Shooting a unit of models partially in range

[Prot]

So I’ve heard mixed answers on this:

 

A 24” weapon causes 5 wounds total to a 5 man unit which had 1 model at 24” and 4 models at 25”.

 

If the casualties are removed from the rear, there is no issue, and all 5 would die. (We know casualties can be taken from anywhere in the unit by the owning player).

 

If the first casualty is taken from the front, what happens to the other 4 wounds?

 

I know from cover rules that if the first models removed leave the rest of the squad wholly in cover than the rest of the squad gets a cover save. This tells me that adjustments can be made during the saving process, but this is a bit different. Any ideas?

[Commander Dawnstar]

I'm not going to claim to be an authority on the rules (I haven't played nearly enough 8th for that) but the Allocate Wounds section under the Shooting Phase states that a model neither has to be in range or visible to the attacking unit in order to have a wound allocated to it.

[Ciler]

They carry on. Range is only checked when choosing the target unit.

[Todosi]

Ciler has it right.  Range is checked once, before any attacks are rolled and does not change until that unit is done firing.

[Varyk]

Ah, very interesting stuff. I'd missed that you have to declare which direction all of the shots are going in before resolving any. That makes life easy. Much obliged!

[Prot]

Thanks guys. Makes sense and I think my own confusion on the matter came from having previous editions in my head.

[Gentlemanloser]

There's an older OR thread on this, just making you aware of the arguement with squads with multiple weapons with different ranges.

 

And only checking range once. It's a grey area and hopefully never pops up in your games!

[Claws and Effect]

The checking range once shouldn't be a gray area.

 

You declare all shooting at once and check range then. Any weapons in range can shoot. Pretty cut and dried.

[Gentlemanloser]

Not going to rehash old thread.

 

But the issue is if you only check range once, take a unit with a 48" weapon and 12" weapon, can shoot the 12" weapon at a squad 48" away because they are in range.

 

You have to do things like skip back and forth through the shooting phasses to get round this.

 

It really requires clarifying from GW.

Edited November 20, 2017 by Gentlemanloser

[TheWolfLord]

Not going to rehash old thread.

But the issue is if you only check range once, take a unit with a 48" weapon and 12" weapon, can shoot the 12" weapon at a squad 48" away because they are in range.

You have to do things like skip back and forth through the shooting phasses to get round this.

It really requires clarifying from GW.

You check range for each weapon as a unit at step 2, once you start the process of rolling dice you are locked into the repeating cycle of step 4 and resolving attacks.

 

If a weapon was in range at step 2 it can be resolved at step 4. There is no chance of a 12" Melta being able to shoot 48".

[Gentlemanloser]

Step 2 you measure range with the 48" weapon then move directly to step 3 allowing you to shoot all your weapons.

 

As said this has already been discussed and i don't think it's worth opening up again.

 

Only mentioned it as is related to this topic and is helpful to be aware of issue if you ever face it in game.

[Claws and Effect]

Not going to rehash old thread.

 

But the issue is if you only check range once, take a unit with a 48" weapon and 12" weapon, can shoot the 12" weapon at a squad 48" away because they are in range.

 

You have to do things like skip back and forth through the shooting phasses to get round this.

 

It really requires clarifying from GW.

It doesn't require clarification. It requires the player to use a little common sense.

 

If a weapon in the unit does not have the range to fire a given target, then it cannot shoot at it. The fact that another weapon in the unit can has nothing to do with that.

[Interrogator-Chaplain Ezra]

Step 2 you measure range with the 48" weapon then move directly to step 3 allowing you to shoot all your weapons.

 

As said this has already been discussed and i don't think it's worth opening up again.

 

Only mentioned it as is related to this topic and is helpful to be aware of issue if you ever face it in game.

Hogwash.

 

 

In order to target an enemy unit,

a model from that unit must be within

the Range of the weapon being used (as

listed on its profile) and be visible to the

shooting model.

A missile launcher doesn't extend the range of a meltagun simply because the meltagun itself must be within its own limited range to actually fire. If the target unit is too far away from the meltagun it simply isn't allowed to target the target unit.

[Gentlemanloser]

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/339887-help-with-discussion-about-targets-and-weapon-ranges/?do=findComment&comment=4900171

[TheWolfLord]

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/339887-help-with-discussion-about-targets-and-weapon-ranges/?do=findComment&comment=4900171

And you weren't agreed with there either.

 

The part you are focusing on doesn't say you measure range once for the unit.

 

It says:

 

"Having chosen a shooting unit, you must pick the target unit, or units, for the attacks. In order to target an enemy unit, a model from that unit must be within the Range of the weapon being used (as listed on its profile) and be visible to the shooting model."

