Creed and Kell versus company commander (s)

[Spyboy]

What are everybody's thoughts on Creed and Kell versus regular Company Commanders.

 

Points per order, Creed is worse, or is he? 140 points for creed and kell nets you 4 orders with a 12" range while 120 points nets you 8 orders with half the range but coming from four sources from the CCs.

 

However combinding the Cadian warlord trait with the laurels of command sees Creed's orders go to 10 on average, the CCs also average 10.

 

Another bonus is Kell's reroll to morale which is not insignificant since the commisar nerf and Creed gives you 2 more CP. Personally I think Kell's reroll is good since it is the only character that has a morale bubble in the codex. (Not including either commissar)

 

On the flip side 20 points nets you an astropath that can cast morale immunity on one unit.

 

Thoughts anyone?

[Halfpint100]

We play the guard..... more bodies......

 

Quantity > quality. 

 

Granted Creed can issue 10 orders maybe. but it is still on T3 W4 4+ 5++. some snipers and there goes all your orders (Kell wound slow it down i know). The 4 CC also give you more HQs for detatchments. Also give you more board coverage. I run 4 CC in 1k points for 11 units that could have orders and having so many allows me to spread them around and have lots of characters in case one is killed (Guard powers of redundancy). 

[Spyboy]

Makes sense, then I can take the grand stratigist trait anyways. Also hadn't thought of slot filling....

 

Would kell or creed be worty it on the thier own?

[Feral_80]

Not worth it. Nice bonuses, but the Cadian warlord trait is poor.

 

It is much better to save a lot of points, get a good trait and a good relic, despite that juicy +2cp.

[TheShredder]

(1) What are everybody's thoughts on Creed and Kell versus regular Company Commanders.

 

Points per order, Creed is worse, or is he? 140 points for creed and kell nets you 4 orders with a 12" range while 120 points nets you 8 orders with half the range but coming from four sources from the CCs.

 

(2) However combinding the Cadian warlord trait with the laurels of command sees Creed's orders go to 10 on average, the CCs also average 10.

 

(3) Another bonus is Kell's reroll to morale which is not insignificant since the commisar nerf and (4) Creed gives you 2 more CP. Personally I think Kell's reroll is good since it is the only character that has a morale bubble in the codex. (Not including either commissar)

 

(5) On the flip side 20 points nets you an astropath that can cast morale immunity on one unit.

 

Thoughts anyone?

 

(I've added numbers so that I can address each point.)

 

1) Well, I don't like special characters to begin with and tend to only use them if they do something really important and unique (e.g. in SoB no other HQ is even comparable to St. Celestine). Hence, taking an HQ who only really offers an extra order and 2 CP doesn't exactly appeal to me to begin with. And Kell is beyond niche. 

 

At the very least, I'd much rather use regular Company Commanders and make up my own characters.

 

However, on a more tactical level, I much prefer having more HQs dotted around than putting all my eggs into a single basket. Also, more HQs help me fill out Brigades or Battalions.

 

2) How are you getting the Laurels of Command on Creed? Special characters can't take Relics.

 

3) Honestly, I find Kell's reroll mediocre at best. If nothing else, it feels like he's in the wrong army - I'm sure Catachan could make far better use out of a guy with a banner and a Power Fist.

 

4) Creed is going to cost you far more than 2CP by preventing you from taking Grand Strategist.

 

5) 15pts actually (just take the laspistol instead of the staff). Although, given that it only works on one squad per turn, I don't think I'd want to rely on Astropaths for morale mitigation. 

[Feral_80]

Exactly. That is why I say a generic commander also is better.

[TheShredder]

Any opinions on our other Special Characters? Yarrick, Straken, Harker, Pask etc.

[Halfpint100]

Harker is beast for catachan artillery armies!

[DrLoveMonkey]

Generic CCs are better, but I don’t think this is one of those choices where sacrificing for a cool character will kill your army. If you want the coolness of being able to order a field of HWTs 12”, using a character who wields a hotshot las pistol in each hand, you’re not going to lose the game at the listbuilding stage.

 

Like, for instance, if you wanted to throw Harker into your cadian brigade for the sake of a cool character and sacrificing your regiment bonus... just don’t do that.

[Chris521]

Any opinions on our other Special Characters? Yarrick, Straken, Harker, Pask etc.

 

Well, if your running tanks as Cadians, 10 points for an additional bs upgrade on your tank commander is is an obvious choice.

 

Creed and Kell are pretty situational.  Creed's biggest drawback is no relics and the warlord trait being locked in.

