic and Primaris, Malefic especially) our stratagem is back to being more relevant. No change in Neophytes is....painful. I am first to point out the flexibility of Neophytes, but that doesn't change the fact we shouldn't be paying 11 points. 9 Point range likely where about they should be priced.

 

But the most important change, for any Marine with the Back nerf, will the Interceptor change. However I think its important now to take an important set and look at our army. I will assume mostly pure for the below analysis. And I am comparing Crusader Squads to now Intercessors current point.

 

Crusaders (assuming Equal Init to Neo)

6 Points Per an Attack. If we count shooting it'll be 4 Points an Attack

Crusader Squad Optimal Range will be around 7'-12'.

Good Diversity of viable setups, 6/4 Fire Support, 5 Man MSU Backrow or Midrow

--13 to 15 Man Tide Squads for holding center.

Shotgun are free on Neo's and Flamers are Cheaper for flank support

Melee Focused Units Don't Pay for Chaff

Can Engage Heavy Armor in addition to Light/Medium

Tide has Larger Footprint.

MSU Squads die to swift breeze

12 Points an Model.

 

vs

 

Intercessors (Assuming PowSword and Rifle)

9 Points per an Attack. 4.25 Points an Attack if in Optimal Shooting

Intercessor Optimal Range is 9"-15"

9 Points a Wound. Can 10 or 11 Points.

Plasma Hurts. Alot

Three setups. Sniper, Support and Push.

--All three setups are able to fight off Bully Units

--All Three clock in at around 100 points for 5

Backfield Snipers pay for their additional attack

Small footprint, harder to hide out of LOS and transport on the battlefield

Only effective vs Light to Medium, with Snipers having middling vs Heavy

Can two about 2 Intercessors per 1 Tide

 

-------

So the question of Intercessor vs Crusader Squad. The difference lays in durability and offensive potential. Crusader offensive are better. They are a swiss army of answers. Intercessors will have about 1 more point per every 3 Models in a Tide Squad. But have 2 less attacks normally. Or 1 less attack if we include shooting. They will lack the ability to threaten heavy armor.

 

The question of which is better for us, is for me right now. I have literally no idea. Intend to continue running both. But they are very very similar. With Crusader diversity of answering vs Intercessor better optimal engagement range.