Chapter Approved - Deathwatch Changes

[Thanatos31]

 

I totally understand the negative thoughts here but there are some pretty cool things involved here as well. It was not what you wanted but it more than you had. A few things went up in cost and some went down. The warlord trait is pretty thematic and pretty darn cool imho. I imagine when the Deathwatch codex drops there will be few generic warlord traits and strats that will apply to more enemies.

 

All-in-all I think Deathwatch are better off than they used to be. Don't forget you can still use the warlord traits and strats from the BRB.

 

Primaris being cheaper is great for Deathwatch as you can now use the vets as the elite troops they were meant to be and you have a cheaper troop unit. You have access to most of the Primaris line which is amazingly good. 

 

The teleport relic is awesome! Say you take a squad of Inceptors. Deep strike them in with a JP captain. Relic it up and bring that Vet squad from the back line to 9" away from your opponent to unleash hell and assault.

 

I hope Deathwatch get more with their codex. I'd like to believe they will. But as a place holder... this isn't so bad.

Primaris as they currently exist may as well be Black and Silver codex marines, there's nothing that makes them DW apart from the colour scheme.

 

DW as the spec ops marines are supposed to have flexible wargear load outs, a multiplicity of insertion methods and unique bits of kit. Primaris offer none of that.

 

So having access to them doesn't feel all that great.

 

thematically, fluff wise , rule of cool wise - absolutely agree and understand the frustration ( as well as the let downs with CA) but on the gaming side :

 

Primaris offer cheap wounds, decent weapons, more options to an overpriced army. and we get a few more options we hadn't had before CA. 

Edited December 1, 2017 by Thanatos31

[Aothaine]

All of your responses to me just solidify my opinion about Deathwatch being mainly used for narrative play only for the time being. I wouldn't worry too much though. GW is paying attention and while they might not have resolved Deathwatch's issues with CA, your codex will come out soon enough and hopefully be a bit better than last years codex.

[Moostick]

All of your responses to me just solidify my opinion about Deathwatch being mainly used for narrative play only for the time being. I wouldn't worry too much though. GW is paying attention and while they might not have resolved Deathwatch's issues with CA, your codex will come out soon enough and hopefully be a bit better than last years codex.

Haha, I'm sorry; when I read this, I imagine the terrible, inappropriately upbeat emails delivering bad news I get from HR, or the super loyal employee who tells everyone how the company really cares for us. I don't mean anything bad by this; lot to do with timing and it just made me chuckle.

 

I think the Codex will be the last chance for me. I won't get rid of my DW army if they bone us again, but will definitely start an entirely new army. Or just gave up playing, be a backseat commander and focus on collecting. We will see.

[spacewatch]

.... My local meta is Orcs and IG and if rumours are right Orcs will get very powerful strategem which allows them combine two units. This makes their melee mega killers Meganobz practically untouchable because they now can have as many meat shields as they need and they easily get stratagems to keep that combination all the time. I cannot figure out how to beat Orcs with the DW in the future. ...

 

Just downloaded CA and found out that this Boyz meat shielding Meganobz combination that I was afraid is not possible. On the other hand Orcs got very generous point reduction but ...there's some hope left to beat them in the future too. Melee surely is not an option (even with cheaper Storm Shields) but our Relic opens new tactical options we need to think innovatively. For example after shooting Meganobz transport just drop jump pack Captain with relic near, beam some nasty shooting unit including Termie (maybe Apothecary too) up, then unleash hell against Meganobz (or whatever one needs to wipe off-table) and next turn back to base with teleport homer.

Edited December 2, 2017 by spacewatch

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

I had a pretty interesting discussion at my game store about CA last night. It makes a lot more sense if you look at CA as response to what people felt the meta was in August-September. Scions nerfed (more expensive melta for bs 3+), Ynnari nerfed through the faq, conscripts killed, FW rebalanced, storm ravens/tl AC razorback nerfed, and primaris/deathguard boosted.  

 

Only a couple of index forces saw a lot of changes implying to me that they will be the last to be updated. Also maybe a plastic sicararn in the future (that tank got cheap and we may be do for another plastic HH wave.

 

I really think the main problem with CA is that GW didn't market it correctly the main selling points should have been the new missions, and the point changes to bring the existing codex back to earth. More so than fixing the old armies because there just isn't a lot of value there for the most part.   

[Polak]

So the only amazing thing out of CA for us is the relic. Now I've been pondering about Aggressors and their problem with mobility. Guess we could teleport in a nice 6 man Aggressor unit in with the beacon, and that would count as not moving for them? So that we can just fire twice? Sounds tasty, though the flamer option wouldn't work due to the 8" range sadly...

