Conquering the Warp

[b1soul]

I'm thinking of the Emperor's ultimate goal of mastering/marginalising the Warp in MoM...

 

The Warp is really a reflection of human nature...

 

Agression, desire, despair, scheming, etc. A whole spectrum of emotions, impulses, feelings, thoughts

 

To conquer the Warp, humanity would have to conquer its own fundamental nature and change to a different mode of being.

 

The struggles of the Imperium may be an allegory for real-world humanity's struggles to "improve" its own nature.

 

Is it even possible? Is it truly an improvement?

 

What would the Emperor's preferred Imperium be? Would it be like the movie Equilibrium, where human beings are emotionless drones all striving for the good of the species?

 

What is more human than powerful emotions like anger, lust, etc.? Without the Warp, would life even be worth living?

 

Sure the Warp is a daemon-infested hell, a constant risk...but if that's the price to pay for living a life of passion, pain, despair, hope, joy, anger, etc. ... some would say the risk is worth it? Would you?

[Kierdale]

Perhaps via the Hydra...

[GreyCrow]

@b1soul : What do you have against everybody striving for the Greater Good? :P

[Vesper]

"The Emperor's most long-sighted plan to counter the insiduous influences of the Chaos Powers was the creation of the Primarchs: genetically engeneered super-humans with god-like powers. The Emperor's intention was to create a whole race of super-humans from the genetic blueprint of the Primarchs. By making them loyal and strong he hoped that they would prove immune to the malign psychic influences of Chaos."
Realm of Chaos : The Lost and the Damned - page 177.

 

So, genocide's the plan ? You could argue it has been retconned and maybe it has, I don't really know for sure. But the goal in MoM is to colonize the webway, not to conquer the warp.

[b1soul]

Conquer the Warp figuratively I mean

 

Basically to eliminate its influence

[JH79]

What is more human than powerful emotions like anger, lust, etc.? Without the Warp, would life even be worth living?

 

Sure the Warp is a daemon-infested hell, a constant risk...but if that's the price to pay for living a life of passion, pain, despair, hope, joy, anger, etc. ... some would say the risk is worth it? Would you?

Interesting post!

 

The problem with this bit is perspective. Our perspective is one of experience. We know what hope, desire, passion and pain actually are. To the emotionless people of the future Imperium mentioned here they wouldn't miss anything. It's hard to crave something you've never experienced.

 

As for the warp, I'd call it more than a risk. Anything that justifies mothers eating their own babies, people being turned inside out so some douchbag can finger their remains to scry the future or a hundred other acts of such evil it still shocks me from time to time is worth killing off, at any cost. That is the vision and the perspective i believe The Emperor had in trying to usher humanity to it's physically evolved state. Any sacrifice, no matter how big or small, is necessary to protect the future of the species, even if it means chaining yourself to a golden psychic pain engine for circa 10k years after taking the worst beating of your life!

[Kelborn]

I'm curious.

The Emperor knows about the dark gods, the warp and the webway, etc.

 

Is he aware of the Necrons and their attempts of cutting off the warp?

 

If so, why not going after it? Out of fear that psykers like himself would die? Afraid of awakening the Necrons?

 

Was he aware of the Cadian pylons?

 

I assume that either he was not aware or he did not dare to touch those archeotech, leaving the colonization of the webway left as a solution.

 

But the webway can be breached by chaos. It would be an improvement but maybe not the ultimate one to get rid off the warp...

[Phoebus]

I think it was a combination of things.

 

I don't know to what extent the old plan, from Realms of Chaos, was taken into consideration when the newer lore was written. I feel comfortable saying that the plan to shepherd and safeguard Humanity through its evolution to becoming a more psychic species plays a more central role (even if it's still firmly in the background).

 

I don't think the Emperor was omniscient (much less omnipotent), because while he was clearly able to find his primarchs (despite them being scattered throughout the galaxy) there doesn't appear to have been any plan whatsoever to find or capitalize on Cadia, much less any of the Necron Tomb Worlds. The lore alludes to the Emperor fighting a Necron presence on Mars, but there's no evidence this fight revealed to him anything of the struggles of the Necrons against Chaos. At any rate, I don't think it's a coincidence that the Emperor's single most ambitious project for defeating Chaos was the Imperial Webway: the doorway to that entire plan was both literally and figuratively under what would become his palace.

