Chapter Approved changes and what they mean for SM

[Nusquam]

I meant the chapter of space marines called Raptors, ha. I am surprised Fire Raptors got better.

[Biscuittzz]

Pushing up all Astartes superheavies other than the new Primaris tank is a clear sign that they are trying to sell the model. Quite blatantly imo. 

[Nusquam]

I thought that could be a factor, but the Astreaus is also waaaay over costed too. It is not worth 705 points. It's not worth 600 points. It's probably worth 580, maybe. Even then it's only really adequate at killing flyers when it has to competr with the Banechassis.

 

Even jacking up the price of the Bane family won't help. Bad is bad. If they want them to sell after these points leaks they must have something else coming. Or they may, pure speculation on my part, be planning on just gutting them. They're likely made to order and would be easy to push them out from a sales drop to make room for new stuff. But if that new stuff is more overpriced stuff like the Astreaus; It's not going to sell much either.

[Frater Cornelius]

Pushing up all Astartes superheavies other than the new Primaris tank is a clear sign that they are trying to sell the model. Quite blatantly imo.

No. The Primaris tank has no publication as of yet and thus is not subject to point changes. Much like BA and DA it was too close to release to be adjusted. This point of view is infuriating, because it is based on negativity, not reason :/

[Biscuittzz]

 

Pushing up all Astartes superheavies other than the new Primaris tank is a clear sign that they are trying to sell the model. Quite blatantly imo.

No. The Primaris tank has no publication as of yet and thus is not subject to point changes. Much like BA and DA it was too close to release to be adjusted. This point of view is infuriating, because it is based on negativity, not reason :/

 

 

It does have rules and points published though? The pdf came out last week no? If the Fell-chasis were both cheaper in game terms and monetary terms alongside their rules why would anyone buy the new Primaris superheavy, going by general consensus on here the fell-chasis are a much beloved model aswell.

 

Negativity? I have no bias towards either of the models so don't believe so. While I don't have a tin foil hat on saying this is the only reason for this happening, what I meant is that I wouldn't be surprised if this sort of business minded thinking was going on.

[Frater Cornelius]

I meant printed books. CA only addresses those rules that were printed somewhere. A PDF can easily be changed if they so desired. If the tank will get its rules, it is will probably be that upcoming book with Culn as a Leviathan. From that point onwards, CA will be including this one.

[Nusquam]

The Primaris superheavy is also overcosted. It has to compete with baneblades.

 

If they want to affect sales via rules it needs to be good to begin with. And for that to happen it neess to drop by 100+ points.

 

Fellblades werent competing with it because they were also terrible.

[UnkyHamHam]

Thunderhawks being priced out of playability is really sad. I have one but haven't had the time to build it yet. I can't seem to make a good list with it. But now that's pretty much impossible.

[Claws and Effect]

Thunderhawks being priced out of playability is really sad. I have one but haven't had the time to build it yet. I can't seem to make a good list with it. But now that's pretty much impossible.

 

Yep. 

 

Used to be you could put together a list including a Thunderhawk and all the dudes it could conceivably carry. So the T-Hawk and 30 Infantry with a few small vehicles. 

 

At 1500 points it will be strictly Apocalypse from now on. 

[Galron]

I like the new point costs. They effectively give me a bunch of extra dudes for squads. I wasn't using the net list hyper efficient units before so it greatly benefits me and others who did the same. I think Gman should have been bumped higher because I see him as too much of a crutch for many players At the same time Morty and they other primarch should have been bumped up too as they seem to be crutches the chaos forces rely on to win games for them. I have fought exactly one chaos list that didn't include one of the two. My only increase for my marines is a Caestus, which I think inexplicitly went up 20 points or so. Did GW see me playing it or something? I think I am the only one that was using it.

[ninn]

What is "Chapter Approved" exactly? vWhy should I feel the need to use it? I don't get it. A book with more rules, campaigns and new unit point costs?

 

where will be the final unit point costs for casual play? In the codex? In the CA-Book? In the FAQs?

 

iirc, i played 7th just with the codex, nobody talked about CA ever ...

 

please enlighten me.

 

(edit) Ah, it is about Apoc, right?

Edited November 29, 2017 by ninn

[Servant of Dante]

No it’s a new thing GW is doing, they’ll have extra rules and missions you can use if you want, as well as updating point costs for normal matched play. It sounds like Chapter Approved will be yearly, but there will be a points balance update in some form every six months.

