Conquering the Warp

[Mellow]

Maybe sitting on the Golden toilet is all part of the cunning plan.

 

Or probably not as that would be too nice for grimdark

[mc warhammer]

If He was so clever why then was Terra not a Utopian society? 

 

i don't care how competent or intelligent one man is. i reckon utopia is an impossibility

 

 

Anyway, humanity would be better off extinct than living in the Emperor's vision of its future, even if he had been able to succeed.

 

 

 

wasn't his vision a type of extinction, depending on your interpretation?

[bluntblade]

Thereis compromise at pretty much ever level of the Crusade.

[Phoebus]

mhacdebhandia,

 

Of course no one has the right to make decisions for all human beings, but that sort of morality is informed by the real universe, where (to my knowledge) supernatural, godlike forces don't pose an existential threat to all human beings. The Warhammer 40k universe is one where that is the case. So yes, the options available are rather harsh:

1. The Cabal essentially wanted to see humanity exterminated. Their proposal was that achieving this would essentially remove the threat that Chaos posed to sentient beings.

 

2. The alternative, according to the Cabal, was millennia of misery and slow death... until Chaos won anyways.

 

3. The Emperor believed that he could shepherd Humanity to a stage where they would no longer be threatened by Chaos.

 

Speaking for myself, I don't think we have nearly enough information about the Emperor's plans post-Great Crusade to argue that extinction would have been preferable. The ideological inheritors of his closest confidants (the Adeptus Custodes) view the modern Imperium as a sort of tragic parody - a sick, dying, joke - of his dream for Humanity, so we might consider that the dystopia that was ushered in after the Scouring is far worse than what he'd intended.

 

Mellow,

 

The Emperor was not omnipotent. This is complete conjecture on my part, but I suspect the scattering of the Primarchs accelerated the timeline for the Great Crusade.

[Mellow]

Well the whole scattering thing is odd because in the novel where Horus witnessed Him turning His back on the pods as they were swept away would mean that He wasn’t particularly bothered about them going.

 

Did He know He would find them later? Was the scattering part of the alleged deal that He had with the Chaos Gods?

 

We will never know.

[Marshal Rohr]

Excited for this. John is a great author.

[Phoebus]

Well the whole scattering thing is odd because in the novel where Horus witnessed Him turning His back on the pods as they were swept away would mean that He wasn’t particularly bothered about them going.

Did He know He would find them later? Was the scattering part of the alleged deal that He had with the Chaos Gods?

We will never know.

Ignoring for a second the fact that Horus is being shown carefully chosen glimpses of the past and the future, sans context but with a healthy heaping of both lies of omission and outright lies, the vortex that steals the primarchs emerges before the Emperor arrives. When he does show up, the Emperor actually stops the pods from being stolen for a moment, but then makes a decision and lets them go.

 

Nothing from that scene leads me to think that sequence of events was pre-arranged by the Emperor. Combined with his portrayal in The Outcast Dead, however, I feel comfortable positing that the Emperor has the same kind of prescience that is shown in the Dune novels: he doesn’t possess absolute knowledge of the future; he knows certain things will happen, but is powerless to affect them; he goes through with his plans because he sees a (shrinking) number of futures where certain courses of action can nonetheless achieve victory.

 

My guess? During that scene, the Emperor acknowledged that Chaos was capable of stealing his Primarchs. That fact being recognized, he searched the possible futures and weighed the consequences of letting them go. He saw a path of hope (recovering flawed Primarchs who could nonetheless conquer the galaxy for him), and allowed them to be scattered.

Edited November 22, 2017 by Phoebus

[Ascanius]

mhacdebhandia,

 

Of course no one has the right to make decisions for all human beings, but that sort of morality is informed by the real universe, where (to my knowledge) supernatural, godlike forces don't pose an existential threat to all human beings. The Warhammer 40k universe is one where that is the case.

 

Chaos doesn't actually pose any more existential a threat to human beings than entropy does in our universe - and, like entropy, it's an irresistible fact of the universe anyway, so what's the use?

