Chapter Approved changes and what they mean for SM

[Galron]

Yeah I have a Raptor as well and with its point cost I haven't put it on the field this edition. Since I am realigning my armies and selling off two and building up from points I have available a third power armor army(Minotaurs) I will have to repaint it and several other aircraft anyway but they are very much farther back burner than an elder army I picked up test models for.

 

I wonder will FW do enough of a price drop to make them worth it? I have lots of dakka in all my armies, its not really a question of needing the extra firepower. Its a question of them making it lower enough in points to be competitive with Storm Ravens. I love rule of cool, but I have other cool things I like to bring and not enough time to get in games to use them either.

[Claws and Effect]

Around 300 with the base loadout woud work. Yeah, it trades transport capacity for guns. But it trades it for a LOT of guns.

[Hopper21]

Yeah I have a Raptor as well and with its point cost I haven't put it on the field this edition. Since I am realigning my armies and selling off two and building up from points I have available a third power armor army(Minotaurs) I will have to repaint it and several other aircraft anyway but they are very much farther back burner than an elder army I picked up test models for.

 

I wonder will FW do enough of a price drop to make them worth it? I have lots of dakka in all my armies, its not really a question of needing the extra firepower. Its a question of them making it lower enough in points to be competitive with Storm Ravens. I love rule of cool, but I have other cool things I like to bring and not enough time to get in games to use them either.

I run mine all the time at its current price point. I love it, especially parked next to GMAN. I do hope reductions in primaris stuff and FW stuff (raptor) will absorb the price hike in in assault cannons, razorbacks and GMAN.

[Galron]

Yeah, I don't use Girlyman. There's no reason for Lord of all Mankind to appear at every little company level skirmish. Saves points for other things. Currently working on the only chapter that has an excuse to bring special characters for every game, Minotaurs, they never split up the chapter and the boss man always leads from the front.

 

I agree though 300ish points is doable. Caestus needs to drop to roughly the same if not a little lower. Yeah it has nice transport ability, especially since it can carry ten terminators. But then why would you transport terminators in the first place since they deep strike T1? There's a lot of FW vehicles that need a price reduction on both marine and guard sides of things. Their small and medium superheavies are almost unplayable compared to what the Guard get in their codex.

[Galron]

So I just read the warhammer community update about this. I thought it was a joking wishlist about maleficent lords being 80 points. Wow. Now that we know they are redoing the points for FW products too, what are you guys expecting?

 

I am hoping for pretty much across the board price drops on all FW Imperial vehicles(eldar too but that's another topic). Already confirmed 100 point drop for the Sicaran Venator which will go a long way to making it justifiable to bring. Hoping for a drop on the Scorpius and other Sicaran models too.

 

I found it amusing they all but admit they are increasing the point cost on popular models like Gurlyman and Celestine and dropping the price on less popular models. I don't know how you guys build armies but that works great for mesince I don't use any of the popular models for the most part. But wow 50 point increase on Maleficent lords is insane, I never fought any but always read about these armies of them running rampant on the field smiting everything in their path so this should help.

[General Strike]

I just want the point drops on Primaris and DG to be true.

[Frater Cornelius]

Hope that Guilliman does not get neutered. Right now, he is keeping Marines afloat against some of the stronger books.

[Hopper21]

Hope that Guilliman does not get neutered. Right now, he is keeping Marines afloat against some of the stronger books.

Ahmen brother.

[The Unseen]

Hope that Guilliman does not get neutered. Right now, he is keeping Marines afloat against some of the stronger books.

AKA "Don't nerf my cheese until you nerf the other guys cheese! Wah!"

He needs to be hit with the nerf bat hard.

[Ishagu]

The Sicaran Venator has a 100+ point drop.

 

This is now the best dedicated ranged tank unit in the Marine army.

For a point cost of about 200 you are getting far, far, far more than a Predator in terms of mobility, firepower and durability.

 

I can't imagine not taking one.

Edited November 22, 2017 by Ishagu

[Kallas]

The Sicaran Venator has a 100+ point drop.

 

This is now the best dedicated ranged tank unit in the Marine army.

For a point cost of about 200 you are getting far, far, far more than a Predator in terms of mobility, firepower and durability.

 

I can't imagine not taking one.

Urgh. I hope they do something for the Predator then, other than dropping the Autocannon by 9pts. It's already less efficient in general than two Razorbacks (even with their price increase).

 

Kind of sad that the Warhammer Community post didn't mention datasheets changing or not.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

The Sicaran Venator has a 100+ point drop.

 

This is now the best dedicated ranged tank unit in the Marine army.

For a point cost of about 200 you are getting far, far, far more than a Predator in terms of mobility, firepower and durability.

 

I can't imagine not taking one.

