Chapter Approved - Deathwatch Changes

[Vel'Cona]

Wow, not even a proper table of WTs?  Pretty phoned-in IMO 

 

I know they need to save some bacon for the codex but a proper d3 of WTs would have been nice . . .

Edited November 29, 2017 by Vel'Cona

[Prot]

It's certainly a disappointment, but I'm going to daydream about the positives for a bit.

 

The Storm Shield fix finally trickling down is a fairly big deal.  Those things are a big deal for Vet squads and their prior price made them impossible to really cover your Troops properly.  Now you can arguably put in 2, which is a little bit of a band aid to the general problem Vets have with survivability.  Slightly toning down things like Smite spam helps us too overall in a really backhanded sort of way.

 

The nerfs sting but at least they were to crutches that we weren't even really the optimal use of anyway.  TAC Razorbacks helped prop up some issues with the army, but anyone could arguably do it at least as well with options to do it better.  At least now its easier to see what in the army can be buffed to give it a unique edge.  The only major issue is the Blackstar got caught in the crossfire and could really use a little love now; ideally something upping its accuracy or improving the bombard.

 

I'm not expecting GW to ever fix the army.  I'm not exactly sure why they decided to launch it and immediately abandon it, but here we are.  They still seem to be marketing it though, so... maybe? but I'm not going to hold my breath.

 

I do agree, the stormshield 'fix' is nice. I actually used them a lot in 7th fun games, and in more competitive games my HQ squad usually got one or two in the list perhaps. But yea, Mortal Wounds are a big deal now. I'm facing armies that can do so many of them... Deathguard, Tyranids (that one shocked me), especially. (not counting Chaos soup anymore because it should be nerfed).

 

That said I do still see some value in having something that can take a very potent, strong AP shot and possibly walk away from it. I also just like a Termie persquad the way wound allocation works in 8th, it's pretty good for mixed armour.

 

The overall bad news here is the game has turned into a game of extremes (competitively): Right now you wither A) throw down a million models that dominate the table, and can (in theory) plink away at anything up to a Knight if they have to. This usually protects some cannonball unit if you have it, or simply overwhelms you with model count that just doesn't go away fast enough. Or B ) a VERY small list of ominipotent units. The way detachments work I'm seeing more lists taking high end super expensive, hard as a rock characters, screening your shots with super cheap chaff so they can't be shot, then unloading horrific psychics, and CC ability.

 

In both of these cases, Deathwatch (imo) ultimately had to come in far cheaper than they are currently. (and I don't just mean the bodies, I mean the weapons.)

[Moostick]

Veterans coming in cheaper seem unlikely because GW appears to follow the "if it has the same stats, it should cost the same points" mindset, without reviewing how well it would fare in an actual game.

 

DW are a good example of this with things like IHB and HTH. I can understand why they would believe they are worth 25 and 30 pts, respectively, when compared to other options based on stats/profiles alone. In practice though, they are most definitely not worth those points. IHB with the fact you'd rarely ever use both profiles with one being 8" and the other 36", and HTH giving up their ranged weapon.

 

Veterans won't ever be less than 16 points because of Wolf/Stern guard, so the change to SIA cost will be a huge factor on how well DW fares. It should either be an optional 2 points (like special issue boltgun), or if they really want to increase our competitive edge - a free faction-wide ability. I may be biased, but I think having to take 16 point troops is already enough of a handicap. Elite armies with no cheap troop options like GK need the same treatment.

[Kargrym]

Veterans coming in cheaper seem unlikely because GW appears to follow the "if it has the same stats, it should cost the same points" mindset, without reviewing how well it would fare in an actual game.

 

DW are a good example of this with things like IHB and HTH. I can understand why they would believe they are worth 25 and 30 pts, respectively, when compared to other options based on stats/profiles alone. In practice though, they are most definitely not worth those points. IHB with the fact you'd rarely ever use both profiles with one being 8" and the other 36", and HTH giving up their ranged weapon.

 

Veterans won't ever be less than 16 points because of Wolf/Stern guard, so the change to SIA cost will be a huge factor on how well DW fares. It should either be an optional 2 points (like special issue boltgun), or if they really want to increase our competitive edge - a free faction-wide ability. I may be biased, but I think having to take 16 point troops is already enough of a handicap. Elite armies with no cheap troop options like GK need the same treatment.

 

I agree, make Vets 16, Vanguard 17, and make SIA a detachment wide function for being Deathwatch. "If your detachment consists entirely of faction <Deathwatch>, weapons that include the name "Bolter" have access to Special Issue Ammo profiles. This would include storm bolters and hurricane bolters and all the primaris bolters.

 

This single change would change everything.

 

As for HTH, that needs to throw mortal wounds or exploding damage somehow to be worth 30 points on a model that has no range and 1 wound.

"on Wound roll of 6 damage rolled is considered mortal" or "on hit roll of 6 add additional hit, this does not carry over to additional 6 beyond the initial"

[Moostick]

I don't agree with making any new weapons be affected by SIA. That would be too much.

[LunarSol]

At the very least, the Infernus needs its Hellfire rounds back.