 

Plus, the existence of an existential threat doesn't mean any action undertaken to forestall that threat is morally correct, so even if the Emperor really was the only person who could have "beaten" Chaos - and I think events demonstrate he wasn't actually so capable - that doesn't make it right for him to do so.

 

Anyway, I say extinction is preferable to the Emperor's plan for two reasons:

 

1) The Emperor's quite literally the most tyrannical ruler in human history, willing to spend the coin of anyone's life to achieve his goals. Even if he'd succeeded he'd have condemned humanity to an existence without freedom, living as he prescribed they must to be "safe." It might have been better than what the Imperium became, but that doesn't make it good.

 

2) He didn't succeed, which calls into question whether he was as capable as he believed himself to be - and the cost of his arrogance has so far been paid by 10,000 years' worth of humans living in misery, torment, and fear.

Edited November 20, 2017 by mhacdebhandia

[Phoebus]

With respect, you're making it sound like the Emperor's efforts are the equivalent of a normal person trying to fight back against naturally occurring volcanic eruptions or earthquakes... and I just can't agree with that line of thinking.

 

Entropy is not sentient or malicious. The Ruinous Powers are, and the Long Night was a direct result of their efforts. The whole point of the Emperor is that he recognizes that everything humanity suffered over millennia isn't random, and chooses to do something about it.

 

Likewise, I don't agree with your breakdown of the Emperor's motivations. Don't get me wrong, I have no problem acknowledging that the Emperor was absolutely ruthless in trying to shepherd Humanity. What I think is clear, however, is that it's not so much a case of "his goals" as much as "his goals for Humanity." With that in mind, you're making two big assumptions:

 

1.That the state of Humanity circa M30 was an acceptable status quo. In fact, we know that Terra was monumentally worse off before the Emperor, and that the human galactic diaspora was, by and large, subjected to nightmarish enemies and masters. Only through hindsight do we know how what tragedy the struggle against Chaos would result in, and even then we can't verifiably say that life in the Imperium of Man is worse than life in the Age of Strife.

 

2. What his desired endstate for Humanity was, period.

Edited November 21, 2017 by Phoebus

[Mellow]

I agree. The Emperor clearly didn’t want Humanity to be extinct. He wanted Humanity to dominate the Galaxy and be safe from Warp dangers.

 

He probably remembered that Xenos didn’t exactly ever help Humanity in the past so didn’t see any reason to co-exist with them.

[Phoebus]

This is nothing more than an assumption on my part, but I don't think the Emperor saw xenos as anything more than obstacles. That is to say, I don't think he held grudges, hated them, or anything like that. He just needed those that enslaved humans removed, because they were in the way of him reunifying mankind. The fact that the warriors who ushered in his young Imperium of Man hated xenos (likely as a result of the predations humanity suffered during the Long Night) was probably irrelevant to him. That's not to say that leaders and organizations within his Imperium didn't cultivate that hate on an institutional basis; just that this sort of thing was so far below the Emperor's focus.

[Ascanius]

I could argue about whether it matters that Chaos is actively malicious while entropy (so far as we know) is not, or whether the Emperor's plan would have been good if it had worked, but that's a sideshow.

 

For me, it boils down to the fact that the Emperor doesn't have the right to do what he does. The scale of the threat, his singular capabilities and vision, whatever justification you might name - none of them actually justify enslaving the entire species to his will, forcing all of humanity onto the path that leads to the destiny he wants us to have.

 

The Emperor states that the path he outlined is the only way for humanity to survive its evolution into a more psychic race . . . but is it?

 

Besides that question, I do wonder how he intends to shepherd humanity into becoming fully psychic race while also "severing their connection to the Warp", as he puts it in The Master of Mankind, considering that psychic powers are dependent upon the Warp.

 

The fact that he failed so completely that he condemned humanity to nightmarish millennia of superstition and religious dogma, one of the things he most wanted to avoid as it makes humanity susceptible to the Warp, is just the rotting cherry on top of a terribly misbegotten and poisonous sundae.