[Bremon]

It’s not really a new thing...it’s the revival of an old thing. Chapter approved was around back in 3rd/4th, can’t speak to in between then and now because I quit the game for well over a decade.

 

Chapter approved is why terminators got a 5++ invul back in the day; before then I used to table deathwings in 2 turns with my eldar...after chapter approved it took 3 turns lol.

 

Anyway, Ninn; final points costs are a combination of codex and chapter approved. More paper to spend money on unfortunately.

[Servant of Dante]

Well, new in that the old Chapter Approved books didn’t update point costs and included a lot more fun stuff compiled from WD (feral Orks anyone?) :P Edited November 30, 2017 by Servant of Dante

[Macabre Slanneshi Prince]

What is "Chapter Approved" exactly? vWhy should I feel the need to use it? I don't get it. A book with more rules, campaigns and new unit point costs?

 

where will be the final unit point costs for casual play? In the codex? In the CA-Book? In the FAQs?

 

iirc, i played 7th just with the codex, nobody talked about CA ever ...

 

please enlighten me.

 

(edit) Ah, it is about Apoc, right?

The points costs for casual play are power levels, and those haven't changed.

[Captain Idaho]

My thoughts, having seen the reviews and pages etc, is that the points changes for Marines are needed. Primaris just aren't killy or survivable enough to warrant high points values.

 

As an example, Aggressors might have a whole bunch of shots, but they're still only S4 shots at close range. They're still slow and they still die to multi wound weapons easily. They needed to be dropped in points.

 

As for Guilliman... Yes a small increase is fair. He's great even for that small increase. The nastier choices are expensive anyway now so it balances out.

 

***

 

What is REALLY wrong with Codex Space Marines is the list of Stratagems. Most of them are too narrow and a player will find most of them unusable for his army at any one game.

 

What needs to be done is a overhaul of the list in Codex Space Marines. The shadow of 7th edition still looms over Codex Space Marines. We have a number of Stratagems that are hang overs from the Formations rules that ruined a whole edition for many.

 

The Stratagems need to be broader. More units need to be covered in them or they need to be made cheaper. The latter is especially relevant since we have more expensive models therefore can't garner as many Command Points.

 

Things like this:

 

- Auspex Scan: 1 Command Point for infantry to use it or 2 Command Points for vehicles. The -1 to hit is enough of a balance for goodness sake!

 

- Killshot: it should affect a single Predator for 2 Command Points. Let's be honest here, 3 Predators is 2 more than most of armies can fit in if we want OTHER stuff.

 

- Orbital Bombardment: it's pointless in most cases. Such a small area of effect if you roll average and hits 50% of the time for just D3 mortal wounds yet costs 3 Command Points? No thanks. Make it deadly or make it hit on a 3+ at a set area of effect like 6" and cost it only 2 Command Points.

 

- Linebreaker Bombardment: Come on, who is taking 3 Vindicators? I might take one if I could put 2D3 Mortal Wounds on a target for 1 or 2 Command Points. Preferably 1 since every other Codex gets good rules for their tanks and we get the Vindicator...

 

I could go on but I made my point. Chapter Approved could have fixed many issues with Codex Space Marines but for some reason GW think it's all rosey. Probably because people are buying Primaris Marines still despite a lacklustre Codex.

Edited November 30, 2017 by Captain Idaho

[Mileposter]

I could go on but I made my point. Chapter Approved could have fixed many issues with Codex Space Marines but for some reason GW think it's all rosey. Probably because people are buying Primaris Marines still despite a lacklustre Codex.

Gonna harp a bit, but I still really think we're gonna see a Marines update after BA and DA have been around for just a little bit. Probably mid-year update. I don't think - with the overwhelming amount of feedback they've gotten - that GW thinks "it's all rosey".

[CCE1981]

My thoughts, having seen the reviews and pages etc, is that the points changes for Marines are needed. Primaris just aren't killy or survivable enough to warrant high points values.

 

As an example, Aggressors might have a whole bunch of shots, but they're still only S4 shots at close range. They're still slow and they still die to multi wound weapons easily. They needed to be dropped in points.

 

As for Guilliman... Yes a small increase is fair. He's great even for that small increase. The nastier choices are expensive anyway now so it balances out.