 

While it's fair to say that the Webway solves only a single problem, being able to connect a galactic empire without having to go through an Event Horizon sequel just to get from one system to another is still a remarkable leap forward. What would the Emperor's next step be? I think we would have eventually seen a more sane and more effective Adeptus Terra. Humanity would have been guarded through the "growing pains" of its psychic evolution through life-long discipline. I don't know if it would have quite touched on the extremes of Equilibrium, but I don't think it's beyond the realm of possibility that the Emperor's cure for the ills of Chaos was an atheist society where everyone maintained a balance of contentedness and intense focus and discipline.

[bluntblade]

Ironically, it might've looked a lot like Prospero as a Galaxy-wide society. The plan would also have taken millennia, with time needed to stabilise the Imperium and prepare the ground for humanity to accept its evolution.

[Marshal Rohr]

The Webway is infinite though. Infinite can't be colonized, can it?

[Xisor]

The Webway is infinite though. Infinite can't be colonized, can it?

The Universe is essentially infinite, yet it is colonised.

[MrDarth151]

The Webway is infinite though. Infinite can't be colonized, can it?

 

Eldar's did it. Dark Eldars still live in it.

[Marshal Rohr]

Yes, well you can live in it, but not conquer the whole thing. They didn’t conquer the new world with the thirteen colonies.

[b1soul]

That might not be a great analogy as European colonists did eventually spread out from the 13 colonies to colonise all of the continental United States at the expense of the indigenous population

Same thing happened in Canada and Central/South America.

 

Regardless, this thread is about figuratively "conquering" the Warp, not literally conquering the Warp or Webway by occupying it.

[Phoebus]

My guess is that the Emperor believed he could control enough of the Webway to effectively connect the Imperium of Man without having to expose the species to the Warp anymore than it needed to be.

 

The thing about Prospero, bluntblade, is that it was a sort of utopia where knowledge was the apex being sought. The Emperor's plans were clearly centered on survival, and the means by which he sought to achieve it were quite draconian. I'm not dismissing the idea that, on a long enough timeline, the Emperor wanted a peaceful and comfortable existence for Humanity... but I sincerely doubt this will have involved any sort society wherein people were encouraged to learn without boundaries.

[The_son_of_Dorn]

The warp is not just a reflection of humanity but of existance itself. All beings sentient or not have feelings with or without a frame of reference to give them context.

 

The warp itself is a different plane of existance, where evil can manifest and form based on the emotional wellbeing of a mass of individuals or life forms.

 

Problem is in order to transend the influence of the warp humans and all other forms of life would need to overcome their base instinct and emotions the create a "calm" warp.

 

Who knows, maybe if the galaxy held hands and all got along the warp would start to reflect a utopia.

Edited November 11, 2017 by The_son_of_Dorn

[b1soul]

Even if the Webway could satisfy humanity's need for galactic travel...I don't really see how that significantly reduces Mankind's exposure to the Warp.

 

Human emotions will still fuel the Warp and incur the risk of Warp breaches.

 

The Eldar used the Webway and still got consumed by Slaanesh.

 

Perhaps, with a fully operational Imperial Webway, knowledge of the Warp's existence could be completely suppressed and that would weaken the Chaos Gods?

[MrDarth151]

Perhaps, with a fully operational Imperial Webway, knowledge of the Warp's existence could be completely suppressed and that would weaken the Chaos Gods?

 

Nope!

 

I mean, really. Chaos has pulled "Screw the rules, we have Grimdark!" regularly enough that any idea that you could actually successfully pull off something like that becomes laughable.

 

And kinda sad, really.

[Phoebus]

The_son_of_Dorn,

 

Agreed, which is why I more and more am leaning toward the idea that a victorious Emperor would've reformed the whole of human society into something resembling an austere, ascetic version of the Adeptus Terra. Contentment through purpose and discipline - physical, mental, and spiritual.

b1soul,

 

Slaanesh came about because the Dark Eldar took their schtick to the nth degree on a galactic scale. I don't think one can underestimate the threat that mere interstellar travel poses to Humanity. Each and every voyage runs, under normal conditions, the risk of time travel or of never ever arriving anywhere; each and every vessel is one critical malfunction away from replicating the Event Horizon's maiden voyage. Basically, I don't think it's a coincidence that this and controlling the psyker population were the top two projects on the Emperor's list besides conquering the galaxy.

MrDarth151,

 

Sure, but that's hindsight and omniscient perspective speaking. With no snark attached, I'm curious to know what your alternative would be. Is it a case of a different idea, or of conceding defeat against an enemy that is impossible to defeat?

[b1soul]

I agree...well, I have no choice but to agree...that Warp travel is hazardous, but I doubt the "Event Horizon" rate is anywhere near 50% with functional Gellar fields.

