Heavy Weapons on Mobile Infantry

[Hoodsgate]

Do you find that the lascannon paired with the heavy bolters in HW squads fair a bit better? Slowly putting a Guard army together and haven't played much with it yet...

[librisrouge]

This sounds only tangentially related, but I've come to think that, in ITC tournament play, heavy weapons in infantry squads are essential. IG fields a LOT of 10 man squads and this leaves us vulnerable to The Reaper secondary goals from our enemies (secondary point for killing a 10 man squad.) But, and this feels gamey but I don't care, an infantry squad with a heavy weapon is only a nine man squad. BAM! We are now much more resistant to secondary points.

[Vel'Cona]

That's interesting.  Now that Instant Death isn't a thing and wound allocation is at-will, the double-wound HWT base isn't as much of a detriment, either.  I feel that blending expensive HWT into Infantry Squads is a good idea because that's a considerably greater amount of protection than they'd have as a pure HWS, and also makes them less of an individual threat, reducing ease of target priority for the opponent.

[micahwc]

I lost three heavy weapon teams last night before any of them could fire a shot, losing 9 missile launchers in the process. I will be running my heavy weapons in Infantry squads for the foreseeable future.

[TheShredder]

I lost three heavy weapon teams last night before any of them could fire a shot, losing 9 missile launchers in the process. I will be running my heavy weapons in Infantry squads for the foreseeable future.

 

I'm a fan of running them with 1 expensive weapon and 2 inexpensive ones.

 

e.g. Lascannon & 2 Mortars or Lascannon and 2 Heavy Bolters.

 

You can't concentrate orders as well, but it makes losing individual squads far less painful.

[Halfpint100]

Do you find that the lascannon paired with the heavy bolters in HW squads fair a bit better? Slowly putting a Guard army together and haven't played much with it yet...

 

Yup, heavy bolters are good and cheap and your opponent has to cause 4 wounds before the lascannon can even be hurt. like 54 points for 2 heavy bolters and a lascannon, its a steal!

[Silas7]

Am I correct in saying that Death korps can't embed heavies into it's units? If so does anybody think that is going to be adjusted down the road or are they stuck with trying to hide mixed Hws to cut back on becoming priority targets?

[Cap'm Heckus]

Lascannon heavy weapons squad are the first thing in my army to die usually. The ones tucked in squads live a lot longer. I run my squads half with heavy weapons and half without. They just have different jobs.

[Mitchverr]

Am I correct in saying that Death korps can't embed heavies into it's units? If so does anybody think that is going to be adjusted down the road or are they stuck with trying to hide mixed Hws to cut back on becoming priority targets?

 

You are correct they cant, and I dont think it will be "adjusted", its part and parcel of them having some special rules, they pay for it in points and weapon option removal. It also kind of hinders the thing that the death korps seems to be more focused with, advancing down the field. The squads that "might" get it would be engineers if anyone, but I think that unlikely also, sadly the only heavy weapons are for the heavy infantry and those are not really worth bringing with those squads due to points cost problems.

 

Personally I would go for artillery/aircraft over HWTs for the most part for the kriegers, the only HWT i consider are twin heavy stubbers, because everyone underestimates the heavy stubber so it has a survive chance. If I could take mole squads, i might consider them though.

Edited November 11, 2017 by Mitchverr

[Silas7]

 

Am I correct in saying that Death korps can't embed heavies into it's units? If so does anybody think that is going to be adjusted down the road or are they stuck with trying to hide mixed Hws to cut back on becoming priority targets?

 

 

You are correct they cant, and I dont think it will be "adjusted", its part and parcel of them having some special rules, they pay for it in points and weapon option removal. It also kind of hinders the thing that the death korps seems to be more focused with, advancing down the field. The squads that "might" get it would be engineers if anyone, but I think that unlikely also, sadly the only heavy weapons are for the heavy infantry and those are not really worth bringing with those squads due to points cost problems.

 

Personally I would go for artillery/aircraft over HWTs for the most part for the kriegers, the only HWT i consider are twin heavy stubbers, because everyone underestimates the heavy stubber so it has a survive chance. If I could take mole squads, i might consider them though.

As I understand it the index focuses on the old style krieg assault brigade. If your using you infantry squads in a more static capacity, the cult of sacrifice rule seems to really compliment embedded hwt's in infantry sections for increased survivability. The reason I say adjusted is because every thing I've read on the forums suggest that most people think the index was rushed by forge world and wanted to get some more in-depth feedback on that viewpoint. I really like the idea of some artillery batteries being buffered by hwt's while your lrbts and infantry push objectives forcing your opponent to juggle target priority.

 

Thanks for the post mitch.

[Withershadow]

 

Do you find that the lascannon paired with the heavy bolters in HW squads fair a bit better? Slowly putting a Guard army together and haven't played much with it yet...

 

Yup, heavy bolters are good and cheap and your opponent has to cause 4 wounds before the lascannon can even be hurt. like 54 points for 2 heavy bolters and a lascannon, its a steal!