 

I can.

[Frater Cornelius]

Me too, because I do not own one :P

[Ishagu]

Time to buy one :-D

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Time to buy one :-D

You buying? I'll send you my shipping address.... plus, there are still TOs that disallow FW units.

Edited November 22, 2017 by Iron Father Ferrum

[Sonoftherubric21]

 

Time to buy one :-D

You buying? I'll send you my shipping address.... plus, there are still TOs that disallow FW units.

 

 

Pretty rare around my parts. FW is almost always allowed barring 1000 points or less tourneys. Its pretty much widely accepted with no issue in use. 

[Bremon]

 

Hope that Guilliman does not get neutered. Right now, he is keeping Marines afloat against some of the stronger books.

AKA "Don't nerf my cheese until you nerf the other guys cheese! Wah!"

He needs to be hit with the nerf bat hard.

is +25 points hard enough?

[TrexPushups]

 

 

Hope that Guilliman does not get neutered. Right now, he is keeping Marines afloat against some of the stronger books.

AKA "Don't nerf my cheese until you nerf the other guys cheese! Wah!"

He needs to be hit with the nerf bat hard.

is +25 points hard enough?

Not sure but that 25 points and an increase in Razorback costs is going to hit the most popular variant pretty hard.

[Race Bannon]

"If you build it, they will come", so to speak.  GW made it so that number-crunchers could figure out the RB was a winner.  GW likely saw the writing on the tournament wall and "rebalanced" the unit :P

 

SO ... how to kitbash a Sicaran.  Challenge accepted!

[Tyberos the Red Wake]

 

Hope that Guilliman does not get neutered. Right now, he is keeping Marines afloat against some of the stronger books.

AKA "Don't nerf my cheese until you nerf the other guys cheese! Wah!"

He needs to be hit with the nerf bat hard.

 

 

AKA a valid argument.

No one is denying Guilliman is OP. But here is REALITY.

 

Let's say the game's absolute balanced power ceiling is 100. Guilliman is, let's say 125. 150. Whatever you want. You could say that it's a fact that Guilliman is unbalanced.

 

However, here's some more facts for you.

 

Guilliman is not the only unbalanced unit above level 100. FACT.

 

Lowering Guilliman to 100 does not fix any of the other problems. FACT.

 

Lowering Guilliman does not help all the sub-100 Space Marine units. FACT.

 

So yeah, "don't nerf my cheese" is a valid "whine" if they aren't going to fix ALL THE OTHER :cuss: too. And I don't even play Guilliman or Ultramarines.

[The Unseen]

 

 

 

Hope that Guilliman does not get neutered. Right now, he is keeping Marines afloat against some of the stronger books.

AKA "Don't nerf my cheese until you nerf the other guys cheese! Wah!"

He needs to be hit with the nerf bat hard.

AKA a valid argument.

No one is denying Guilliman is OP. But here is REALITY.

 

Let's say the game's absolute balanced power ceiling is 100. Guilliman is, let's say 125. 150. Whatever you want. You could say that it's a fact that Guilliman is unbalanced.

 

However, here's some more facts for you.

 

Guilliman is not the only unbalanced unit above level 100. FACT.

 

Lowering Guilliman to 100 does not fix any of the other problems. FACT.

 

Lowering Guilliman does not help all the sub-100 Space Marine units. FACT.

 

So yeah, "don't nerf my cheese" is a valid "whine" if they aren't going to fix ALL THE OTHER :cuss: too. And I don't even play Guilliman or Ultramarines.

You need to go back and retake logic lessens brother.

By that "logic" nothing should ever be touched in the name of balance, because there is always something else. So what, GW shouldn't change anything at all until they are prepared to nerf everything above the power curve and buff everything below it? AKA release an entire new edition and every codex at once?

 

Balance changes in any living game or ruleset come in waves, so you can see what effect those changes actually have across the system, and then you can make further adjustments.

 

The fact that Gman alone is holding up the sub-par marine dex lends more force behind nerfing him, not less.

As long as he's around, "marines" (and by that I mean Imperial Soup armies *spits* and Ultramarine armies) are going to do better than they should, and hide how mediocre everything else in their book is, and let everything else in the system that uses the marine dex as a comparison data point also have an inflated power curve. Gman is possibly the single most influential single unit in the game right now, I'll be happy when it's actually a tough decision to bring him or not from a competitive standpoint.

 

So people can take their whining about other people's stronger books and how their particular flavor of OP should be saved until the very last and chuck it into the nearest star.

[Brother Captain Ed]

 

 

 

 

Hope that Guilliman does not get neutered. Right now, he is keeping Marines afloat against some of the stronger books.

AKA "Don't nerf my cheese until you nerf the other guys cheese! Wah!"