[Marshal Rohr]

Arguments about the Emperor being a Tyrant fundamentally rely on a modern interpretation of political and social structures that don’t apply in a universe where people are actually superior to other groups of people. This universe is very much built on hierarchies of ability and merit, which places the Emperor right at the top of the human hierarchy. I mean, honestly, if a being existed with the power of the Emperor no one alive today would be his equal and he would right to rule. Might, in a literal sense, makes right.

[Ascanius]

I couldn't disagree more. I think that's utterly ridiculous.

[Phoebus]

I could argue about whether it matters that Chaos is actively malicious while entropy (so far as we know) is not, ... but that's a sideshow.

Of course it’s not a side show, man. There’s a huge difference between me unifying the population of New York by force to build a better subway system because I’m opposed to tectonic movements and me doing the same because the current subway system, which is our only way of getting from one borough to the other also happens to be Literally Hell.

 

For me, it boils down to the fact that the Emperor doesn't have the right to do what he does.

Of course he doesn’t. No one said he did. The sole argument I’m presenting to you is that you have too limited a perspective on this universe to pass judgment, and that you’re doing so on the basis of assumptions. Beyond that, I’m providing context for the Emperor’s decision to take matters into his own hands. That is to say, it’s disingenuous to say, “The Imperium of Man in the year M41 sucks, ergo the Emperor was wrong to even try” while ignoring that the state of humanity in M31 absolutely dire at the very other end of the spectrum.

 

The Emperor states that the path he outlined is the only way for humanity to survive its evolution into a more psychic race . . . but is it?

See above. With the amount of information you have available, you could just as easily be asking” “Isn’t it?”

 

Besides that question, I do wonder how he intends to shepherd humanity into becoming fully psychic race while also "severing their connection to the Warp", as he puts it in The Master of Mankind, considering that psychic powers are dependent upon the Warp.

Who knows? Edited November 22, 2017 by Phoebus

[mc warhammer]

 

For me, it boils down to the fact that the Emperor doesn't have the right to do what he does.

Of course he doesn’t. No one said he did. The sole argument I’m presenting to you is that you have too limited a perspective on this universe to pass judgment, and that you’re doing so on the basis of assumptions. Beyond that, I’m providing context for the Emperor’s decision to take matters into his own hands. That is to say, it’s disingenuous to say, “The Imperium of Man in the year M41 sucks, ergo the Emperor was wrong to even try” while ignoring that the state of humanity in M31 absolutely dire at the very other end of the spectrum.

 

 

 

well...except marshall rohr, two posts above

 

 

the sole argument I’m presenting to you is that you have too limited a perspective on this universe to pass judgment, and that you’re doing so on the basis of assumptions. Beyond that, I’m providing context for the Emperor’s decision to take matters into his own hands. That is to say, it’s disingenuous to say, “The Imperium of Man in the year M41 sucks, ergo the Emperor was wrong to even try” while ignoring that the state of humanity in M31 absolutely dire at the very other end of the spectrum.

 

 

 

eh. you can go for an in-universe empathetic reading as you have, but i don't think that makes mhacdebhandia's irl interpretation invalid (if that's what it even is). i mean, it appears that there are enough characters within 30/40k itself that agree with him (that perpetual whasisname for instance. the cabal. and some of the primarchs themselves)

 

i'm all for reading to understand or escape into a new/twisted point of view. get immersed. that's the fun of 40k. but it's hard not to consciously compare to, and impossible not to unconsciously filter through, our own modern day sensibilities. i'd even go as far as to argue that we all should.

 

which is why i don't have a problem with the ideas of nihilism in 40k, since we don't have to embrace those concepts ourselves. it's a perverse mirror to stare into for however long it takes you to read a book.

 

I mean, honestly, if a being existed with the power of the Emperor no one alive today would be his equal and he would right to rule. Might, in a literal sense, makes right.

 

yikes. fan of atlas shrugged by any chance?