I don't have any heavy bolters, but I like how this works.  I've tried using autocannons instead for a more expensive 68 point module.  Autocannons aren't great this edition, I feel like they need to be AP -2 to justify their cost. 

[TheShredder]

I don't have any heavy bolters, but I like how this works.  I've tried using autocannons instead for a more expensive 68 point module.  Autocannons aren't great this edition, I feel like they need to be AP -2 to justify their cost. 

 

Yeah, they definitely need something. I tried using trios of them in a few games, but quickly changed them out for Heavy Bolters. 

[Silas7]

That's a shame as I really like the looks of auto cannons.

[Withershadow]

My three storm chimeras are also pretty bummed about it.  They should be no more than 10 points, because they honestly don't feel that much better than a single heavy bolter (trade one shot for slightly better wounding profile), much less two of them.

[Altasmurf]

Autocannons just have a more niche profile. The provide excellent fire power vs 2 wound models, big guys with an invulnerable, 4+ save vehicles. They're just not the go to weapon they were last edition.

[Altasmurf]

Whoops double post Edited November 12, 2017 by Altasmurf

[Withershadow]

I guess, they've been really flaky for me even against such targets.  It takes a full autocannon heavy weapon team to have a 65% chance to kill a single terminator. Their niche is just extremely narrow, for most soft targets the heavy bolters do better point for point, for harder stuff the lascannons do.

 

I do need to try them as Cadia with spammed commands to re-roll hits.  I have 6 teams, so may as well put them to some use.  Regarding the topic, I need to try this and just spam infantry squads for the hilarity of it.  I did a rough count, and if I mix the heavy weapons into my infantry, I can field 8 infantry squads while keeping enough crew for all the heavy guns and spare dudes for special weapon squads.  If everyone gets conscripted into the front lines, I may be able to squeeze 12-13 infantry squads onto the table. And that's still only 800 points or so.  Brilliant.

[WarriorFish]

I agree, autocannons are lacklustre currently which is disappointing. Their stats aren't so bad it's the cost that seems steep, at least heavy bolters have been given a shot in the arm (ridiculously overdue) so they'd be my first choice and they've done quite well blasting down Rhinos and the like - something I'd usually aim for with autocannons.

[Halfpint100]

I think maybe 12 points would be good for autocannons. SInce they do have D2. But 15 is still too high

[TheShredder]

My three storm chimeras are also pretty bummed about it.  They should be no more than 10 points, because they honestly don't feel that much better than a single heavy bolter (trade one shot for slightly better wounding profile), much less two of them.

 

Yeah, I think 10pts would be much more reasonable.

 

 

 

I think maybe 12 points would be good for autocannons. SInce they do have D2. But 15 is still too high

 

I'm not sure. I struggle to see them as being worth 50% more than Heavy Bolters.

[Halfpint100]

 

My three storm chimeras are also pretty bummed about it.  They should be no more than 10 points, because they honestly don't feel that much better than a single heavy bolter (trade one shot for slightly better wounding profile), much less two of them.

 

Yeah, I think 10pts would be much more reasonable.

 

 

 

I think maybe 12 points would be good for autocannons. SInce they do have D2. But 15 is still too high

 

I'm not sure. I struggle to see them as being worth 50% more than Heavy Bolters.

 

 

Its more with cadians, an extra 2 points for one less shot (but you will probably have re-rolls so oh well) +2 str and +1D seems too cheap IMO. 

[TheShredder]

Its more with cadians, an extra 2 points for one less shot (but you will probably have re-rolls so oh well) +2 str and +1D seems too cheap IMO. 

 

I think the issue is that, whilst it seems like a big bonus, you actually end up with a pretty niche profile. S7 is frequently no better than S5, and given that most 2-wound units have good armour saves, you're probably better off using Plasmaguns against them. Against vehicles - even light vehicles - you'd probably be better off forking out for a Lascannon (only 1 shot, but significantly better strength, much better AP and has much more damage potential). 

[Silas7]

I'd like to see auto cannons get a +1 to ap on a wound or to hit roll of 6 (pick one) and see if that gives them the bump in firepower to warrant more use. It takes some luck and can be swingy but it's not d6 swingy and really makes them more effective in the take all comers role that auto cannons sit in between heavy bolters and lascannons. Edited November 12, 2017 by Silas7

[Halfpint100]

Are people still getting good mileage out of mortars this deep into 8th edition? I’m still of the mindset that they are hot garbage but I haven’t used them this edition to be honest. I’m not sure I’d put them on a mobile squad either. I like the heavy bolter for that.

 

I have 6 of them in my 1k infantry list. They are good for hitting hiding units, they are cheap LOS ignoring anti-infantry. Don't expect much and you wont be disappointed. 11 points a base is cheap for what they do

[imperialguard]

What about missile launchers? I’ve always been tempted to take some simply for the “rule of cool.” Does anyone have good experience fielding them? I’ll be playing with the Cadian doctrine, which would give them some more accuracy on backfield squads.