[Macabre Slanneshi Prince]

I don't agree with making any new weapons be affected by SIA. That would be too much.

Yeah, inceptors with SIA Assault Bolters would be insane.

[Thanatos31]

http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2017/11/40k-new-deathwatch-strategems.html

 

In case you haven’t seen this yet.

[SnakeChisler]

If they gave our inceptors SIA then comp players would be on it like a rash and the next thing would a horrendous price hike points wise.

 

The basic marine + SIA is too expensive, kill teams are too expensive hell everything bar generic marine stuff looks too expensive :( and with a low model count confiscating objective grabbing with the Corvus even if it Hovers is another kick in the teeth for the army.

 

Smite/Mortal spam in our area is pretty prevelent which kicks any elite unit disproportionately.

 

Balance / point wise were currently shafted and the latest news on a comp I've entered in Feb is a rule which nerfs any sort of Imperial or chaos soup list.

[shanewatts]

They could at least give terms Storm bolters SIA.

[Prot]

I like that ideas and termiwa could use a boost this edition anyway.

 

Those two strats are really common in codex armies. I suspect Blood Angels and Dark Angels will have a similar spin. I would have liked the mortal wound bolter round (d3) against Xenos.

[Vel'Cona]

Would SIA actually fix the issues with Terminators, though?  I feel like the only way to really help them is give them a built-in Mortal Wound protection, ie. make their Invul save usable versus MW too or something (which IMO is how it should have been in the first place).

[LunarSol]

Honestly, at the current Primaris prices, I could see everything just getting an extra wound.  Right now DW is something of a glass cannon faction that doesn't hit hard enough to make up for its frailty.  The options are to either make the cannon more effective or the glass a little less brittle.  I'm kind of in favor of the latter, as the former creates one of those "did I go first?" kind of win/loss flowcharts.

[Moostick]

Honestly, at the current Primaris prices, I could see everything just getting an extra wound.  Right now DW is something of a glass cannon faction that doesn't hit hard enough to make up for its frailty.  The options are to either make the cannon more effective or the glass a little less brittle.  I'm kind of in favor of the latter, as the former creates one of those "did I go first?" kind of win/loss flowcharts.

 

This is how I view it as well, although I still have doubts GW will stray from their path and change up stats/points for equivalent unit types. They need to stop thinking Vets are "Deathwatch Sternguards", and as their own unit to move forward.

 

My local meta is primarily horde, so SS does nothing for me. Even with S3/4 AP 0 shots, there are only so many 3+ saves I can make, especially when a 5-man unit can face 50+ shots a turn.

 

I don't think SIA will solve Terminators being terrible. SIA is nice and versatile, but it's really not that good. S4 really only goes so far, and we pay for it for lack of volume of fire. Even though we can potentially wound high T models, we'll still typically use SIA on low T models in most cases.

 

Tac Squads get 50% more bolter shots out for around the same cost, and I think that pretty much makes up for Hellfire/Vengeance rounds. If we do mathhammer on 10 SIA shots VS 15 bolter shots, there actually aren't a lot of cases where SIA come out on top (generally only against high T, non-vehicle models)

[LunarSol]

SIA is nice for anti-horde as well.  Getting the double shots from Rapid Fire at 18" is a really nice bonus that Storm Bolters would love to have access to.

[Irbis]

 

I agree, make Vets 16, Vanguard 17, and make SIA a detachment wide function for being Deathwatch. "If your detachment consists entirely of faction <Deathwatch>, weapons that include the name "Bolter" have access to Special Issue Ammo profiles. This would include storm bolters and hurricane bolters and all the primaris bolters.

 

This single change would change everything.

 

Dunno. You still run into the issue combi-plasma is not worth it and it's better to take a plasma gun, but then squad of vets with 4 plasma guns would be far worse than sternguard with same loadout as they would get actual SM tactic, not useless SIA "buff". Any attempt of tying SIA to units would gimp DW by either making bolt weapons mandatory to not lose special rules or would make other guns worse with hidden tax. IMO the special issue boltgun route is correct one, if SIA tax/rules are tied to guns A) you lose nothing swapping them to something else, B ) we no longer have such issues as RAW problem if Captain's bolter gets SIA or not. Problem solved.

[Macabre Slanneshi Prince]

I think it can be safly assumed we'll get some form of Mission Tactics bace for our Chapter Trait. Could make up for the lack of Lieutenants. 

[LunarSol]

I think it can be safly assumed we'll get some form of Mission Tactics bace for our Chapter Trait. Could make up for the lack of Lieutenants. 

 

To me, the big fix is just that it needs to be worthwhile to take Vanguard/Terminators/Bikers in our Vet squads.  That's the truly unique lever for the faction.  Wound rerolls on squads for Troops/Elites/Fast Attack for having the corresponding addition would be a big improvement that would really give the faction its needed flavor.  It doesn't need to be that specific buff, but if I was tasked with fixing things my goal would essentially be "how do I make something like Kill Team Cassius optimal?"

[Moostick]

I agree that KTs need a major fix, but I also understand it's really not going to be an easy task unless they alter rules or give DW special rules on "universal" things.

