Astartes unarmed combat?

[Trevak Dal]

So I've recently started listening to Joe Rogan's podcast while I work, and I've become fascinated with Brazilian Ju Jitsu, I went to a couple of classes not having ever really fought someone outside of gradeschool, but with an open mind and an eagerness to learn how to use my body better.

 

Now, in Deliverance Lost, the Alpha Legionary who had infiltrated the Ravenguard accidentally let slip a counter-astartes combat move developed by the Alpha Legion, and most everything else seems to be from the view point of history and sci-fi fans trying to explain how fighting and combat happens.

 

I got to wondering how knights in plate armor (because from what I've seen, mail and gambesons were pretty easy to fight in) would grapple with another knight in full plate.

 

It looks...odd. of course, you need to add several hundred pounds of genetically enhanced muscle, reflexes and then encase them in powered armor.

 

Another tangential thing, in a lot of 40k and 30k fiction it shows that Astartes just go all wife beater on Normies, not meaning to but just not knowing their own strength.

 

After rolling a few times in BJJ, getting choked out, barred and generally thrown around and twisted up by someone who could have killed me several times over, I find it hard to believe. Power armor on an Astartes enhances their already super hightened reflexes and dexterity, now they aren't going to go all Tenno and flip out like some synthskin wearing Assassins, but they should inherently know how far they need to go to put down a human without hurting them.

 

Basically I'm saying, that it would be possible to roll with an Astartes as a normal human...but it would still end up like a parent wrestling with their child. Maybe it's the stimulants injected by the armor?

 

Chainswords and Bolters are butchering weapons designed to be used to beast mode over dissenting humans with STC tech, to break a deadlock that Normies would be there for weeks, months or years longer. Many xenos also seem to favor similar armor and small arms capabilities, so given the enhanced size and strength of Astartes, they are ideally placed in combat against lesser foes.

 

But against other space marines, Bolters and chainswords should be a lot less potent than they show in the lore.

 

I ask all this because I'm trying to write a combat scene (after BJJ) and I'm having a hard time making it practical.

 

It would be a lot of wrestle-:cussing, to try and turn an Astartes over, and in armor, they may be able to "lock out" an arm to keep it from being put in a hold, or violently jam it back.

 

I got the same bias against augmetic replacements (being permanent "fixes"), when they have the technology to regrow tissue and could presumably regrow arms, certainly eyes.

 

And that meanders to the whole Dreadnought thing. Why not just have it be piloted by an able bodied Astartes veteran Sargent like a Mantis walker in Halo 4 and 5?

 

Decades of lore and all yes, grimdark and all yes, but it's one of those things that keeps me up in the day. I suppose one just has to accept it was made up as they went along by history buffs who loved fantasy and wanted to bring it into space.

[helterskelter]

I hate to use it as a reference but if you watch ultramarine, there is a sparring session, yes they use blades but it's astartes vs astartes combat visualized. And watch let's plays of the cut scenes/final fight from space marine of Titus vs Nemeroth.

It might not be specifically what you're after but will hopefully help in some way

[Kinstryfe]

My completely uneducated guesses, it seems to me that yeah, an Astartes could probably safely spar with a human, but to no benefit for the Astartes. It would be like a human trying to wrestle a silverback gorilla. It's possible that there are some humans who could do it, but I would imagine that an overwhelming majority of the time the gorilla would win handily. Then add on the power armor, and most humans would have no chance.

 

Also consider that Astartes still get angry, and all the things that come with that. Probably more easily than normal humans because they're built for aggression. Ever know someone who punched a hole in a wall out of anger? Now imagine an Astartes throwing that tantrum...

 

About Bolters and Chainswords, I think they were likely designed as overkill. A single bolt round can explode a human, tear a good chunk out of bigger xenos, and even blow up a bit of most structures. I think most of the representation where a bolt blows off a limb or explodes an Astartes is probably fairly spot on, provided it breaches the power armor. I've never seen any indication that it should be ineffective against Astartes, and I would argue that the assumption that they were created to put down baseline humans is likely incorrect. There were plenty of known xenos threats the Legions were going to have to take out, and I'd bet they were armed with them in mind. They're not lasguns with a little beam of light that'll pass thru you. A bolt round will literally explode inside your body. That'll do some damage to pretty much anything.

