Vostroyan Guard winning Warzone: Atlanta

[H311fi5h]

According to reddit/facebook Andrew Whittaker made 1st place with a Vostroyan list.

Infantry Squads with Lascannon and Plasma Gun forming the core of the army isn't unexpected. But it is very nice to see a Guard list with lots of bodies doing really well without commissars.

Spreading out the anti-tank guns is probably the theme of this list. I still see people playing heavy weapons squads with Lascannons. This list confirms again that they are only useful for cheap weapons. The expensive anti-tank guns have to be protected. 12 single las cannons and 4 manticores mean that Magnus & Mortarion can never feel save.

 

But what I feel is most interesting is the choice of regimental doctrine. I didn't regard Vostroya as particularly good. Until now I guess.

I was building my lists around Cadian Infantry Squads with quasi twin-linked Lascannons. But maybe the extra 6" really do make all the small arms fire much more deadly. What do you think?

[Sanguinius Chosen Wing]

As someone that's been struggling with a pure vostroyan list it's interesting but I really cant see that 6 inch mattering that much honestly. 30 inch plas is nice but compared to the other regiments I'm not sure on why it was selected.

 

Does look good for my death korps that at least some of it is competitive

[Zectz]

Thanks for sharing. Well in reality the list is multiple regiment detachments so you can't really say it's a Vostroyan Guard list winning the tournament but still.

 

The Cadian artillery detachment is there to instant delete any Chaos Primarch and I love it. But as you said, there must be a reason he went with Vostroyan for his infantry instead of Cadian. The main benefit of Vostroyan is the stratagem but that only works on a single important squad per turn like a Tank commander so the only reason to go Vostroyan for an infantry spam list is the extra range on the weapons which he must value higher than the Cadian rerolls.

 

I just want to point out also that he's bringing backline veteran squads with maxed out grenade launchers, which according to 75% of the people on this forum is a terrible life choice. Some of us have been saying that the choice between plasma & grenade launcher isn't that set in stone but when you put it on a 3+ BS model the grenade launcher is clearly better due to the cost difference.

 

Likewise a lot of people have been saying the Vostroyan doctrine is bad and yet there are people winning tournaments with it. So if people on a forum say something is bad wether it's a unit, relic or doctrine, don't just take their word for it. Try it yourself and see. Don't be afraid of using less popular units/lists. Things will surprise you.

Edited November 13, 2017 by Zectz

[Mitchverr]

Im very suprised to see a death rider detatchment myself, I didnt think anyone would be bold enough to risk it for a biscuit while also bringing manticores which afaik are considered sub par, no?

 

 

Was this a full scale waac event or a more fluff event?

 

 

Though an extra 6 inches doesnt seem much (insert joke here) it can mean an extra turn of laying into a close combat based enemy and that shooty armies have to engage you from within range instead of sitting a little out of range firing away (eg 30 inch range enemies no longer can skirt your force).

 

 

But yeah, the core force is to be expected, mass mortars, lascannon infantry, I am still just suprised to see the death riders in near the same "build" i planned to take.

 

IIRC the plasma for vet thing was before the price hike, since then i have seen a steady "this or that" settling myself.

Edited November 13, 2017 by Mitchverr

[Major_Gilbear]

I think Zectz makes some very good points.

 

With respect to the Vostroyan buff of 6" range, it does mean that they might need to move less to get their lasguns in range, which in turn makes the lascannons more worthwhile. It also makes it harder for enemy units to avoid being tagged by multiple squads.

 

Some other things that struck me about the list: no weapon upgrades on commanders or sergeants, no command or special weapons squads, no heavy bolters (besides those on the Manticores).

 

Besides that, there are many other game variables: level and nature of terrain on the board, what lists did he face, did the opponents make any mistakes, did he avoid bad matchups (through luck), how many other participants were using Codex lists vs Index lists, etc.

 

So whilst it is interesting to see what successful lists use, I still think that there is much to be said for trying things out yourself if you have the models. Seeing the GL veterans has rather pushed me into trying to make up a few GL models to try them out like that myself.

[Brother Tual]

Can a primaris psyker have the relic of cadia?

[Captain_Krash]

No they cannot take cadain relics maybe it was a typo...at least I hope so.

 

Nice to hear some more Guard list on top in the tournament scene.

 

Krash

Edited November 13, 2017 by Captain_Krash

[Halfpint100]

Can a primaris psyker have the relic of cadia?

 

Good point. It cannot, the psyker is not cadian. gotta love the fact that the no. 1 list is technically illegal

[TheShredder]

This list seems rather odd. For example, even if he couldn't afford all-plasmaguns, I'm perplexed that he put the Grenade Launchers on the models with better BS. Was it to make them less of a target or something? Hell, they don't even benefit from the Vostroyan doctrine. 

 

Quite honestly, I'm not sure why he's using Veterans in the first place. Given the cost and rather pitiful use of special weapons, he seems to be getting very limited use out of their BS3+. Seems like he'd have been better off taking more Infantry Squads and then filling his Elites out with Astropaths or somesuch.

 

I also really don't understand why he's chosen Vostoryan for his main detachment. It seems Cadian would have been a far better fit. 

 

 

Can a primaris psyker have the relic of cadia?

 

Good point. It cannot, the psyker is not cadian. gotta love the fact that the no. 1 list is technically illegal

 

 

Good catch there. Yeah, Primaris Psykers can only take the core relics.

[Halfpint100]

This list seems rather odd. For example, even if he couldn't afford all-plasmaguns, I'm perplexed that he put the Grenade Launchers on the models with better BS. Was it to make them less of a target or something? Hell, they don't even benefit from the Vostroyan doctrine. 