[Macabre Slanneshi Prince]

I'd find it hard to argue that it doesn't count as moving.

[shanewatts]

Using the relic on Aggressors is something I have been discussing with the TOs I know. A couple have said doesn't count as moving, others are unsure.

 

Seems like it would count even though it isn't worded that way. Needs an faq.

[Prot]

I had a pretty interesting discussion at my game store about CA last night. It makes a lot more sense if you look at CA as response to what people felt the meta was in August-September. Scions nerfed (more expensive melta for bs 3+), Ynnari nerfed through the faq, conscripts killed, FW rebalanced, storm ravens/tl AC razorback nerfed, and primaris/deathguard boosted.  

 

 

 

I kind of agree, but really how I looked at the changes from the moment some were being leaked was... that portion of the book should have been called "Playtest Approved".

 

The guys who playtest this stuff have a lot to go through, but some extremely obvious stuff was missed. As a result if you just go back in time and see what army won a tournament since 8th, it's nearly all nerfed now.

 

The truly bad news here: If you go back to the same time frame and see what never gets played in the same time frame, it really didn't get much help. Oddly enough AdMech did get help, but they were one of the few to have codexes that performed terribly in any competitive environment.

 

GW let the tournament environment finish beta-testing.

 

Thankfully there's more to the CA book which I'm looking very forward to (I love mission play)

 

 

 

I'd find it hard to argue that it doesn't count as moving.

 

 

Agreed! In every aspect of this form of dynamic movement, it always counts as movement. I remember when the Chaos codex first came out this was heavily debated until GW came out and said it's like a movement (to come out of what we commonly still refer to as reserves) and this included special -remove from table, place back on table- type powers.

 

I remember asking GW if it was then possible to 'deep strike' something, then move it. They said no, but in an FAQ it was confirmed that a special action like 'Warp time' would allow the unit to move after a 'deep strike' type move. 

 

Personally I'd say it counts as moving, until GW said otherwise or the power had a special circumstance clearly stated in the relic/description.

[Polak]

That's a shame, though the relic still helps getting the aggressors across the board without investing into a repulsor. Beside the turn the Aggressors disembark from an repulsor it counts as movement too.

 

Would the relic make the now cheaper Aggressors more viable, and would we stay with the standard loadout or go with flamers, despite not being able to shoot the turn they arrive?

[Moostick]

Rule book entry for deepstrike says any form of deepstriking (teleport, grav chute, etc.) counts as having moved in the movement phase, unless we argue it's not a deepstrike. Think it's a hard case to argue though.

 

I see the beacon more useful as a defensive relic. Get a unit too far in out to safety.

 

Edit: right, BA FC is now 38 points. Since they tend to be the same price for the factions regardless of carrier...this could be bad, haha.(i can't see them making it 45 points. Actually, it's GW. Oh please don't)

Edited December 3, 2017 by Moostick

[Prot]

That's a shame, though the relic still helps getting the aggressors across the board without investing into a repulsor. Beside the turn the Aggressors disembark from an repulsor it counts as movement too.

 

Would the relic make the now cheaper Aggressors more viable, and would we stay with the standard loadout or go with flamers, despite not being able to shoot the turn they arrive?

 

There's nothing wrong with that! Actually it works for any unit. I don't like the Repulsor, so this is instantly a way to circumvent the vehicle (Landraider is far superior imho). 

 

The fact is you can use this in any case where you don't feel like buying a Repulsor but want to insulate your Primaris (one squad) from enemy fire.... for me that might look more like a 'deep striking' Hellblaster squad. If the Watchmaster is in the mix, that's a potentially devastating move if timed right.

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

 

I had a pretty interesting discussion at my game store about CA last night. It makes a lot more sense if you look at CA as response to what people felt the meta was in August-September. Scions nerfed (more expensive melta for bs 3+), Ynnari nerfed through the faq, conscripts killed, FW rebalanced, storm ravens/tl AC razorback nerfed, and primaris/deathguard boosted.  

 

 

 

I kind of agree, but really how I looked at the changes from the moment some were being leaked was... that portion of the book should have been called "Playtest Approved".

 

The guys who playtest this stuff have a lot to go through, but some extremely obvious stuff was missed. As a result if you just go back in time and see what army won a tournament since 8th, it's nearly all nerfed now.

 

The truly bad news here: If you go back to the same time frame and see what never gets played in the same time frame, it really didn't get much help. Oddly enough AdMech did get help, but they were one of the few to have codexes that performed terribly in any competitive environment.

 

GW let the tournament environment finish beta-testing.

 

Thankfully there's more to the CA book which I'm looking very forward to (I love mission play)

 

 

Yeah I'd agree with that, I guess I see it more as progress than anything. Compared to earlier editions at least there seems to be movement.