 

Lastly, Dreadnaughts. The grey knights already have their dreadknights, which basically act as a controlled exoskeleton. The main emphasis for Dreadnaughts has always been that it preserves the skills and investment in the Marine being interred. That's as or more important to the Astartes than the giant killy robot they inhabit. :)

[Urriak Urruk]

I don't think a human is going to be able to flip an Astartes in armor... he's just too big.

 

I did think of a campaign based in Necromunda, where a group of Imperial Fists is sent down to deal with some renegade gangers. I suppose Goliath gangers actually are large enough to wrestle with Astartes, though Escher I'm sure are still too short (and much too slight).

 

It would be interesting to see if an Astartes could flip an Ogryn.

[D3L]

I got the same bias against augmetic replacements (being permanent "fixes"), when they have the technology to regrow tissue and could presumably regrow arms, certainly eyes.

 

The technology may exist, however that is truly besides the point of the setting. While it can exist, it's in no way universal, the specialists, laboratories or resources are not necessarily present on every voidcraft, field station, world or indeed sector.

 

Augmetics are certainly visually a cruder fix (thought technically, far far far more difficult (miniaturisation, sensors, micro-servos AND graft rejection medication), and seemingly in this setting one that is more readily available, but regardless of advance-ness, its just as plausible as the tech priest tertiary scholam at various Forgeworlds having an oversubscription for the cybernetic replacement medicae degree, while the induced cellular growth course, does not

 

Look at the real world, we can regrow liver and kidney organs from stem-cells, this is not the defacto way it's done though, due to lack of resources, specialists and laboratories, the majority of replacement parts are found from black-market/prison organ harvesting in the Middle Kingdom while another large source is from terminal 'volunteers', so with this example you'll see the point that the most advanced effective method isn't necessarily the most common

 

 

Edited November 13, 2017 by D3L

[Frater Cornelius]

One thing to note is that 40k is by a bunch of nerds for a bunch of nerds. I do not expect any of the writers or design team to know how HEMA grappling in full armour works, the strength control of a body, the nuances of martial arts or anything related to actual military, not just fiction. Very little will be on point, but that is fine, because that is not the purpose of 40k. Instead, entertainment. I still think it is dumb that an Astartes can not control his strength and accidentally kills someone. These people crush skulls on a daily basis and are taught to control their bodies their entire life. Edited November 13, 2017 by Frater Cornelius

[Kallas]

One factor on Astartes going wife-beater: they are raised, built and trained to kill.

 

Many Astartes recruiting worlds are feral, or feudal, or a deathworld, or in some way a breeding ground for extremely tough and strong human specimens. These candidates are the best (usually physically, sometimes mentally).

 

Then they are implanted and treated with dozens of physical upgrades to improve peer, but they also have hormonal growth induced, which presumably also includes testosterone and probably other aggression increasing drugs.

 

And then their training. They have hypnoindoctrination, train almost all day every day, and their sole purpose in life is to fight and give their lives for the Emperor and Mankind. The entire culture of the (majority of) Astartes us WARWARWARWAR.

 

They live, breath and eat death.

 

Now, Astartes have plenty of control, as well as mastery of combat giving them better heat-of-the-moment perception, but their everything is focused on being the best killing machines possible.

 

When you look at a modern day soldier they're not even half as focused on killing. Most would rather be at home, many have families and/or other passions. Astartes, again generally, do not. While some, such as the Blood Angels, might have a predilection for some other pursuit this is often refocused into their goal of perfecting their abilities at warfare. The Blood Angels, for example, might produce fine artwork, but I'd hazard a guess that they're often of battle scenes, or that they do calligraphic designs to further their understanding of swordplay.

 

My point being, Astartes generally don't have a low power setting. They might know when to dial it in so as to not waste effort, but they'll almost always be looking for a killing blow, because that is their life's purpose.