 

The Imperium could not survive for ten millennia like that.

 

I think a realistic figure would be between 2 to 5 percent for ships with functional Gellar fields. For ships with Gellar fields suffering from significant defects, the rate would be higher depending on the degree of faultiness.

 

Anyone have figures based on fluff?

 

Whatever the numbers are...I think the significance is that it's hard to suppress the truth of the Warp when everyone is using the Warp and may not always close the shutters in time. The truth is gonna slip out and propagate.

Edited November 11, 2017 by b1soul

[MrDarth151]

 

MrDarth151,

 

Sure, but that's hindsight and omniscient perspective speaking. With no snark attached, I'm curious to know what your alternative would be. Is it a case of a different idea, or of conceding defeat against an enemy that is impossible to defeat?

 

It's the case of poor writing.

 

The man behind the plan is The Emperor of Mankind. Supposedly the greatest genius who ever lived with unparalleled knowledge of the dangers of the warp. In reality, at times so inept at being a proper tyrant that the less successful rulers of our history would do decidedly better job.

 

This isn't hindsight. The man is portrayed as incapable of properly taking care of Terra, and I'm supposed to buy he would be capable of enforcing full scale transformation of Humanity? There is a slum just outside Imperial Palace where people have a temple of worship. An official on Terra can create an army with intention of sedition and conduct ethnic cleansing, and yet is left in power for long enough to be able to steal an entire ocean. Twenty of his best agents, superhumans to boot, are unable to uncover corruption in the World Bearers for half a century, when there are regular human sacrifices going on in the same ship as they are.

 

At the end of the Great Crusade there were two millions planets within the Imperium of Mankind. The Emperor can't handle one.

 

It's the reason I despise Chaos as a enemy from storytelling perspective. The actual conflict does not matter. Grimdark will hand them victory. Kinda renders most stories superfluous. 

Edited November 11, 2017 by MrDarth151

[Phoebus]

I don't dispute most of what you said above. I guess, to clarify my own position some, I'm thinking more of the macro-level plan, which is only briefly mentioned or alluded to, versus the micro-level execution, whose depictions are unfortunately often unsatisfying. That is to say, Graham McNeill's depiction of Terra outside the Imperial Palace doesn't necessarily factor in my estimation of a broad-strokes outline of the Emperor's plan for the species.

 

To put it another way, I won't let the fact that I didn't enjoy large parts of The Outcast Dead keep me from appreciating what the author was trying to convey with Master of Mankind.

[bluntblade]

My guess is that the Emperor believed he could control enough of the Webway to effectively connect the Imperium of Man without having to expose the species to the Warp anymore than it needed to be.

 

The thing about Prospero, bluntblade, is that it was a sort of utopia where knowledge was the apex being sought. The Emperor's plans were clearly centered on survival, and the means by which he sought to achieve it were quite draconian. I'm not dismissing the idea that, on a long enough timeline, the Emperor wanted a peaceful and comfortable existence for Humanity... but I sincerely doubt this will have involved any sort society wherein people were encouraged to learn without boundaries.

Agreed. I'm thinking the late phases rather than from Webway conquest onwards

[MrDarth151]

I don't dispute most of what you said above. I guess, to clarify my own position some, I'm thinking more of the macro-level plan, which is only briefly mentioned or alluded to, versus the micro-level execution, whose depictions are unfortunately often unsatisfying. That is to say, Graham McNeill's depiction of Terra outside the Imperial Palace doesn't necessarily factor in my estimation of a broad-strokes outline of the Emperor's plan for the species.

 

To put it another way, I won't let the fact that I didn't enjoy large parts of The Outcast Dead keep me from appreciating what the author was trying to convey with Master of Mankind.

 

The problem is that those issues are extremely obvious if you sit down for a minute and think about it, so I have big problems with a character supposedly as smart and knowledgeable as the Emperor of Mankind coming up with this plan.

 

I don't like when people's characteristics are informed attributes. And so is viability of the Emperor's plan non existing. That was, in the end, what killed Master of Mankind for me as a novel: the war for the webway has no gravity for me, because the idea that the Emperor can actually achieve his plan and save humanity, even if he succeeds, is laughable at best.

 

The Webway plan was never particularly convincing, and I will note that I consider it a mistake that BL pushed it as essential component for saving humanity, instead of simply being a better alternative to Warp travel.

 

Because, in the end, what does it achieve? Humanity is not reliant on Navigators and Astropaths any more. And? If we look to how Chaos operates, they are not actually the source of the problem. It solves nothing.