 

That rule is nothing to do with judging whether the weapons of a unit are in range. It's very simply the check to see if you can legally target an enemy unit.

 

I want to declare a particular enemy unit as a shooting target. Do I have a single model that can see the enemy unit and does that model have a weapon in range? If so I can legally declare that enemy unit as the target of some or all of my units shooting.

 

If doesn't allow all weapons in the unit to suddenly shoot further than the permitted range.

 

When the actual check for range occurs isn't explicitly made clear in the rules but I suppose that's because they felt nobody would ever try and say a Melta could shoot 48", how wrong they were ;).

 

However, step 3 is the step where you must declare which weapon each model in the unit is using and which unit that weapon is targeting. It is at this step that final range measurement must occur for each weapon, it's the only point in the shooting phase you choose which weapons are being fired and where. Of course you can measure range at any time but you once a dice is rolled any measuring can have no impact on the resolution of the shooting attacks.

Edited November 20, 2017 by TheWolfLord

[Gentlemanloser]

It's not me. I've had this arguement dropped on me twice now.

 

Supposidly is spoken about on some 40k stream somewhere. /shrug

 

Again i still don't agree with it but the RAW def isn't clear.

 

Was just making Prot aware this can crop up in game. Becuase it has for me.

[TheWolfLord]

It is clear though. Step 2 is not when you measure unit range, it's purely for declaring a target unit.

 

Step 3 is when you lock in your targets for each weapon.

 

There isn't a formal 'this is when you measure range' because distances can be measured at any time during steps 1-3 but once you reach step 4 your targets are set in stone, you can still measure range but it has no impact on the remaining part of the shooting phase.

 

We know that range is how far a weapon can fire so without a rule that says otherwise range doesn't change. We know casualties cannot take a unit out of range of already declared weapons so there's no need to remeasure in step 4.

 

You can measure range to your hearts content in step 4 but it's ultimately pointless.

[Gentlemanloser]

Really don't want to get into this again.

 

But step 2 is the only place where range is referenced in terms of what units you can shoot.

 

We might all agree on the RAI, but the RAW is lacking and less than robust.

[Interrogator-Chaplain Ezra]

But step 2 is the only place where range is referenced in terms of what units you can shoot.

Yes, and that very explicitly calls out that in order to use a specific weapon the target unit must have models within range of *that* weapon. A meltagun doesn't magically double its range because of the presence of boltguns, because a model firing a meltagun *must* have at least one model in the target unit within range of the meltagun.

 

RAW is clear as day, no matter how much people might want to muddy the waters.

Edited November 20, 2017 by Interrogator-Chaplain Ezra

[Eddie Orlock]

... the target unit must have models within range of *that* weapon. ...

It's probably more technically correct to say something like '*that* weapon profile' lest we get into some hinkyness around combi-weapons and whether or not they comprise one weapon or more than one weapon.

 

^It's the combi-weapons where this really gets technical, not the casual flamer in the tactical squad.

[Interrogator-Chaplain Ezra]

 

... the target unit must have models within range of *that* weapon. ...

It's probably more technically correct to say something like '*that* weapon profile' lest we get into some hinkyness around combi-weapons and whether or not they comprise one weapon or more than one weapon.

 

^It's the combi-weapons where this really gets technical, not the casual flamer in the tactical squad.

 

If you fire the melta weapon on a combi-melta, you're still firing the melta, and are bound by the profile it uses, which isn't that of the boltgun part, so I don't see the need to split hairs like that.

[Toasterfree]

yeah it doesn't matter what weapon you are firing, from where or who. you will still perform all operations to make sure that its in range to fire. theres no hinkyness here or wiggle.

[Eddie Orlock]

... there[']s no hinkyness here or wiggle.

How many different units can a sergeant with a combi-melta shoot? One or two?

 

If you consider it as one weapon with two profiles it can only shoot one target.

 

If you consider it as two separate weapons it may be able to engage two targets.

 

This is rather tangential to the question of if a weapon is in range but formal readings of the rules lead to odd results at times. We all know what we want to rules to be, the trick is to get there without either making unjustified assumptions or breaking something else in the game in the process.

[Claws and Effect]

Pretty sure it actually states that both parts of a combi weapon ha e to fire at the same unit.

[Interrogator-Chaplain Ezra]

A combi-weapon is, per the wording on combi-weapons, just that. *A* weapon. It just happens to have 2 available profiles. "When attacking with this weapon, choose one or both of the profiles below." And individual weapons can't split fire. So a bolter-flamer can fire as a bolter, a flamer, or both, but it is and remains a single weapon that has to fire both at the same target.

 

Again, this is clearly laid out in the text (in this case the profile of the individual combi-weapons).