Blood Angels and Death Stars

[Aothaine]

I know our codex is releasing soon but I was curious about your opinions regarding a Blood Angel army focusing on a Death Star.

 

Sanguinary Guard are Pretty damned amazing. They are almost like melee Primaris with jump packs. So what I was thinking is you could have a sort of gunline force on the back line with Intercessors supported with Priests. Then drop a group of units like this in your opponent's back line.

 

The Sanguinor

Librarian w/ Jump Pack

Priest w/ Jump Pack & Power Fist

Sanguinary Guard (10-man) - Encarmine Sword x3, Encarmine Axe x2, Power Fist x5

 

This grouping comes in under 900 points and should be horrifying to fight against. The guard being the unit you're mainly buffing here. Sanguinor is going to give the Guard and everyone in this group +1 attack. The librarian will be giving the guard another +1 attack and a 4+ invlun. The priest giving them +1 str and healing wounds. I'm pretty sure this group could ruin most back lines. 

 

While this is happening you can have 6-10 intercessor 5-man squads roaming around the board securing objectives. Alternatively you can take 5-man tactical squads with lascannons and some other support types. 

 

The Death Star is all on jump packs so they should be able to keep up with the opponent if they move away. It should be able to soak fire pretty well. You could even take a supreme command detachment and fill it out with Sanguinary Priests with Jump packs. 

 

So lets think about this.. .the Death Star about if five drops. So we need to find a way to increase our drops so we can drop even more with the star. 

 

5-man Tactical Squad with Lascannon is 90 points. Take these to fill up your back line. They are Obsec, have a lascannon that can hit on 4+ after moving. 

 

This allows you to take the following:

 

1st Battalion - 1411

 

HQ - The Sanguinor - 170

HQ - Sanguinary Priest w/ Jump Pack & Power Fist - 106

HQ - Librarian w/ Jump Pack & Force Sword - 128

 

ELITE - Sanguinary Guard (Encarmine Sword x5, Encarmine Axe x2, Power Fist x3) - 467

 

TROOP - Tactical Squad ( Bolter x4 & Lascannon) - 90

TROOP - Tactical Squad ( Bolter x4 & Lascannon) - 90

TROOP - Tactical Squad ( Bolter x4 & Lascannon) - 90

TROOP - Tactical Squad ( Bolter x4 & Lascannon) - 90

TROOP - Tactical Squad ( Bolter x4 & Lascannon) - 90

TROOP - Tactical Squad ( Bolter x4 & Lascannon) - 90

 

 

2nd Battalion - 588

 

HQ - Sanguinary Priest w/ Jump Pack & Power Fist - 106

HQ - Sanguinary Priest w/ Jump Pack & Power Fist - 106

HQ - Sanguinary Priest w/ Jump Pack & Power Fist - 106

 

TROOP - Tactical Squad ( Bolter x4 & Lascannon) - 90

TROOP - Tactical Squad ( Bolter x4 & Lascannon) - 90

TROOP - Tactical Squad ( Bolter x4 & Lascannon) - 90

 

This is 1999 points in total. You have 9 tactical squads to drop down initially allowing you to drop all six HQ and the Guard on Turn one. The four priests are there to heal wounds and bring back the sanguinary guard. It may seem over-kill but if you are building a death star I think you need to do it right. 

 

I'm not even sure you would need to charge in first turn with this. You can play the character shenanigans game as well and use the guard to protect your character bubble. But with all the buffs the Guard should be able to crush anything they assault.

 

 

Anyway... What do you think?

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Crimson Ghost IX]

Quick answer: Neat Idea, let's see what the codex says about the units. I hope the SG is good and combines well with say Dante etc.

 

Longer Answer:

I would not run more than 2 power fists on the SG themelves probably myself.

I would consider spending that savings on Plasma Pistols or getting some.

I would probably split the 10 man into 2x5 especially with that many priests because of drop footprint especially, but also overkill etc.

 

No need for more than like 2-3 Sanguinary Priests probably.

I like Captains, Ancients, etc also.

 

I think 7th ed Death Star this is not, but still a decent idea to try if you have most of the models and wanna see what happens.

Some forward board control units (aka scouts) would help you to have a viable LZ perhaps.

We will have to see, but I expect its too many eggs in one basket and suffers from it's own high points cost too much I am thinking.

Being thrown over the fence so to speak... Many a gunline will most likely eat its face after it drops so that also complicates things.

The question becomes to my mind is did their distraction / sacrifice buy the rest of your army time to do their thing and win.

Work harder on the rest of the force, methinks there are too many tacticals. Get some more fast movers to support that gigantic deepstrike better.

 

I think it is flashy and might have some good games but overall will disappoint more often than not currently.