 

I'm sorry, but if BL puts no effort towards making His plan look viable, I am not going to threat it as such. In similar way to how I'm going to roll my eyes at every time Roboute pines for the pre-heresy era when by all accounts it was functionally the same as post-heresy one, only with shinier toys.

 

It's just been something that has been annoying me lately. If GW and BL want to push constant Grimdark, fine, that is their prerogative, but you cannot really have a cookie and eat it at the same time.

Edited November 11, 2017 by MrDarth151

[Phoebus]

Again, this reads a lot like hindsight and a perspective that benefits from being a reader.

 

Let's consider this from the perspective of the Emperor, who was the most powerful human ever... but was neither omniscient nor omnipotent:

The Emperor was aware of the Ruinous Powers, of the nature of the Warp, of the burgeoning psychic evolution of Mankind, and of the inherent dangers involved in interstellar travel and the use of psyker powers. Every instance of Warp travel potentially exposed the travelers involved to forces inimical to them, and stood a good chance of inflicting random time travel or even causing them to not arrive at all. Likewise, every instance of Astropathy potentially exposed the messengers and recipients involved to madness, death, or worse. That is to say, the fundamental processes on which human beings would need to rely on to maintain something approaching a cohesive interstellar society capable of defending itself against the multitude of horrors populating their Galaxy were, paradoxically, the greatest dangers they faced (war against the aforementioned horrors aside). By minimizing this to "just" Navigators and Astropaths, you're essentially dismissing how important these concepts are to this universe. We're literally talking about the only means of inter-stellar communication (other than hand-carrying a message through Literally Hell) and the only means of inter-stellar travel (other than journeying through Literally Hell).

 

So no, the Webway was not merely a "better alternative."

 

Don't get me wrong, it's fair to point out that it, in and of itself, does not solve the fundamental problems the Emperor was facing. The real work would still have been ahead of him: bringing about a society that minimizes the influence of Chaos on its citizens, with an ultimate goal of helping Humanity evolve psychically enough to resist the Ruinous Powers. What the Webway would have done, however, is provided the means by which the Emperor could maintain a unified Imperium - a prerequisite for the society in question.

 

Bottom line, I would offer you the opposite of your argument: far from thinking of the Webway as laughable, I think the Emperor's biggest mistake was prioritizing his other efforts ahead of it. To hear if from the Adeptus Custodes, after all, when the Webway was lost the Great Crusade was lost with it. Any assumption I make about the Webway or any other project of the Emperor's, though, comes in the absence of any real perspective from the Emperor. I understand, on some level, why the Black Library authors don't want to go too deep into that, but at the same time I think they understand that the story suffers when you don't know why certain things are done. More to the point, without the context, decisions can seem arbitrary or foolish.

 

A good historical example I'd offer is that of Alexander the Great returning from modern day Pakistan through the desert of Gedrosia. The most brilliant warlord of his age, a guy who hitherto had proven himself to be a master of logistics, somehow decided to march a good bulk of his army and its camp followers through a dead zone. For most of the 20th century, historians called into question both his intelligence and his sanity. The problem was that no primary sources from Alexander's time survived, with the closest records being biographies based on works written by his contemporaries. It wasn't until a historian with a minor obsession for logistics pointed out something that most academics wouldn't have recognized: Alexander couldn't march a population of a size greater than most cities of that time (reckoned to be over 120,000 people, including camp followers) back the same way he had. To do so would have devastated lands he had already marched through and drawn food and resources from over several years of warfare. Instead, he split his army in three parts. He raised a navy in the coastline of what is modern Pakistan, and attached one part of his army to crew it. He sent a second part back the way they had come, as those lands would be able to handle the passage of 25,000 soldiers with minimal animals. He accompanied the third part through the desert of Gedrosia, not because of any death-wish but because it was understood that they would follow the coastline and make continuous link-ups with his navy, which would be responsible for re-supplying them with food and water. Unfortunately for everyone involved, the plan didn't work and many soldiers perished due to thirst and exposure in Gedrosia.

 

Where the Emperor is concerned, who can know why the Primarchs and the Legiones Astartes were prioritized ahead of the Webway, or if this was even the case? Who can know whether or not external actors forced the Emperor's hand into launching the Great Crusade before the Webway could become viable, or delayed efforts in the Imperial Webway one way or another?

 

I don't know the answers to these questions. I don't think Black Library authors should be immune to criticism for the way they've depicted the Emperor or his works. I don't think it's fair, however, to say that his plan was a fool's errand on the basis of what little we know.