 

I think it would be really cool if they added a generic lord general model to our HQ list.  The stat line of Creed, with the load out options of a commander.  3 order and maybe a leadership aura instead of the 2 cp.  For around 55-60 points, I'd take it.

Edited November 10, 2017 by Chris521

[DrLoveMonkey]

Any opinions on our other Special Characters? Yarrick, Straken, Harker, Pask etc.

I think the general consensus is that they’re all good but not usually at what they’re supposed to be good for. Harker and Yarrick are backfield artillery commanders, Pask is a punisher commander, and Straken is just kind of overcosted for anything but trying to stack a ton of buffs on a melee squad for not much benefit.

[Feral_80]

In my opinion they are all usable, none is great.

 

Pask is as juicy as vulnerable. He won't survive turn 1 against any serious opponent, and he will die just like any other LR - that is, easily: the toughness or LRs is purely a myth, they just go boom easily. I don't even take Tank commanders usually, and even less Pask: it's like helping your opponent to choose targets - and no, the other big myth of 'if they target it that's fine, they won't target something else' does not work in this case.

 

Straken is only usable for a Valkyrie drop, he is cool and everything, but at AP -1 he'll never do much despite his otherwise impressive stats. Against ork boyz, small tyranid critters, etc., he is funny though. Against monsters, he has a vague chance of doing a few wounds if he charges, otherwise he is too squishy to resist. His WL trait is terrible. At his cost, an Eversor is probably better anyway. Great model though.

 

Harker is cool but badly designed: he is great for plasma spam (not a Catachan thing at all) and for buffing vehicles (same), which basically means he turns a Catachan line into a Cadian. He is worth it only if you invest heavily on these units. I'd have preferred his aura to work only on infantry, and perhaps with some more original buffs. Another great model though.

 

Yarrick, some people use it to give reroll 1s to cool units that lack the order, such as DKK engineers. Or, to stack order-effects on units without being Cadian and/or taking the Laurels of command. It's too expensive to use him for any of that, and I'd rather grab 2-3 other units for his cost. Except against orks, where he is almost a mini-Cawl for half the price.

 

 

It is a big, big limit of all codexes that only some sub-factions have special characters. GW should have given at least a generic, customizable high-profile character to all sub-factions (they only did it with Marines), or at least one special each like in the past.

Edited November 10, 2017 by Feral_80

[Spyboy]

@The Shredder and USN Centurion

You are right, I forgot about named characters and relics, that relic was pretty important to get all those orders on Creed. Company Commanders are just better. Speaking or relics, is there a better one then laurels of command.

 

Losing the grand stratigist warlord trait hurts as well when taking Creed.

 

As for other special characters. Pask and Harker are quite good, not sure about Yarrik since the commisar nerf. Straken is niche I think.

[TheShredder]

Pask is as juicy as vulnerable. He won't survive turn 1 against any serious opponent, and he will die just like any other LR - that is, easily: the toughness or LRs is purely a myth, they just go boom easily. I don't even take Tank commanders usually, and even less Pask: it's like helping your opponent to choose targets - and no, the other big myth of 'if they target it that's fine, they won't target something else' does not work in this case.

 

Yeah, I've never been a fan of Tank Commanders either. 45pts is a lot for no improvement in survivability. I could maybe see one being useful with an Executioner, but that just makes the value of that tank even more questionable.

 

Honestly, I'm wary of even buying sponsons for my Leman Russ tanks. Usually, I'd much rather put those points towards buying more Leman Russ.

 

It is a big, big limit of all codexes that only some sub-factions have special characters. GW should have given at least a generic, customizable high-profile character to all sub-factions (they only did it with Marines), or at least one special each like in the past.

 

I'd much rather have a customizable, high-profile character than a special character. It would certainly be nice to have something higher than a Company Commander.

 

But yeah, it's stupid that we've got, what, 8 different factions? And of those one has 3 special characters, one has 2 special characters, and the rest have none at all.

 

EDIT:

 

@The Shredder and USN Centurion

You are right, I forgot about named characters and relics, that relic was pretty important to get all those orders on Creed. Company Commanders are just better. Speaking or relics, is there a better one then laurels of command.

 

I think the consensus is that the Aquila is the best relic.

 

Personally though, I'm a fan of using relics that fit the flavour of my characters, rather than the ones considered the most powerful. Hence why one of my Primaris Psykers has the Death Mask of Ollanius. 

Edited November 10, 2017 by TheShredder

[Halfpint100]

 

Pask is as juicy as vulnerable. He won't survive turn 1 against any serious opponent, and he will die just like any other LR - that is, easily: the toughness or LRs is purely a myth, they just go boom easily. I don't even take Tank commanders usually, and even less Pask: it's like helping your opponent to choose targets - and no, the other big myth of 'if they target it that's fine, they won't target something else' does not work in this case.