 

***

 

What is REALLY wrong with Codex Space Marines is the list of Stratagems. Most of them are too narrow and a player will find most of them unusable for his army at any one game.

 

What needs to be done is a overhaul of the list in Codex Space Marines. The shadow of 7th edition still looms over Codex Space Marines. We have a number of Stratagems that are hang overs from the Formations rules that ruined a whole edition for many.

 

The Stratagems need to be broader. More units need to be covered in them or they need to be made cheaper. The latter is especially relevant since we have more expensive models therefore can't garner as many Command Points.

 

Things like this:

 

- Auspex Scan: 1 Command Point for infantry to use it or 2 Command Points for vehicles. The -1 to hit is enough of a balance for goodness sake!

 

- Killshot: it should affect a single Predator for 2 Command Points. Let's be honest here, 3 Predators is 2 more than most of armies can fit in if we want OTHER stuff.

 

- Orbital Bombardment: it's pointless in most cases. Such a small area of effect if you roll average and hits 50% of the time for just D3 mortal wounds yet costs 3 Command Points? No thanks. Make it deadly or make it hit on a 3+ at a set area of effect like 6" and cost it only 2 Command Points.

 

- Linebreaker Bombardment: Come on, who is taking 3 Vindicators? I might take one if I could put 2D3 Mortal Wounds on a target for 1 or 2 Command Points. Preferably 1 since every other Codex gets good rules for their tanks and we get the Vindicator...

 

I could go on but I made my point. Chapter Approved could have fixed many issues with Codex Space Marines but for some reason GW think it's all rosey. Probably because people are buying Primaris Marines still despite a lacklustre Codex.

I know you didn’t want to harp more, but the one that gets me the most is the 3 CP to make a Captain a Chapter Master is ludicrously expensive. Taking Shrike is a 3 CP swing, and Marneus is a 5 point SWING!!! That is pretty huge for an army that can’t get a Brigade Detachment at 700 pts (Guard, Bugs). When you look at it, Shrike is only paying 45 pts for Chapter Master, a Warlord trait (effectively), and extra damage on his Lightning Claws compared to a Captain with twin Lightning Claws.

[Captain Idaho]

 

I could go on but I made my point. Chapter Approved could have fixed many issues with Codex Space Marines but for some reason GW think it's all rosey. Probably because people are buying Primaris Marines still despite a lacklustre Codex.

Gonna harp a bit, but I still really think we're gonna see a Marines update after BA and DA have been around for just a little bit. Probably mid-year update. I don't think - with the overwhelming amount of feedback they've gotten - that GW thinks "it's all rosey".

Maybe so.

 

If I'm buying a new Codex so soon then it best be written in gold.

 

I'm talking better Stratagems (where's the teleport one for slow moving Terminators to redeploy quickly?) and new units and weapons (why aren't there Tactical Marines with Boarding Shields or Assault Marines with Destroyer load outs? Where are my Cataphractii plasma blasters).

 

I'd also like Primaris separated into their own Codex. The balance doesn't mesh right in my view and it seems like most players either go all Primaris or none at all...

[CCE1981]

 

 

I could go on but I made my point. Chapter Approved could have fixed many issues with Codex Space Marines but for some reason GW think it's all rosey. Probably because people are buying Primaris Marines still despite a lacklustre Codex.

Gonna harp a bit, but I still really think we're gonna see a Marines update after BA and DA have been around for just a little bit. Probably mid-year update. I don't think - with the overwhelming amount of feedback they've gotten - that GW thinks "it's all rosey".

Maybe so.

 

If I'm buying a new Codex so soon then it best be written in gold.

 

I'm talking better Stratagems (where's the teleport one for slow moving Terminators to redeploy quickly?) and new units and weapons (why aren't there Tactical Marines with Boarding Shields or Assault Marines with Destroyer load outs? Where are my Cataphractii plasma blasters).

 

I'd also like Primaris separated into their own Codex. The balance doesn't mesh right in my view and it seems like most players either go all Primaris or none at all...

Terminators redeploy is built in with teleport homers. Company Veterans can be loaded out with Storm Shields and special weapons. Not exactly what you want but there.

[Captain Idaho]

The use of teleport homers only caters for Indomintus armour, is limited to your deployment and therefore defensive and is removed when opponents get close.