Let's see what the codex does for things and revisit in 30 days =)

[Cleon]

Personally I really don't like it, far too repetitive in the clone squads for my liking and I think you'd find the Sang guard shot off the board after their first charge when the enemy disengage and shoot you with everything else in their army.

 

Ditch the second detachment and add small assault marine squads into the main formation and you can at least try to tie up nearby units as well to stop them from opening up on the exposed guard.

[Frater Cornelius]

I believe it lacks the main quality of the death stars of yore. Durability. You had tanky characters, better and more reliable saves and psychic powers weren't as easily stopped.

 

For example, Nids, Eldar, Orks and Chaos will Smite the unit down. Conscripts, Scouts and similar infiltrating units will deny you a good deep strike, but staying on the board is too risky.

 

And then there are the multi-damage weapons like Plasmas, Dark Reaper weapons, auto-cannons and so forth. Even with a 2+/4++ you will lose more than you can recover per turn.

 

This is simply not the age of Death Stars. I have learned the hard way that putting too many points into a threat you can't adequately protect will end in tears and a shattered dream. Having said that, there is merit to your idea in a different list.

 

I'd probably reduce the points you invest into the unit. The Sanguinor is great, but he can be used elsewhere if SG are not required in any particular engagement in a game. If you bring other units, even if it just Intercessors, you can change tactics on the fly.

So how about a Vanguard Detachment with 5 SG, maybe even a SG Ancient, a Libby, Sanguinor and whatever other Elite you choose. Then fill out a Battalion, bring another Libby and a Captain to support other parts of the army with re-rolls.

 

In short, decentralize the list and add flexibility. SG are not tough enough to survive long of they are the only target.

[Panzer]

Yeah real Deathstars should be durable and basically unstoppable. Such a thing doesn't really exist anymore. At least not like it used to be. Compared to Deathstars Sanguinary Guard always were more of a glass cannon...and for those a MSU approach is usually better.

 

Not really a fan of your list and I don't think I would have many problems playing against it to be honest.

[swordofmandulis]

I love the idea, and have tried it in a number of forms, it's definitely a mistake to pile too many buffs into one unit, like the others have said they will get targeted down early, also if you have 3 or 4 units that need to make the charge some will likely fail, and of its a charge of any reasonable distance eg turn 1 then they are out of range and potentially leaves your characters open to being shot at. I prefer to have a number of threats and buff each one a bit. You can be a bit sneaky with the Sanguinary guard and double your buffs using the heirs of azkaellon rule, I tend to make the Sanguinor my warlord and run him with the guard, that way they get +1 attack and re rolls. You can also make the Sanguinary Guard Ancient your warlord for re roll hits and re roll 1's to wound in the fight phase. This is a nice cheap way of doing it. If you are facing marines then the priests +1 Strength is well worth having and taking a load of swords. Just my thoughts.

[Brother Crimson]

The 10 sang guard will go down in one turn if the enemy concentrate fire. Then you have 420 pts of priest sitting back...

 

For same points you could run 10 more sang guard if you like, it’s a lot harder to put down 20 than 10.

 

One priest is still a good buff for +1 str and healing but 4 is quite overkill.

 

If you absolutely want nartheciums sang novitiae with jp are only 60 ea.

[Frater Cornelius]

The issue is that you can only buff one with the 4++.

[Karhedron]

The issue is that you can only buff one with the 4++.

I think that the 4++ is not going to be as big a buff as you hope. It will only kick in vs AP-3 weapons or above. If someone is shooting Lascannons and overcharged plasma at the SG, the difference between the 5+ save they would get anyway and a 4++ is not a huge boost to their survivabilty. I am not saying it is not worthwhile but you may be overestimating the difference a 16.67% boost in survivability will make.

 

Dark Reapers and other AP-2 multi-damage weaponry won't be affected in the slightest and will still take a heavy toll.

[Charlo]

When making a Deathstar, I think the 2W the SG have are actually not in their favor.

 

Your big nasty unit will attract all the big ticket firepower and you lose the advantage against anything of 2D or more.

[Karhedron]

Sanguinary Guard really need to be in close combat to be effective (my entry for the 2017 understatement of the year competition). Their equipment is CC geared and multi-wound CC wargear is less common than shooting.

 

The problem is keeping them alive long enough to get there. Jump Packs provide mobility but only up to a point. MSU can sometimes use terrain to hide out of LOS but this is harder to do with one big blob. Deep Striking is risky as you only have a 28% chance to pull off that charge and Lemartes doesn't help here. A large SG unit is also more vulnerable to Battleshock.

