Ultramarines vs Extreme armies

[Frater Cornelius]

If a list is mainly Primaris and does not include Guilliman, then cheese is the last thing I'd call it. For instance, my casual list at high points has 80% similarity with my competitive list, the major difference is whether I take Guilliman.

[Freman Bloodglaive]

The problem Marines will always have is that the stereotypical Marine is a model with decent stats, power armour, and a bolter. To get decent stats and power armour you have to pay a certain amount in points, but all it gets you is a bolter. A bolter isn't a terrible anti-infantry weapon, but because you have to pay for the guy carrying it, you usually get fewer anti-infantry weapons than your opponent has infantry.

 

If you're not playing a variant detachment you have to buy four models with bolters before you get a model with a decent gun. That means that under most conditions 80% of your units are just dead weight, ablative wounds for the special or heavy weapon. Of course, with the cost of marines, that's a lot of points in ablative wounds.

 

There was a reason that bike armies became the norm for marines. They were more expensive than tactical marines, but you could run a three man squad with two special weapons and a combi, where every model could dish out damage, they didn't need a transport for mobility, and if they died? Well, the enemy may have put an entire squad's worth of firepower, maybe two squads, into removing three models.

 

Primaris are even worse than standard marines because you're paying even more for bolters, and they don't even have a decent weapon in the unit. I suppose a detachment composed solely of Hellblasters might be worth it, but Inceptors, Intercessors, Reivers, and Aggressors are not.

 

Marines have some shooting ability and some melee ability (not much of either) which they pay for. In comparison Eldar can take Dark Reapers if they want shooting, or Striking Scorpions if they want melee. Reapers are mediocre at melee, but excellent at shooting, while Scorpions are mediocre in shooting, but are excellent in melee. 

 

Marines are as they have always been. Generalists in a game which rewards specialization. The Tactical Squad is the same formation they've had since 2nd Edition and as other armies have innovated, changing equipment and reorganizing squads, Marines have remained the same. As was said of generals before WW2, they insist on fighting wars with equipment that might have been useful in the previous war.

 

At least they're better off than Chaos.

[Frater Cornelius]

It ain't that bad. The Bolter is fairly decent and with various re-rolls flying around they become more efficient than a many standard weapons other factions have. You compare the vanilla Marine with a Dark Reaper. This isn't a fair comparison. Better to compare a Marine to a Guardian, at which point the Marine is superior. Sure, a Marine does not have Bladestorm on the weapon, but one Marine will each 3 times as much anti-infantry firepower, even more if it is a Primaris. Dire Avengers pull ahead because of their 18" range and Battle Focus, but Auto Bolt Intercessors are in a similar ballpark. The reason you do not see more Primaris is the plethora of multi-damage weaponry, diminishing the advantage in staying power.

 

Dark Reapers are more like Sternguard and Hellblasters. There is no denial that Reapers are good, but so are Sternguard and Hellblasters, which are only let down by inferior army rules and supporting units as well as transports.

 

Verdict is that I wouldn't downplay the humble Marine ;)

[Ishagu]

They are currently over-costed. This is being addressed in Chapter Approved. That being said armies can still be mis-matched.

 

An infantry marine list only packing Bolters will not defeat two Imperial Knights for example.

[Frater Cornelius]

Neither will an Eldar army with only Shuriken Catapults. In fact, Guilliman and only Bolters stand a better chance than most :P

[Rogue]

“If you're not playing a variant detachment you have to buy four models with bolters before you get a model with a decent gun. That means that under most conditions 80% of your units are just dead weight, ablative wounds for the special or heavy weapon. Of course, with the cost of marines, that's a lot of points in ablative wounds.“

 

It’s overlapping a conversation elsewhere, but it feels like you’re coming with a negative mind-set here. You see four bolters as a tax for one plasma gun (or whatever). For me, the plasma gun is a bonus support weapon for the squad of bolters.

 

So, rather than four marines standing around while plasma guy shoots at something, you could have plasma guy adding his firepower to whatever bolter guys are killing. Or split fire, I guess.

 

At the least, stick a combi-weapon on the sergeant, and you have two specials with three bodies, which is about the same ratio as a full-strength devastator squad...

[Freman Bloodglaive]

Quantity can have a quality all its own, as Guard demonstrate, but bolters are not only weak, almost as weak as lasguns with the revised damage table, but they no longer cut through the armour of basic grunts like Guardsmen and Orks, and each one costs you a lot in points. Storm bolters give you quantity, but they're on units like bikes and terminators. The cheapest platform being (I think) Command Squads, but there you have the option of taking combi-weapons, and why wouldn't you?

 

I'm fully aware that I hamstring myself by playing exclusively First Company, but I do it for the rule of cool and without much expectation of victory. Sternguard are decent, and are what Tactical squads should be, just as Vanguard are what assault squads should be.