Astartes unarmed combat?

[Brother Tyler]

The real question is "why would a member of the Adeptus Astartes 'roll' (i.e., practice groundfighting) with an un-augmented human being?"

 

Two likely scenarios come to mind:

 

The first is the training process, turning a neophyte scout into a full-fledged battle-brother. It is likely that each Chapter has developed systems of unarmed combat* and those systems are part of a scout's earliest training, lasting throughout their active life as a Space Marine (i.e., until they are killed or incapacitated beyond mobility/fighting). The trainers (i.e., Chaplains, experienced battle-brothers and veterans) must take part in this training. This doesn't truly fit the hypothesized situation, though, as even scout neophytes have some level of augmentation.

 

The second, and far less likely (in my mind), is some scenario in which the rules of engagement for the Adeptus Astartes limit them from killing certain targets within certain parameters (perhaps a battle-brother seconded to an Inquisitor has orders from the Inquisitor to capture someone or some similar situation).

 

We could imagine all sorts of scenarios, most of them very unlikely.

 

When the Space Marines drop into a combat zone, they're not there to restore stability and ensure that the political climate afterward remains favorable to the strategic objectives of the state. They're there to enact the Emperor's Justice, and what the victims (or their surviving kin) think afterwards doesn't really matter. If Johnny the high school wrestler decides to go toe-to-toe with a Space Marine that has run out of ammo (from killing the rest of the wrestling team, probably) and has lost his combat knife (because the heretic whose chest he rammed the blade into fell off the platform, miraculously wrenching the combat blade from the battle-brother's grasp (the Chaplains will assign him penance, don't worry)), he's going to quickly find out that there's no "tapping out" with the 7 foot killing machine. He's going to die a very quick and very messy death.

 

The Adeptus Astartes are not a military force that is comparable to modern military forces in terms of how they are employed. In the grimdark milieu of the 41st Millennium, the Adeptus Astartes are a force that is used almost solely for the purpose of killing (sure, there are some exceptions). When an Adeptus Astartes force engages the enemy, it's going to be brutal and bloody. Their rules of engagement are generally set to "obliterate" rather than having lower levels such as modern forces might have (e.g., stability operations, riot control, area security, etc.). The Adeptus Astartes take shock and awe and turn it up to 11.

 

It is likely that the only regular scenario in which the Adeptus Astartes exercise some level of control in their martial arts is in their regular training, especially with neophyte scouts (it just won't do to get carried away and kill or incapacitate the Chapter's future battle-brothers). There are plenty of Chapters, though, that are brutal, even in training, and deaths or serious injuries are not unheard of. That scenario isn't the one posited by the OP, however. Even if it were, it would be peer to peer, so comparable to us lowly un-augmented humans rolling in the Octagon or cage or strip or dojo or whatever.

 

As for the nature of Adeptus Astartes "martial arts," they are far more likely to use military/commando type systems (with little or no emphasis on things such as submissions, except with lethal/destructive applications). So where a BJJ practitioner might execute a Kimura, an Adeptus Astartes that has to resort to unarmed combat is simply going to rip the arm off (assuming he gets into a situation where he is executing something similar to a Kimura). Realistically, you should probably ignore BJJ and most other sports martial arts (which includes European fencing, Kendo, collegiate wrestling, boxing, Karate, and the vast majority of martial arts we know today), except insofar as fighting is fighting and each of those includes fundamentals and frameworks that are relevant within a lethally-oriented system of fighting. Basically, a Space Marine isn't fighting for points, or a medal, or a trophy. He's fighting for real. The winner at the end of the Space Marine's fight is standing higher than his opponent, not because he's on a higher platform, but because his opponent is a bloody corpse on the ground.

 

* Something to keep in mind, though, is that "martial arts" doesn't just mean unarmed combat, whether striking or grappling. "Martial arts" encompasses a whole range of weapons and systems. The term "martial arts" might even be considered inaccurate, depending on one's interpretation of the term. That is a far more complex argument, however, but might be illustrated by differences in terminology used by two U.S. military forces, the Army and the Marine Corps. The Army's system is (or was at one time) called a "combatives" system whereas the Marine Corps named their system a "martial arts" system. Practically speaking, both are largely similar, simply combining elements of groundfighting, joint manipulations, striking, and weapons (knives, bayonets, and others) into hybrid systems that focus on techniques that are (relatively) simple to learn and execute. Each also incorporates elements of philosophical and educational teachings (i.e., warrior ethos and similar subjects, not "why am I here?" philosophy). A common theme in both systems, when engaged in combat with an enemy (i.e., at the high end of the spectrum, not when performing peace keeping operations) is that the preferred technique would be to shoot the enemy, preferably with as big a gun as is available (up to and including artillery and guided munitions). Lesser (i.e., less lethal) techniques are meant for the lower levels of the spectrum where the ROE are different (and generally not fitting within the operational uses of the fictional Adeptus Astartes in a very violent fictional setting). Both the Army's and Marine Corps' systems are similar to countless other "styles" used by other military, para-military, security, and police forces throughout the world.