 

Yeah, I've never been a fan of Tank Commanders either. 45pts is a lot for no improvement in survivability. I could maybe see one being useful with an Executioner, but that just makes the value of that tank even more questionable.

 

Honestly, I'm wary of even buying sponsons for my Leman Russ tanks. Usually, I'd much rather put those points towards buying more Leman Russ.

 

It is a big, big limit of all codexes that only some sub-factions have special characters. GW should have given at least a generic, customizable high-profile character to all sub-factions (they only did it with Marines), or at least one special each like in the past.

 

I'd much rather have a customizable, high-profile character than a special character. It would certainly be nice to have something higher than a Company Commander.

 

But yeah, it's stupid that we've got, what, 8 different factions? And of those one has 3 special characters, one has 2 special characters, and the rest have none at all.

 

EDIT:

 

@The Shredder and USN Centurion

You are right, I forgot about named characters and relics, that relic was pretty important to get all those orders on Creed. Company Commanders are just better. Speaking or relics, is there a better one then laurels of command.

 

I think the consensus is that the Aquila is the best relic.

 

Personally though, I'm a fan of using relics that fit the flavour of my characters, rather than the ones considered the most powerful. Hence why one of my Primaris Psykers has the Death Mask of Ollanius. 

 

Aquila is only good vs an opponent with a decent amount of CP, if they only have 4-5. not really worth it IMO. laurels, deathmask or dagger are better in that case

[TheShredder]

 

Aquila is only good vs an opponent with a decent amount of CP, if they only have 4-5. not really worth it IMO. laurels, deathmask or dagger are better in that case

 

Granted, but I'm assuming most people don't know in advance who they'll be facing. And as more codices come out (with characters giving extra command points, regenerating command points, generating command points via stratagems/warlord traits etc.) I think it'll only get better.

 

That said, I can definitely see it varying by situation and such. I can certainly see some armies getting a lot of mileage out of the Laurels or Dagger.

 

Out of interest though, do you really consider the Death Mask that good? It surprises me that you'd seemingly put it in the top 3-4. 

[Feral_80]

I like Aquila, but on average it won't give you much so I much prefer Laurels. Also because we tend to start with quite a good reserve of CPs anyway (and we have a great warlord trait for those also).

I always take a second heilroom, which is often the relic of lost Cadia. The dagger is nice, but I tend to have DKK riders flanking and Scions deepstriking already so it's not that essential. Sooner or later I'll give it a try to the Emperor's benediction and the Sword of conquest just for fun. The deathmask seems a bit lackluster to me, in fact. I see no real reason to give it to a squishy character that will just remain squishy no matter what.

Edited November 10, 2017 by Feral_80

[Brother Captain Ed]

I don't know why our chain of command stops at the Company level. I understand that "company commander" is intentionally nebulous but it's still pretty implied to a captain equivalent. Then we have a colonel character and jump straight a Lord Castellan character.

 

I like the cheap disposable company commanders, but it would be nice to have a one-per-army option for something like a Lord General or Governor-Militant that throws the armory wide open and offers something like an extra order.

 

It will never compete with a space marine captain for killyness (or even Straken) but it would at least be a generic human that's loaded for bear with a flag rank.

[TheShredder]

(1) I like Aquila, but on average it won't give you much so I much prefer Laurels. Also because we tend to start with quite a good reserve of CPs anyway (and we have a great warlord trait for those also).

(2) I always take a second heilroom, which is often the relic of lost Cadia. The dagger is nice, but I tend to have DKK riders flanking and Scions deepstriking already so it's not that essential. Sooner or later I'll give it a try to the Emperor's benediction and the Sword of conquest just for fun. (3) The deathmask seems a bit lackluster to me, in fact. I see no real reason to give it to a squishy character that will just remain squishy no matter what.

 

1) Yeah, I'm basically in the same boat. Also, most of my opponents don't tend to use armies/list with lots of CPs, so I rarely bother with the Aquila. I do like the Laurels.

 

2) I'm hesitant to take the Relic of lost Cadia because it really seems like it's a badly-worded item that's supposed to be once-per-game. Until it gets FAQd one way or the other, I'm not really comfortable taking it. 

 

3) Well, I like giving it to my Primaris Psyker for a few reasons:

- It gives him a meaningful save so that he doesn't die to a stiff breeze if my opponent has snipers or if I want to have a bit of fun and send him into combat. It doesn't make him a tank or anything but I like him having some protection.