 

The missions seem to be great so far, we mainly play maelstrom and they feel different but not needlessly complicated. 

[Prot]

Same here. We use Maelstrom or tournament type scenarios that require a lot of movement.

 

I hate to say it but I could see a deepstrike pod, Watchmaster, and the relic pulling in a full squad of Helblasters deep in the zone. The only catch is the Apothecary. I can’t fit him in this scenario but the rest of the Primaris got reductions. Even the Inceptors might work here.

 

The funny thing is this is basically a variant of my 7th Edition list.

[shanewatts]

So with the drop of CA, kill teams look pretty bad.

 

Play tested an army last night that was DW with UM allies. Every DW squad was primaris (Inceptors and Aggressors.) It went fairly well, but I am pretty depressed about kill teams.

 

By the way, 5 Hellblasters may have more wounds, but a 3 man Inceptor squad with plasma has more shots and doesn't need a transport, for 12pts more.

Edited December 4, 2017 by shanewatts

[Macabre Slanneshi Prince]

At that point you might as well just use them as Ultramarines painted black; Primaris don't really get any particular bonus for being Deathwatch. I guess Inceptors don't really get a bonus from being Ultras either though.

[Aothaine]

 

All of your responses to me just solidify my opinion about Deathwatch being mainly used for narrative play only for the time being. I wouldn't worry too much though. GW is paying attention and while they might not have resolved Deathwatch's issues with CA, your codex will come out soon enough and hopefully be a bit better than last years codex.

Haha, I'm sorry; when I read this, I imagine the terrible, inappropriately upbeat emails delivering bad news I get from HR, or the super loyal employee who tells everyone how the company really cares for us. I don't mean anything bad by this; lot to do with timing and it just made me chuckle.

 

I think the Codex will be the last chance for me. I won't get rid of my DW army if they bone us again, but will definitely start an entirely new army. Or just gave up playing, be a backseat commander and focus on collecting. We will see.

 

 

 

I feel ya. I've always had an upbeat tempo to things. A good, recent, example of how GW is improving things is the Blood Angel codex though. It is really good. But I also play a lot of LoL so I have to remain positive in the storm to try and prevent people from quitting or feeding or giving up. Just a lot of experiencing trying to bolster morale in an online setting I suppose. 

 

I do not work for GW. But I love their dice! ^_^

[shanewatts]

At that point you might as well just use them as Ultramarines painted black; Primaris don't really get any particular bonus for being Deathwatch. I guess Inceptors don't really get a bonus from being Ultras either though.

You are absolutely correct, however still ranked in ITC as Deathwatch and I will continue to play em at least in that arena.

[LunarSol]

One thing I'll say is that to some degree I actually like DW a bit more in theory as a second detachment instead of its own army.  Similar to the way that I like how well Grey Knights work both mechanically in a supreme command.  The issue is; there's not really a proper Deathwatch detachment right now.  Something that was 2 HQ - 1 Troop - 1 Flyer that basically said "Take Kill Team Cassius for +X CP" would make a lot more sense.

 

The other random thought I had as far as fixing Kill Teams is just what if Vets were T5?  Pretty simple fluffy change that shores up their big weakness without just giving them a second wound.  Also helps facilitate adding other model types (and not penalizing bikes) to the unit, which I'll continue to demand is the one design requirement to make DW make sense.

[LunarSol]

The truly bad news here: If you go back to the same time frame and see what never gets played in the same time frame, it really didn't get much help. Oddly enough AdMech did get help, but they were one of the few to have codexes that performed terribly in any competitive environment.

 

Third thought of the day:

 

In fairness; the biggest challenge in a new edition of a game is gauging the correct power level of the tournament environment.  It's very easy to see what's over the top but its very hard to tell if something isn't getting taken because it needs help or because one of those things on top is keeping it down.  Generally when you take a wide swing at anything above the curve like we're seeing in CA; you need to wait a few months and see if what lied below was more diverse than what you removed.

 

Our biggest buff in CA is just that the top end got brought down closer to our level.  The buffs to underplayed stuff (namely primaris) ended up hurting the viability of our unique options more than a lack of buffs to them did.

[Moostick]

One thing I'll say is that to some degree I actually like DW a bit more in theory as a second detachment instead of its own army.  Similar to the way that I like how well Grey Knights work both mechanically in a supreme command.  The issue is; there's not really a proper Deathwatch detachment right now.  Something that was 2 HQ - 1 Troop - 1 Flyer that basically said "Take Kill Team Cassius for +X CP" would make a lot more sense.

 

The other random thought I had as far as fixing Kill Teams is just what if Vets were T5?  Pretty simple fluffy change that shores up their big weakness without just giving them a second wound.  Also helps facilitate adding other model types (and not penalizing bikes) to the unit, which I'll continue to demand is the one design requirement to make DW make sense.