 

Now that I think about it, the strong quasi-religious teachings of Adeptus Astartes warrior cults might just lend to the use of the "martial arts" moniker, wrapping up their combat training with their spiritual training, understanding of tactics, etc.

 

We could hem and haw about (potentially) unrealistic aspects of the lore such as the OP presented (e.g., bionics, dreadnoughts), but those are red herrings. Those are in the lore simply for the rule of cool (and because re-grown limbs don't result in revenue from sales of miniatures ).

[Stoic Raptor]

Well spoken.  Basically, the Astartes are self-governed and don't have to restrain themselves because of Congress or the TV viewers at home.  Theirs is a "total war" approach, they don't fight with one hand figuratively tied behind their back (though they could likely still kill everything with the other one).

[OPTIMVSCHRISTVS]

I imagine any Astartes fighting system involving mortal opponents would be heavily focused on rapidly destroying multiple opponents rather than rolling with just one, in order to the advantage of their enhanced physiology and power armor- we see plenty of this sort of thing in the fluff in things like boarding actions, with them casually smashing crewmen and naval armsmen.  Given the sheer disparity in strength between a Space Marine and his opponent(s), I don't believe there is any real life system that would be comparable (unless there's system designed for fighting mobs of children that I'm unaware of). 

 

I think such a system would definitely exist in-universe, and would be distinct from techniques employed against other Astartes (or bigger opponents like Orks or larger Tyranid bioforms). 

 

The above systems/techniques would cover the vast majority of situations in which an Astartes would need to fight hand-to-hand- as for nonlethal techniques, I wouldn't doubt for a second that it'd be incorporated to some extent (capturing prisoners for interrogation, etc).

[Black Cohort]

Astartes unarmed combat would be designed with one thing in mind rapid and total destruction of the enemy. It will be savage, brutal and designed to use their power armour as well. There won't be attempts to grapple or score technical points, it will often use brute force and any body part required. A marine in power armour could easily just rush a human and crush him or smash him out of the way while seriously injuring the human. If fighting unarmed against stronger threats they will use their intelligence to quickly determine weak point and then aim to inflict maximum force and trauma to that point. When Astartes fight there is only the winner and the dead/ dying.

[Mileposter]

We see Astartes Martial Arts all the time - Way of the Power Fist!

 

... I'll see myself out now...

[Marshal Wolfhart]

Krav Maga anyone? (military application)

The aim is to kill the opponent asap, while not getting killed in return. Compared to us mere mortals, the latter is mostly no problem for an Astartes, as the capability of regeneration and withstanding pain and trauma neglect things like dodging a mere knife, you just take the blow where it isnt critical and either tear the head off or spit some poison or whatever...

 

There might always be ritual trials, compare to salamanders and their hunt for lizards. Also there might be something similar to medieval ordeals, where arguments are settled in duels.

Edited November 15, 2017 by Marshal Wolfhart

[Laughingman]

To Answer the original poster, I suspect most full grown astartes have no interest in grappling humans because there is no challenge to it, Fully powered armored marines weight in excess of 800+ pounds  a solid  fist, elbow or body slam is likely going to brake bones and rupture organs.

[Freman Bloodglaive]

If you look at the difference between knife fighting and knife killing you'll see the difference between military combatives and martial arts. Even in things like MMA they're holding back, not trying to injure or kill each other. If you told one fighter, "Take the other guy out, or you and your family are dead," the fight would be over in seconds. As one wag commented about using MMA in self defence, "Ask what things you're not allowed to do in the ring, then train to do those."

 

Astartes are special forces cranked up past 11. As already noted, when they're not killing they're practicing killing, when they're not practicing killing they're thinking about killing, and for all we know when they're asleep they dream about killing. A Marine expects to die in battle, and believes that he earns his place with the Emperor through killing a lot of the Imperium's enemies before then. Take the most fanatical of Islamic jihadis. Strip away anything that might cause him to hesitate, compassion, fear, mercy etc. Enhance his body through surgery and genetic engineering. Encase him in a powered suit of tank armour, and arm him with the most brutal weapons developed in 30,000 years of war. Point him at your enemies and bring an umbrella to shield you from the blood spatter.

 

If you look at historical Western martial arts you'll see that grappling in armour was trained for, but for a very specific purpose. It was to lock up your opponent so that when you stuck your knife in them to kill them, they didn't have any way to kill you in that time period between you stabbing them and them dying, which can be 90 seconds or more. A marine might train in grappling, so that when facing someone armed and armoured similarly to himself he can kill the other guy without retaliation, but he wouldn't bother against a normal human where a simple punch is enough to crush a human skull.

[Stoic Raptor]

As one wag commented about using MMA in self defence, "Ask what things you're not allowed to do in the ring, then train to do those."

 

 

Everything I remember about baton training as a Guardsman is "where not to strike", but you'd better believe that if my life was on the line and all I had was a PR-24, those are exactly the places I'd strike.

 

And that's the difference between subdual and mortal combat.