He needs to be hit with the nerf bat hard.

AKA a valid argument.

No one is denying Guilliman is OP. But here is REALITY.

 

Let's say the game's absolute balanced power ceiling is 100. Guilliman is, let's say 125. 150. Whatever you want. You could say that it's a fact that Guilliman is unbalanced.

 

However, here's some more facts for you.

 

Guilliman is not the only unbalanced unit above level 100. FACT.

 

Lowering Guilliman to 100 does not fix any of the other problems. FACT.

 

Lowering Guilliman does not help all the sub-100 Space Marine units. FACT.

 

So yeah, "don't nerf my cheese" is a valid "whine" if they aren't going to fix ALL THE OTHER :cuss: too. And I don't even play Guilliman or Ultramarines.

You need to go back and retake logic lessens brother.

By that "logic" nothing should ever be touched in the name of balance, because there is always something else. So what, GW shouldn't change anything at all until they are prepared to nerf everything above the power curve and buff everything below it? AKA release an entire new edition and every codex at once?

 

Balance changes in any living game or ruleset come in waves, so you can see what effect those changes actually have across the system, and then you can make further adjustments.

 

The fact that Gman alone is holding up the sub-par marine dex lends more force behind nerfing him, not less.

As long as he's around, "marines" (and by that I mean Imperial Soup armies *spits* and Ultramarine armies) are going to do better than they should, and hide how mediocre everything else in their book is, and let everything else in the system that uses the marine dex as a comparison data point also have an inflated power curve. Gman is possibly the single most influential single unit in the game right now, I'll be happy when it's actually a tough decision to bring him or not from a competitive standpoint.

 

So people can take their whining about other people's stronger books and how their particular flavor of OP should be saved until the very last and chuck it into the nearest star.

Bro.

 

Show me on the mini where Guilliman touched you.

 

The argument is valid and your personal feelings are blinding you. Guilliman isnt the issue. The issue is that GW insists on releasing characters that act as pillars of an entire codex. Nerfing the character doesn't reign in the character, it neuters the codex. Adjusting the cost of a model is only an appropriate balancing tool when the change makes you think "Hmmm...I guess that does make X more attractive. Maybe I should try it." But there is no X. Nothing comes even close. So, instead of balancing the game, they are simply choosing faction based winners and losers. As players, we have every right to prefer a different approach.

 

Models like Guilliman will only ever have two costs: too little, and too much. At too little they are in every list because the price is worth it. At too much, they simply price the model out of the game.

 

The best thing for Guilliman will be another loyalist Primarch. Or two.

[Tyberos the Red Wake]

By that "logic" nothing should ever be touched in the name of balance, because there is always something else. So what, GW shouldn't change anything at all until they are prepared to nerf everything above the power curve and buff everything below it? AKA release an entire new edition and every codex at once?

 

Why is that not a reasonable demand if the topic is a completely balanced game system? Why is any one unit arbitrarily singled out for a nerf when you know. You KNOW. GW will not balance the game properly.

 

See: Tau 6E. Tau 7E. Eldar 6E. ELDAR 7E. Daemons 6E. DAEMONS 7E.

 

You saying "go ahead nerf Guilliman lol whatever he's OP anyway" and then not give a single about anything else is like asking them to nerf Grav Centurions and saying it's okay for GW TO BUFF THE STRONGEST 6E ARMIES ALL OVER AGAIN.

 

Those who don't study history are doomed to repeat it. The writing is on the wall. Guilliman isn't even the game's biggest problem right now, it's the Imperial keyword and various non-Imperial units.

 

If your car is running slow, do you remove one wheel entirely to "fix" it? Or do you wait for an entire car rebuild? Thinking GW will boost marines because Guilliman got nerfed is very naive, about as naive as thinking they will nerf the entire game to the level of Assault Marines. So then if we know GW can't and won't do any of the proper solutions, why not just let the disadvantaged MEQ players have their Guilliman?

Edited November 23, 2017 by Tyberos the Red Wake

[crazyterran]

I imagine Celestine is going to be 200 by herself, but do we know how much she or cawl have gone up?

[Frater Cornelius]

Guys, take it easy. Yes, some people dislike Guilliman, but that isn't a reason to snap at each other. Be the bigger man and back out. Guilliman wouldn't overcommit either, when there is nothing to be gained ;)

 

Speaking of point balancing, what I hope will happen that enough units become useful in C:SM to open up new Guilliman lists for high end play that leans more on FW and/or a balance between tanks and infantry, a more expensive Guilliman means needing to take cheaper units to compensate.

 

Raven Guard should also look forward to fun times, as it is likely that their preferred units will get a boost, seeing as their lists neither use Guilliman, nor Razorbacks.