 

Also I'm not sure if you're aware but boarding shields and storm shields are not the same.

 

EDIT

 

Ah fudge just read that back and it comes across snarky rather than humorous cheek as intended. Sorry.

Edited November 30, 2017 by Captain Idaho

[Schlitzaf]

1) First before anything let’s not forget to place our army in the context of the “Imperium” Keyword. Part of the issue is that make our Codex too good, Imperium force starts grabbing a small detachment on a Vangaurd level. Let’s never forget that context. Along with the context our stratagems are universal for any other imperial marine army. Or worse it turns the game into an ‘invisibility’ War of 7th.

1B) While there are distinctive issues with Gaurd, at the very least, three whole keywords have reasonable access to them (Nids, Chaos and Imoerium). And other big soup, Eldar have ways to do similar.

2) So we should look at that context and try to answer two questions.

2b) What should a SM Battalion + Weird Detachment Level to do? A Battalion being the equivalent to standard Force Org, that should be our context. Captain + Liutanent and a support character is not an unreasonable proposition for SM Lists. Coming to 200-250ish Points in HQ. What should that list bring, and be our innate weaknesses and strengths.

2c) If we assume Speciality Detachment Level (Vangaurd/Outrider/etc) what should SM Speciality detachments by nature add to a soup list? Or we assume a double battlelion, with SM vanilla being one of the Battlelion what are we adding to the Soup Keyword?

 

B&C need not be the same, but should have a degree of overlap. Once we decided what B is and how that relates to C. We can start fixing B. In a way that doesn’t make C too good.

[CCE1981]

The use of teleport homers only caters for Indomintus armour, is limited to your deployment and therefore defensive and is removed when opponents get close.

 

Also I'm not sure if you're aware but boarding shields and storm shields are not the same.

 

EDIT

 

Ah fudge just read that back and it comes across snarky rather than humorous cheek as intended. Sorry.

I thought it came across more as “informative to your point.”

 

I haven’t seen rules for boarding shields. Thought the models lokked good and I thought about making a Company Vet unit with Storm Shields and plasmaguns, but need to make a list around them.

[The Unseen]

1) First before anything let’s not forget to place our army in the context of the “Imperium” Keyword. Part of the issue is that make our Codex too good, Imperium force starts grabbing a small detachment on a Vangaurd level. Let’s never forget that context. Along with the context our stratagems are universal for any other imperial marine army. Or worse it turns the game into an ‘invisibility’ War of 7th.

1B) While there are distinctive issues with Gaurd, at the very least, three whole keywords have reasonable access to them (Nids, Chaos and Imoerium). And other big soup, Eldar have ways to do similar.

2) So we should look at that context and try to answer two questions.

2b) What should a SM Battalion + Weird Detachment Level to do? A Battalion being the equivalent to standard Force Org, that should be our context. Captain + Liutanent and a support character is not an unreasonable proposition for SM Lists. Coming to 200-250ish Points in HQ. What should that list bring, and be our innate weaknesses and strengths.

2c) If we assume Speciality Detachment Level (Vangaurd/Outrider/etc) what should SM Speciality detachments by nature add to a soup list? Or we assume a double battlelion, with SM vanilla being one of the Battlelion what are we adding to the Soup Keyword?

 

B&C need not be the same, but should have a degree of overlap. Once we decided what B is and how that relates to C. We can start fixing B. In a way that doesn’t make C too good.

The way to fix that isn't by making mono armies with the Imperial keyword weak and bland to "prevent ally abuse", but to fix the damn ally system.

It needs to be moved to Open and Narrative only, or be much much more restricted.

 

Ally shenanigans are impossible to balance in any reasonable sense, and need to just go away from Matched play, or else Imperial Soup, and to lesser extent Eldar soup, are going to dominate, while faction purist armies from those factions are going to be mediocre, to try and tone down said soup lists, and will ensure that if you want to compete at any kind of competetive level with any Imperial army, you'll have to have a cobbled together mess. AKA nerfing individual books for their soup interactions will logically lead to even more soup lists being prevalent.

 

If a codex can't stand on its own two feet alone, with no help from other codexes, it shouldn't be printed.

If that makes soups too strong, nerf the way you make the soups, not the armies.

[Frater Cornelius]

What about Chaos though. Outside of Primarch tag teams, it is one of the fluffier options and fun to play against.