- The regeneration ability allows him to recover damage from Perils of the Warp. Indeed, he's the only HQ I have that can suffer self-inflicted damage. The fact that he can regenerate wounds afterwards means he at least won't be casting on a knife's edge afterwards.

- The effects fit the general theme I have in mind for that psyker (and he certainly has an unusual face, if not an actual mask).

 

I appreciate that it's not a great item, but I mainly take relics for flavour anyway (in this case, my primary Company Commander gets Laurels of Command and his right-hand Primaris Psyker gets the Death Mask). 

 

 

I don't know why our chain of command stops at the Company level. I understand that "company commander" is intentionally nebulous but it's still pretty implied to a captain equivalent. Then we have a colonel character and jump straight a Lord Castellan character.

 

I like the cheap disposable company commanders, but it would be nice to have a one-per-army option for something like a Lord General or Governor-Militant that throws the armory wide open and offers something like an extra order.

 

It will never compete with a space marine captain for killyness (or even Straken) but it would at least be a generic human that's loaded for bear with a flag rank.

 

Agreed.

[FallenSoldiers]

A single LR is vulnerable, but target saturation makes them tougher IMO. I typically field 4 (TC in a Punisher, 2 Battle Cannons and an Executioner), and I’ll lose wounds on them but typically they survive the game. Of course, I typically wound my Executioner more than my opponent does through supercharging it every single time.

 

The major exception is if an opponent is able to get into CC vs them. The inability to do anything if you fall back hurts.

[FallenSoldiers]

As special characters, I’ll take Harker with my Catachans since he occupies an elite slot. I’ll also take Yarrick if I’m facing my friends Orks (he always brings Ghaz) just because it’s fun.

 

Otherwise I like to run CC with the Aquila and a Tempestor Prime with a Command rod and laurels. Rerolling 1s and rerolling wounds vs monsters/tanks makes my Plasma Tempestus Command squad a serious power house.

[noigrim]

Pask is the best tank commander, 2+BS for only +1PL!

With the recent nerfs I would take him in an spearhead, since my infantry are going with valhalla anyway

[TheShredder]

Time isn’t permitting me many games these days, so I’m only a ‘codex’ general at this point in 8th. That said, it’s putting a frown on my face hearing that LRs are still so squishy. I can’t find a printed reason not to take Pask, but if he’s really that vulnerable on the tabletop, I will have to reconsider.

 

Well, one thing you could do is get a couple of Primaris Psykers or Astropaths and cast Psychic Barrier and Nightshroud on Pask each turn. 

 

Our Psykers are cheap and pretty decent, so it's not a bad idea to include some anyway (and if Pask does die they can always buff other Leman Russ tanks instead).

 

Anyway, by doing this you can hopefully create more of a dilemma for your opponent - do they try and kill Pask (who's more valuable but also more heavily-buffed) or do they go after your unprotected (but less valuable) tanks?

 

Another tactic could be to try and keep Pask a little further back than your other tanks (so give him weapons with 36+" range - not a Punisher or a Demolisher). Of course, this does mean giving up some BS2+ Punisher/Demolisher goodness, so it's up to you.

 

Regarding my earlier comments, I prefer to spread my points around as much as possible (so many cheap units rather than one or two expensive ones). And, unfortunately, this rule basically precludes Tank Commanders altogether. However, this is just my personal philosophy/playstyle for IG - I know that there are others who swear by Tank Commanders, so please don't let me discourage you from using them.   

 

One thing I will say though - I'd definitely advise against having Pask or a regular Tank Commander as your warlord. Aside from a dubious Warlord Trait, I think it just makes them too much of a target.

 

 

 

Otherwise I like to run CC with the Aquila and a Tempestor Prime with a Command rod and laurels. Rerolling 1s and rerolling wounds vs monsters/tanks makes my Plasma Tempestus Command squad a serious power house.

 

Laurels on a Tempestor Prime is a nice idea. The only issue I have is that mine rarely last a turn, so they won't get to use them for long. 

 

 

Also, I like that mask on the primaris; very valid points

[FallenSoldiers]

My Primes never last long either! However, 1/3 times the Laurels are free thanks to my WL trait and if it turns that squad into a suicide squad that takes out a serious threat... I’ll risk it! Anything that they get after that initial volley I consider to be a bonus most of the time LOL!!

[TheShredder]

My Primes never last long either! However, 1/3 times the Laurels are free thanks to my WL trait and if it turns that squad into a suicide squad that takes out a serious threat... I’ll risk it! Anything that they get after that initial volley I consider to be a bonus most of the time LOL!!

 

Yeah, that's a good point.

 

Thinking about it, I guess it's not much different to the Dagger relic.