 

SG badly need some love as they currently just provide expensive targets for your opponent's best weapons. If you do want to run them, I think MSU is the way to go rather than investing a lot trying to make a Death Star. Remember that a 5-man squad that does get to charge will probably do a lot of damage to most infantry units (although there are some targets that they are not really cut out to handle).

 

Hopefully SG will get some love in the new Codex. The changes made to Eldar (who have a similar fast-elite playstyle to BAs) gives me cautious hope that we may get some love for our golden boys.

[Arkaniss]

I don't think anyone has mentioned that a unit can only be a target of narthecium once per turn. So multiple Sanguinary Priests is OTT barring redundancy.

 

As other people have said consider splitting the Sanguinary Guard. I've had success with 2 5-man squads each backed up by a Priest running with the Sanguinor as Warlord. Again as already mentioned you'll find their 2 wounds sometimes a hindrance as you will be fighting a losing battle attempting to heal each turn against the firepower directed at them. That said, bringing an expensive Sanguinary Guard model back from the dead is a neat trick and sure to annoy any opponent - you just have to weather the storm, and splitting them into multiple squads will help a bit there.

 

Having a bunch of Sanguinary Guard hit the table will never fail to be an impressive sight though, so I still say go for it :tu:

[9x19 Parabellum]

Sanguinary Guard really need to be in close combat to be effective (my entry for the 2017 understatement of the year competition).

 

I'm just imagining John Madden saying this while demonstrating various tactical plays via the telestrator.

 

"now, now, now...you see....in order to kill things in close combat...the sanguinary guard...halfta get into close combat, you see"

[Aothaine]

Fair points all of them. Lets say you change up a bit though. Don't deploy them first turn. The list is running 45 tactical marines spread over 9 units with 9 lascannons in them. So, lets say the SG drop turn 2 or turn three after your tacticals have done what they could then you drop down the sang guard to clean up. I understand completely that dropping them turn one and expecting charges is a dangerous idea. But dropping them in Turn 2 or 3 allows your tacticals some time to grind up the more dangerous units to the SG. I'm not saying it will be easy but taking out 45 wounds spread over nine different units in one turn is going to be difficult with an all-comers list.

 

I honestly feel this list has more bite to it than most people think. Got to think outside the box. You don't need everything on the table turn one when your opponent's firepower is strongest. Maybe drop a priest or two with the tacticals to work on making them a bit more resilient as well. Lots of options.

 

I am also not stating that this is a top tier list either. But I think it is a bit stronger than the quick dismissal I'm seeing here. ^_^ Just my opinion though.

[Brother Crimson]

Fair points all of them. Lets say you change up a bit though. Don't deploy them first turn. The list is running 45 tactical marines spread over 9 units with 9 lascannons in them. So, lets say the SG drop turn 2 or turn three after your tacticals have done what they could then you drop down the sang guard to clean up. I understand completely that dropping them turn one and expecting charges is a dangerous idea. But dropping them in Turn 2 or 3 allows your tacticals some time to grind up the more dangerous units to the SG. I'm not saying it will be easy but taking out 45 wounds spread over nine different units in one turn is going to be difficult with an all-comers list.

 

I honestly feel this list has more bite to it than most people think. Got to think outside the box. You don't need everything on the table turn one when your opponent's firepower is strongest. Maybe drop a priest or two with the tacticals to work on making them a bit more resilient as well. Lots of options.

 

I am also not stating that this is a top tier list either. But I think it is a bit stronger than the quick dismissal I'm seeing here. Just my opinion though.

 

 

Deep striking later on can be useful and I use terminators pretty much the way you describe. Kill the plasmas if possible, then DS the terminators. Your first batallion is ok with sanguinor priest and librairian. The second batallion HQ part is too redundant. 

 

The sanguinary priest bonus to str does not stack and you cant heal the same unit twice in the same turn. As you only need 2 HQ per batallion I would definitly drop 2 priests and get something else, ideally something anti-swarm  to balance the list. Sang Guard and lascannon are good versus tanks and elites, you need to cover them with something that has high volume of fire.

 

A few suggestions:  Heavy bolter devastators in a razorback, company veterans with stormbolters, Baal predators (or the boring Twin assault cannon Razor spam)

[Karhedron]

A few suggestions:  Heavy bolter devastators in a razorback, company veterans with stormbolters, Baal predators (or the boring Twin assault cannon Razor spam)

If you want a short-ranged dakka Dev squad, look at Grav Cannons instead. They are actually as effective as Lascannons vs vehicles and better than HBs vs infantry. Of course they have much shorter range but if you are planning to put them in a Transport, that fixes that problem for you.

[Aothaine]

 

Deep striking later on can be useful and I use terminators pretty much the way you describe. Kill the plasmas if possible, then DS the terminators. Your first batallion is ok with sanguinor priest and librairian. The second batallion HQ part is too redundant. 