 

There are some exceptions: the Salamanders, Space Wolves and (non Black Rage) Blood Angels are known to be quite humanitarian, but even they are still Astartes, with the whole total war mindset. Ultramarines are probably one of the best examples of the least militaristic - Ultramar as a recruitment base is far less savage (well, not so much in recent years) and Ultramarines are often schooled in statesmanship and actually directly deal with humans in a non-combat capacity.

[Claws and Effect]

I'm only going to address the Dreadnought part.

 

Dreadnoughts aren't piloted by anle bodied Astartes precisely because Dreadnoughts exist for the explicit purpose of allowing grievously injured Astartes to still fight.

[Sete]

Black Templars even go to church. :D So they have hobbies. Edited November 13, 2017 by Sete

[totgeboren]

When it comes to accidentally hurting someone, it's a huge difference between pure grappling (bjj) and 'unarmed combat', with striking and kicks.

 

For example, just rolling with someone smaller/weaker than you (say a lady or a teen) can be great fun, especially if they are much better than you. Skill makes up for a huge amount of bodyweight difference in grappling, but if the heavy partner is also pretty good skill can only do so much.

 

But when it comes to kicks and punches, even in friendly sparring people get hurt all the time. For instance, I was sparring a friend of mine, basically warming up but we both like to go kinda rough, and I received a kick to the elbow, which resulted in a crack in bone and a really swollen elbow! And we both where just engaged in friendly sparring!
I have managed to break a rib on my (much bigger) brother with a punch while sparring and so on, can name lots of injuries I have gotten and inflicted during friendly sparring sadly.

 

So, how does that apply to Marines? Well, they don't generally seem to practice simple grappling, at all. They have their practice duels and generally fight with weapons, facing other marines or combat servitors.

They can also withstand crazy amounts of punishment, and they also heal incredibly fast. I think simply due to marine muscle memory, most bouts with unaugmented humans would end up with a hospitalised human. They don't have any practice at all in interacting with normal humans, especially not in "friendly" combat. Their frame of reference would just be so badly adjusted to humans that serious injuries are bound to happen.

 

Dunno, have you tried helping really old people getting up from bed or from a car, and you think you are really gentle but they get a bit hurt because you applied lift say under the arm and you didn't make sure to apply it to big enough an area, and then they get bruised? That happened when I was helping my old grandmom out of the car, and I'm not a huge guy, I really was trying to be gentle but she was just sooo brittle.

I think how I was used to physically interact with people (mma and so on) made it difficult for me to fully understand just how frail she was. Marines would be in a similar situation with normal humans.
They might think "Sure, I will go super gentle with you" and then pop goes the shoulder or half the guys ribs are broken after the first roll.

[D3L]

An astartes would have as much to gain from sparring with human as you would with a particularly energetic monkey... You might have some sore puncture wounds and a few scratches.... But youre not going to improve your fighting style much and will have nothing broken

[Pulse]

There wouldn't be a day that goes past that Space Marines wouldn't train for unarmed combat, there are numerous references to them striking and kicking, using elbows and headbutts.

 

A Space Marine wouldn't spar with a human, there is nothing to be gained in the remotest sense, just reading the books and adding common military sense into the pot tells you that in training you do only what benefits you and only that.

 

Also probably isn't a good idea to bring "real world" fighting arguments into a convo, we are all human after all and not autistic children in the bodies of gods, that are bred for nothing but war and carnage.

Edited November 14, 2017 by Pulse

[Volt]

Sparring with a human seems like a good way for an accident to happen considering that Astartes punches can instantly server a man's neck or buckle APC/IFV armor. All he needs is to slip up once and impart too much strength into a blow and his human sparring buddy is now a smear on the wall.

[Frater Cornelius]

There wouldn't be a day that goes past that Space Marines wouldn't train for unarmed combat, there are numerous references to them striking and kicking, using elbows and headbutts.

 

A Space Marine wouldn't spar with a human, there is nothing to be gained in the remotest sense, just reading the books and adding common military sense into the pot tells you that in training you do only what benefits you and only that.