 

 

Right now, I've folded and planning a BA/DW army. I'm swapping all my assault units to BA, and using DW as a gunline with WM for a cheap chapter master reroll. But going through our available options...everything turns to FW models. Outside of WM, we really don't have any units worth taking over others, and vehicles don't benefit from CT anyways.

 

Vets definitely need a huge change to make them even comparable to Primaris. To make changes, they need to view DW Vets as a completely separate entity from SM. However, I don't think they'd be willing to put in the effort to do that; the furthest I think they'd be willing to go is points changes.

 

But how much of a reduction makes them comparable to Primaris? I'm starting to doubt even 16 pts, all in, makes them comparable. ObSec is less effective with our MSU, and even if we assume they'll be 16 pts each, they can't compare with the likes of Hellblasters and Inceptors. Long range fire teams would be their best use...but our selection in that regard is rather limited currently.

[Rayanne979]

Probably completly OT, but here it goes...

 

I've been reading through this topic and have to conclude that the DW have awesome fluff but awfull rules.

and it seems that the rules are getting worse and worse.

 

I've been planning of painting a DW army since day 1, but i think i'll just create a DIY chapter called Deathwatch, with the DW paintscheme and chapter tactics which work for my playstyle.

 

It will not be a real deatchwatch army  , but it will be a fun to play army.

 

btw. i never play to win. I play for fun, but i do like a remote chance at winning.

 

just my 2cts, sorry

[spacewatch]

This is exactly what I've been thinking today. It's clear that relative effectivenes of our army has decreased to those who got "more" but I'm not too worried about that because our codex is coming. What I'm worried about is that everyting becomes 'flat'. Everybody's talking about Primaris beeing better at everything our Vets can do. Same applies to our Relic Beacon Angelis; feels like its meant to move Hellblasters only. Primaris here primaris there... no, Primaris are not spirit and soul of Deathwatch, Veterans are. It's the trust that you can and will do your duty at all costs and trust that everybody does the same - or dies. That's the spirit and that's the whole point of the Deathwatch. Look at your army or look at awesome pictures people have posted here in this forum and tell me what you see ...faceless units using some fancy high AP works-everywhere-guns or ...skill, ...dedication, ...courage, ...character. Yes, I was sure you all see the same ...Veterans. Rules may change but spirit will never fade because we are the Deathwatch.

 

Probably completly OT, but here it goes...

 

....

 

It will not be a real deatchwatch army  , but it will be a fun to play army.

 

That's the whole point, brother  

[Moostick]

GW has two choices.

 

1) Revamp entire rule set for DW. (for KTs setup, abilities, etc.)

2) Reduce points. (easy way out)

 

The more I think about DW, the more I believe that a simple points reduction won't fix anything about the army. Even at 16 pts a Vet, it won't do much to fix our inherent issues. Unfortunately, with how GW seems to want to streamline everything in 8th, I doubt they'll go out of their way and spare effort to think up new unique rules for the faction. They will likely just opt for a small reduction here and there, and call it a day.

[spacewatch]

I agree. If costs would go down say 2-3pts/Vet then we could take something like one more SIA Vet unit or three Bikers or SIA Vanguards or TAC-Razorback. Or we could equip existing Vets with better tools so 3 frag cannons or 6-8 (combi)-plasmas or Termie plus some Storm Shields. Yes that would help but that alone wouldn't give the boost we desperately need. So I agree that we need new or better rules too.

 

Let's speculate a bit what can we expect regarding new rules. If we look at C:SM there's not too many abilities and chapter tactics per Chapter because most tactics are now situational Strategems. Then there's Relics some of which are Chapter specific and finally there's also Warlord traits and Psyker Diciplines. Ok, we already have army wide No Fear and SIA abilities and Kill-Team abilities so how much more we can expect to get? I hope we get something new because some abilities similar to our Kill-Team abilities seem to be available to some Space Marines as Strategems. CA gave us our first Strategems and it's easy to say that we will get more later. Yes, Strategems can give good boost if situation is right, I have seen that in practice when I played against C:SM/Ultramarines. However, problem with Strategems is that we don't have too many Command Points to use them, especially if you're used to re-roll damage rolls. So Strategems, used just once or twice during the game, probably won't give us the boost we need as an army imo.

 

So, just like you say, new or better ruleset is the thing we need. Unfortunately I too believe that it's not going to happen. On the other hand we will certainly get at least some improvements to our army and now that I have read what is published about DA and BA codexes in last couple of days makes me a bit optimistic regarding our own codex too. Time will tell.

Edited December 7, 2017 by spacewatch