Edited November 22, 2017 by mc warhammer

[Phoebus]

I completely missed his closing point. Gah, I guess I should speak for myself!

 

Beyond that, please don't get me wrong: I'm not opposed to anyone sharing their feelings on the universe or the characters populating it. I think we should be careful about passing judgment on either as if we're presenting facts, though. There are things we know about this setting (e.g., Humanity's mindset toward technology and innovation is tragically stunted and shaped around religious mysticism), but there are also things we know very little about (in this case, the Emperor's plans and desired outcomes).

 

By the way, trust me: it is not lost to me that I'm as guilty as the next person of sometimes passing off my opinions as "the right way." I don't want to come off as a hypocrite. "I recognize my failings ..." and so on.

[mc warhammer]

I completely missed his closing point. Gah, I guess I should speak for myself!

 

Beyond that, please don't get me wrong: I'm not opposed to anyone sharing their feelings on the universe or the characters populating it. I think we should be careful about passing judgment on either as if we're presenting facts, though. There are things we know about this setting (e.g., Humanity's mindset toward technology and innovation is tragically stunted and shaped around religious mysticism), but there are also things we know very little about (in this case, the Emperor's plans and desired outcomes).

 

By the way, trust me: it is not lost to me that I'm as guilty as the next person of sometimes passing off my opinions as "the right way." I don't want to come off as a hypocrite. "I recognize my failings ..." and so on.

 

 

its a funny thing, on the one hand, you would assume that anything expressed on a message board is an opinion, without the need to state it as such. on the other, it does help discussion...vibes... when we do.

 

i don't recall seeing mhacdebhandia state his/her opinion as fact, but i'm a skim reader. i do think everything they have written is valid and well thought out though and gels with some of the BL literature as written.

 

yep, just my opinion.

[Phoebus]

I could, of course, simply be reading too much into their position.

[mc warhammer]

I could, of course, simply be reading too much into their position.

 

b&c is definitely one of the more mature forums i visit on the net, as your post proves. it's kinda refreshing but... also unsettling.

[Marshal Rohr]

I couldn't disagree more. I think that's utterly ridiculous.

Why would it be ridiculous, when we are talking about a being with literal god-like powers....

[mc warhammer]

 

I couldn't disagree more. I think that's utterly ridiculous.

Why would it be ridiculous, when we are talking about a being with literal god-like powers....

 

 

divine right throughout history was always a bad thing.

 

and don't we have a tonne of literature warning or deconstructing that idea? that such a being would still not automatically be right, no matter how mighty? right now i can only think of works by alan moore and warren ellis, but i'm sure there's been more.

 

those stories usually contain lots of massacres on a global scale, even when the being is benign.

[b1soul]

Might, in a literal sense, makes right.

That is generally how the world turns...aye

[mc warhammer]

 

Might, in a literal sense, makes right.

That is generally how the world turns...aye

edit. depending on whether we’re going with marshal’s literal definition of the phrase or the classic meaning, i’ll reserve comment

Edited November 22, 2017 by mc warhammer

[Marshal Rohr]

Alan Moore is a great story teller, but he’s not a political scientist. Transhumanism is a real area of fo us for some political scientists in the way AI or quantum communication is. Say, tomorrow, a human with the power to control minds was revealed. The idea of self-determination disappears. Should a person have the ability to hear thoughts? Privacy is no longer a right that could be enforced. The political and social system bends to the will of the super human the same way that the planet has bent to the will of Homo sapiens over other animals. We domesticate them and keep them as pets, so would any form of person that existed above the human baseline (some people apply this to sentient AIs well, I’m sure you’re more familiar with those theories like the singularity, etc).

 

This sounds like a lot of Snapple bottle philosophy, sure, but people with letters after their name have put a lot of ink on paper about what it would mean to create a super human or advanced intelligence. This isn’t Marshal Rohr on the BnC’s idea. I’ve seen academics, futurists, and even dudes like Elon Musk all worry about the way the system would be changed by a powerful being.