 

Also probably isn't a good idea to bring "real world" fighting arguments into a convo, we are all human after all and not autistic children in the bodies of gods, that are bred for nothing but war and carnage.

The last part annoys me a bit. This view that Marines are children with expensive equipment. I have yet to see them represented that way. The simple reason for that is that you simply don't give a child so much power and responsibility. Besides, Astartes are well known to lead worlds, some Chapters take their duties far beyond that. Sure, the fluff states that only a 14(?) years old can become an Astartes, but I have rarely it enforced, but there is official fluff about numerous Chapters successfully recruiting adults.

 

We have UM governing the 500 worlds, Dark Angels have their complex hierarchy and their whole deal with shame about the Fallen, Guardians of the Covenant are literally monks and scribes, Salamanders are well integrated into their society, the list goes on. There are simply too many examples of Marines being just as mentally mature and not as hellbent on war and immature behaviour some would like them to have. It is like someone established this rule about Marines being that way, but noone really wants to follow it because its dumb.

Edited November 14, 2017 by Frater Cornelius

[OutlawSixActual]

The problem with most kinds of martial arts / grappling is that they are closer to sports, not really translating well to real combat.

 

They are great techniques for police officers, who need to subdue and arrest prisoners, but when your job is to break things and kill people, its impractical.

 

I taught combatives at a low level when i was an infantry guy, and it was a lot of fun, but once you put on combat gear, its just silly. You’re not going to try to armbar someone, you’re going to beat his face in with your weapon/a rock/his helmet/your helmet, and create enough space to shoot him or stomp an armored boot through his brains, then move to the next one. You’re not going to be graceful, have sure footing, or focus on one person at a time. If the fight goes to the ground, either his buddies will kill you or your buddies will kill him, or a grenade will kill you both.

 

However, there is still use of this kind of sparring in a practice setting, but i think that when you spend decades practicing against other superhumans, muscle memory can be hard to tone down.

 

I’d be real skeptical of an Astartes getting tied up by a mortal. I’d imagine it’d be like wrestling my 4 year old. He’ll get a lot out of it, and maybe i could practice technique in a low effort environment or something, but if i needed to i could just fling the little fella across the room. Now if somehow a mortal could get an Astartes to submit, it would be so unbelievably shocking and embarassing that i think there would be some serious repercussions for the chapter.

[Volt]

The problem with most kinds of martial arts / grappling is that they are closer to sports, not really translating well to real combat.

 

They are great techniques for police officers, who need to subdue and arrest prisoners, but when your job is to break things and kill people, its impractical.

 

I taught combatives at a low level when i was an infantry guy, and it was a lot of fun, but once you put on combat gear, its just silly. You’re not going to try to armbar someone, you’re going to beat his face in with your weapon/a rock/his helmet/your helmet, and create enough space to shoot him or stomp an armored boot through his brains, then move to the next one. You’re not going to be graceful, have sure footing, or focus on one person at a time. If the fight goes to the ground, either his buddies will kill you or your buddies will kill him, or a grenade will kill you both.

 

However, there is still use of this kind of sparring in a practice setting, but i think that when you spend decades practicing against other superhumans, muscle memory can be hard to tone down.

 

I’d be real skeptical of an Astartes getting tied up by a mortal. I’d imagine it’d be like wrestling my 4 year old. He’ll get a lot out of it, and maybe i could practice technique in a low effort environment or something, but if i needed to i could just fling the little fella across the room. Now if somehow a mortal could get an Astartes to submit, it would be so unbelievably shocking and embarassing that i think there would be some serious repercussions for the chapter.

Have you checked out Shastarvidiya before? It's military, lethal Indian martial arts used by the Sikhs but by other Indians as well focused on melee combat in battlefield formation. It's incredibly brutal, involves you acting an awful lot like a gorilla, and purely aiming for vital areas such as the throat, wrists, inner thigh, and back to beat down, cut up, and take out an opponent rapidly and advance onto the next guy on the battlefield. Notable as you aren't ever taught to take a step backward, as you can't do that in a formation. Instead it purely teaches forward or die.