 

The sanguinary priest bonus to str does not stack and you cant heal the same unit twice in the same turn. As you only need 2 HQ per batallion I would definitly drop 2 priests and get something else, ideally something anti-swarm  to balance the list. Sang Guard and lascannon are good versus tanks and elites, you need to cover them with something that has high volume of fire.

 

A few suggestions:  Heavy bolter devastators in a razorback, company veterans with stormbolters, Baal predators (or the boring Twin assault cannon Razor spam)

 

 

Ahhh good point. I thought you could heal a unit more than once with different priests. I didn't read the rule all the way through. :p Yeah dropping the extra priests would be something to do then.

 

Getting some company vets with stormbolters or a dakka Baal might be a good option as well. Dropping the number of Tacticals is dangerous with this list though. But I guess since you can't revive more than once it won't work as I thought anyway.

 

 

 

If you want a short-ranged dakka Dev squad, look at Grav Cannons instead. They are actually as effective as Lascannons vs vehicles and better than HBs vs infantry. Of course they have much shorter range but if you are planning to put them in a Transport, that fixes that problem for you.

 

 

 

Grav Cannons are indeed a good alternative option. A bit shorter range than I would like on the tacticals. But adding a Dev squad with them in it might be the ticket here.

[Brother Crimson]

Grav cannon is the most versatile heavy weapon but also the most expensive.

In this particular list I think lascannon and sang guard covers well against most vehicle. What will be problematic is swarm list like guard, tyranid and orks. These army archetypes usually have a lot of t3/t4 models with “bad” saves. In this case the heavy Bolter is actually better because it’s 18 pts cheaper.

[tychobi]

Fun but not competitive.  Morticon will wipe the "deathstar" alone.  No real staying power.  After the golden guys get blown away you are stuck slogging for objectives with 5 man SM squads.  8th is far too deadly for deathstar tactics.  Also buff bubbles are really bad for melee and this seems to be a bubble play.

[Xenith]

Fun but not competitive. Morticon will wipe the "deathstar" alone. No real staying power. After the golden guys get blown away you are stuck slogging for objectives with 5 man SM squads. 8th is far too deadly for deathstar tactics. Also buff bubbles are really bad for melee and this seems to be a bubble play.

I know Morticon's good, but is he *that* good?

 

Kind of glad of your opinion. I haven't played a game of 8th yet, but anything anti death star is welcome.

[tychobi]

 

Fun but not competitive. Morticon will wipe the "deathstar" alone. No real staying power. After the golden guys get blown away you are stuck slogging for objectives with 5 man SM squads. 8th is far too deadly for deathstar tactics. Also buff bubbles are really bad for melee and this seems to be a bubble play.

I know Morticon's good, but is he *that* good?

 

Kind of glad of your opinion. I haven't played a game of 8th yet, but anything anti death star is welcome.

 

I would not say it is gone completely but it is heavily modified.  Magnus/Morticon can wreck armies solo,  and bobby G surrounded by stuff makes for a cheesy kill fest like never before, but gone are the invisibility shenanigans and 2++ saves that make for real death stars.  Today the death stars come with a little hatch at the end of a trench that accepts proton torpedoes and other assorted anti tank weaponry and go boom quite often in a 6 round game.  The real problem was powerful units that did not die. 

 

Is Morticon that good?  Well kinda. He can kill anything he touches in one round.  He can also get  blown away in a single round of shooting.  He is a powerful model, a true beat stick, I might be wrong but I believe he is the most destructive melee model in 40k at the moment. If you feed him your good stuff you will get murdered.  If you tie him up not doing much and or blast him with heavy firepower he may be a big points sink.  A good player will be crafty and try and sneak him up in cover or wait for an important counter charge.  To beat powerful units one must never allow them to do what they do best.  

[Frater Cornelius]

Killing power has gone up, survivability has gone down. Invisibility and Endurance would right at home this edition. Now stuff just dies so quickly that horde is the way to go.

[Panzer]

I don't think I can agree. I find infantry durability has gone up compared to 7th edition AP2-3 spam which straightout ignored armor. The only thing that would make units less survivable is that it's way easier to draw LoS with the current rules and that you can't put in a character to tank all the shots with his face. Not sad about the later being gone tho.

It feels like some people actually think Marines were durable in 7th. They weren't. They got deleted pretty quickly by anything that was worth playing without a character in it or invulnerable saves/FnP.

[Are Verlo]

Mortarion is the DG primarch. Who is morticon ;-p

[Lord_Caerolion]

The ban-hammer of the Bolter & Chainsword mod team is feared even upon the table-top.