 

Even if we give KTs abilities, the lack of transport kind of kills it for anything that needs to get close. LRC is the only thing that might be able to fit a full mixed KT, but it's really a big investment. Even our Corvus only has 12 spots, so it's always going to be limited to Vets + 1 or 2 other. With this, you can only ever get one squad per Corvus/LR, so it's go big or bust for unit size, which will still limit their uses.

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

There is a survey on Warhammer community. Under products least happy with I mentioned Deathwatch, and how it was a newer fraction that is frustrating to play because of how bad they are in 8th,  and how it didn't feel like I got my value back out of it. I really suggest you guys do the same be polite but honest.

[LunarSol]

Corvus is obviously designed for a one of everything:

 

5 Vets = 5

1 Van = 2

1 Term = 2

1 Bike = 3

Total = 12

 

Not being able to transport an HQ is definitely a bit of a problem.  Honestly though as is you could just about get away with making the faction 3 of the above kill teams, 2-3 HQs and 3 Blackstars if you made the blackstars good enough.  I'd largely be okay with that honestly, though it would certainly be preferable to get some variety in transport options.

 

I feel like the other option is to do something with the apparent focus we have on teleportation homers.  It seems like one option is to give each killteam a once per game ability to move at the speed of the bike by letting the bike move and then the unit port over to him.  

 

Funny enough, I'd actually be in favor of cutting our Vanguard/Term/Biker units out entirely.  Probably a bad idea overall, but honestly I think the whole faction could be the Kill Team option.  Just remove the 5 Vet min and say you need 5 models in the unit min period.  If that's 5 Bikes, cool.  That's kind of the joy of the faction that I feel the Index made good progress towards; they just need to go the rest of the way.

[Aothaine]

I totally understand the negative thoughts here but there are some pretty cool things involved here as well. It was not what you wanted but it more than you had. A few things went up in cost and some went down. The warlord trait is pretty thematic and pretty darn cool imho. I imagine when the Deathwatch codex drops there will be few generic warlord traits and strats that will apply to more enemies.

 

All-in-all I think Deathwatch are better off than they used to be. Don't forget you can still use the warlord traits and strats from the BRB.

 

Primaris being cheaper is great for Deathwatch as you can now use the vets as the elite troops they were meant to be and you have a cheaper troop unit. You have access to most of the Primaris line which is amazingly good. 

 

The teleport relic is awesome! Say you take a squad of Inceptors. Deep strike them in with a JP captain. Relic it up and bring that Vet squad from the back line to 9" away from your opponent to unleash hell and assault.

 

I hope Deathwatch get more with their codex. I'd like to believe they will. But as a place holder... this isn't so bad.

[Moostick]

Funny enough, I'd actually be in favor of cutting our Vanguard/Term/Biker units out entirely. Probably a bad idea overall, but honestly I think the whole faction could be the Kill Team option. Just remove the 5 Vet min and say you need 5 models in the unit min period. If that's 5 Bikes, cool. That's kind of the joy of the faction that I feel the Index made good progress towards; they just need to go the rest of the way.

This is something that I think would be a step in the right direction. Right now, outside of SIA, there really isn't anything special in our VV/Bike/Term units. I'd even say our bike and terms are worse for a high cost; bikes losing a gun for power weapon, and terms losing teleport homers without bikes.

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

Aothanie - I think the issue a lot of us have is that Primaris being cheaper replaces our army more than it fixes it. Deathwatch are the first army that I've bought and not felt like I've gotten my money's worth. 7th was a mess towards the end when they were released so it didn't bother me, but in 8th they've been one of if not the worst fraction. The models are cool and I'm not asking for them to be top tier rule wise, I just really feel like they decided they'd want to go to true scale and dumped out a bunch of stuff they knew would be obsolete just ahead of it. 

Edited November 30, 2017 by Black_Star

[sockwithaticket]

I totally understand the negative thoughts here but there are some pretty cool things involved here as well. It was not what you wanted but it more than you had. A few things went up in cost and some went down. The warlord trait is pretty thematic and pretty darn cool imho. I imagine when the Deathwatch codex drops there will be few generic warlord traits and strats that will apply to more enemies.

 

All-in-all I think Deathwatch are better off than they used to be. Don't forget you can still use the warlord traits and strats from the BRB.

 

Primaris being cheaper is great for Deathwatch as you can now use the vets as the elite troops they were meant to be and you have a cheaper troop unit. You have access to most of the Primaris line which is amazingly good. 

 

The teleport relic is awesome! Say you take a squad of Inceptors. Deep strike them in with a JP captain. Relic it up and bring that Vet squad from the back line to 9" away from your opponent to unleash hell and assault.

 

I hope Deathwatch get more with their codex. I'd like to believe they will. But as a place holder... this isn't so bad.

Primaris as they currently exist may as well be Black and Silver codex marines, there's nothing that makes them DW apart from the colour scheme.

 

DW as the spec ops marines are supposed to have flexible wargear load outs, a multiplicity of insertion methods and unique bits of kit. Primaris offer none of that.

 

So having access to them doesn't feel all that great.