[Trevak Dal]

To be clear, the scene doesn't involve a human sparring with a Astartes, I was just using that as an example about how they are shown to lack control but should have it, but I've gotten a lot of insight about how they (Astartes) are that I hadn't considered before.

 

I found coldfyre's post very interesting, if modern battle gear isn't conducive to hand to hand, then power armor on power armor would be less so. Makes that..."fight" in Halo 5 between Chief and Locke look even weaker.

Edited November 14, 2017 by Trevak Dal

[Trevak Dal]

I hate to use it as a reference but if you watch ultramarine, there is a sparring session, yes they use blades but it's astartes vs astartes combat visualized. And watch let's plays of the cut scenes/final fight from space marine of Titus vs Nemeroth.

It might not be specifically what you're after but will hopefully help in some way

Yeah I loved that game (Space Marine) and that fight scene was why I don't have horns or spikes on my csms lol.

[Lucerne]

Bolters are meant to kill Orks.

[Adeptus]

One thing to remember is that Astartes aren't just big humans. They're hyperconditioned, psycho-indoctrinated, wound-to-breaking-point killing machines. They wouldn't approach a wrestling match with a human the same way a parent would with a child, and even if they meant to hold back their conditioning and indoctrination could very well make it impossible.

Re: writing. If you're not sure how to get the technical details right, then leave them out. Instead write about generic actions, like heaving, grabbing, twisting, pushing, pulling, locking, tearing etc.

[Grim Dog Studios]

I've always imagine the Astartes having a fighting style similar to Krav Maga. I don't know a great deal about it myself, but if you've seen videos of it, it pretty much takes the most brutal attacks/counter-attacks from the more common martial arts and includes them all in one and then some.

But at the end of the day, does an Astartes really need to know martial arts/unarmed combat when he is strong enough to remove a normal human's head from his shoulders with a signle punch? 

[Kallas]

But at the end of the day, does an Astartes really need to know martial arts/unarmed combat when he is strong enough to remove a normal human's head from his shoulders with a signle punch?

When you're fighting Genestealer Hybrids and you've used all of your ammo purging their mates, that's when you use Krav Mastartes

[Stoic Raptor]

Indeed - the fighting style isn't so much for fighting humans as it is for Xenos - lots of stuff as fast as (or faster than) a Marine.

[jwr]

I always had the idea that Astartes would have multiple styles to call on.  They need something that can allow them to meet an Ork's strength and aggression, something else to at least compete with an Eldar's speed, something else to tear Crons into bits too small to reanimate, something else to mulch through a unit human norms fast enough to get to the guy in the back with the plasmagun.   Given their augmentation and lifespan, they can have styles that can make the most of attribute X and they have the decades to master styles 1-4.

[Pulse]

 

The last part annoys me a bit. This view that Marines are children with expensive equipment. I have yet to see them represented that way. The simple reason for that is that you simply don't give a child so much power and responsibility. Besides, Astartes are well known to lead worlds, some Chapters take their duties far beyond that. Sure, the fluff states that only a 14(?) years old can become an Astartes, but I have rarely it enforced, but there is official fluff about numerous Chapters successfully recruiting adults.

 

We have UM governing the 500 worlds, Dark Angels have their complex hierarchy and their whole deal with shame about the Fallen, Guardians of the Covenant are literally monks and scribes, Salamanders are well integrated into their society, the list goes on. There are simply too many examples of Marines being just as mentally mature and not as hellbent on war and immature behaviour some would like them to have. It is like someone established this rule about Marines being that way, but noone really wants to follow it because its dumb.

 

 

It may annoy you but it states quite clearly that teenagers are selected and not very many above the age of 16 or 17. As for adults successfully becoming Space Marines, if you are talking about the Heresy era, sure why not, everything was golden and rosy back then, anything was possible.

 

Aaron Demski-Bowden, posted on this forum and others, describing how Space Marines actually are in terms of mentality. I just lazily paraphrased.

 

There is nothing to say Space Marines cannot be "mature" or their abilities as the best fighting force within the Imperium, i didn't say anything remotely like that.

 

But either way, this isn't a discussion on maturity.

Edited November 15, 2017 by Pulse