 

Quite honestly, I'm not sure why he's using Veterans in the first place. Given the cost and rather pitiful use of special weapons, he seems to be getting very limited use out of their BS3+. Seems like he'd have been better off taking more Infantry Squads and then filling his Elites out with Astropaths or somesuch.

 

I also really don't understand why he's chosen Vostoryan for his main detachment. It seems Cadian would have been a far better fit. 

 

 

Can a primaris psyker have the relic of cadia?

 

Good point. It cannot, the psyker is not cadian. gotta love the fact that the no. 1 list is technically illegal

 

 

Good catch there. Yeah, Primaris Psykers can only take the core relics.

 

Its because plasma on guardsmen is 7points, but on vets, they are 13points. grenade launchers are a very viable choice on vets now

[TheShredder]

Its because plasma on guardsmen is 7points, but on vets, they are 13points. grenade launchers are a very viable choice on vets now

 

I accept your premise but disagree wholeheartedly with your conclusion. 

 

If you're wasting your 3 special weapons taking Grenade Launchers, then I'd argue that there was no point in you taking Veterans in the first place. You'd be better off just buying more Las/Plas Infantry Squads.

 

Especially since Grenade Launchers don't even get any benefit from the Vostroyan doctrine.

[Mitchverr]

 

I accept your premise but disagree wholeheartedly with your conclusion. 

 

If you're wasting your 3 special weapons taking Grenade Launchers, then I'd argue that there was no point in you taking Veterans in the first place. You'd be better off just buying more Las/Plas Infantry Squads.

 

Especially since Grenade Launchers don't even get any benefit from the Vostroyan doctrine.

 

 

Still have to take 3 elites to get a brigade though, could also come down to what models you own.

Edited November 13, 2017 by Mitchverr

[TheShredder]

 

Still have to take 3 elites to get a brigade though, could also come down to what models you own.

 

Regarding the 3 Elites, as I said earlier, I think you'd be better off with 3 Astropaths and then putting the remaining points elsewhere.

 

Regarding what models you own, sure, I can understand that. Same way I can understand people using bad models, weapons, loadouts or whatever for flavour or because they just happen to like those models. However but it still doesn't make those models in any way good or optimal. 

[Vel'Cona]

Hmm, 3 GL Vets . . . it's a neat idea, I guess he's not worried about "Objective Secured" because they're backline and shouldn't have to contest with anyone else anyway.  It's interesting what makes different models/units work and how players adapt to their own meta.  There's a guy I know locally that swears by Aggressors despite what the Internet says and he's won several tournies, largely in attribution to that unit!  :)

[Feral_80]

I guess that is not too bad a configuration for Vets. Even if it does not benefit from the Vostroyan doctrine, for just under 100 pts you get a unit with a decent fire output, which has enough wounds to resist some fire especially if deployed in cover.

 

It is quite a flexible unit since it can stand still and fire all at BS 3+ (or a reliable BS 2+ lascannon etc./turn with the stratagem), or move and still get lasguns and 3 grenades plus a BS 4+ lascannon (or back to 3+ with the stratagem). I assume the intention was to use these to move and grab mid-field objectives, since except the DKK and Sentinels the list has little mobility.

 

Since these vets deploy lascannon, they are not going to receive frfsrf anyway, so I guess the grenades are worth the loss of a lasgun as they will still benefit from other orders. I can see grenade launchers as an ok choice for footslogging vets, since plasmaguns are now too expensive for them.

Edited November 13, 2017 by Feral_80

[Chris521]

In addition to not actually being allowed to take that relic on the psyker,  I wonder how he played it?  That relic has terrible wording which hasn't been FAQ'd yet.  It's not clear if it's a one turn deal or not.  If he's giving that bonus to all those Mantacores every turn, it's no wonder he won, especially with the prevalence of Chaos armies in tournaments.

 

Edit: He said he used it once per game

 

also

 

"From the Competitive 40K FB group, just posted by the man himself: 
"Hey guys, it has been pointed out here and elsewhere that I indeed put the relic on a unit that could not have it and thus my list was technically illegal. I would just like to say, that I had no idea pre-event that Primaris Psychers didn't have the <Regiment> rule. I totally read right passed that fact and it sucks. All lists were published pre-event and Dozens of people read it and didn't say anything, it was screened by the TO's and they missed it, and I had no idea at all. It's small comfort, but putting that relic on that guy was an honest to God mistake. I played my ass off this weekend and I know I did not win the event because I listed the relic on the Psycher instead of one of my Company Commanders. It was a mistake and it's a bummer. It is entirely fair to put an asterisk next to my win but to the extent possible, I would very much appreciate no one calling me a "cheater" or implicate that I did this on purpose. I did not. And frankly I'm pretty upset about my mistake because it mars an otherwise awesome win at the best event in 40K."" 

Edited November 13, 2017 by Chris521

[Guardsman Bob]

 

I accept your premise but disagree wholeheartedly with your conclusion. 

 

If you're wasting your 3 special weapons taking Grenade Launchers, then I'd argue that there was no point in you taking Veterans in the first place. You'd be better off just buying more Las/Plas Infantry Squads.

 

Especially since Grenade Launchers don't even get any benefit from the Vostroyan doctrine.

 

 

Still have to take 3 elites to get a brigade though, could also come down to what models you own.

Thanks Mitch, I was trying to figure that particular choice out. Considering how many bodies were on the table I wonder how many opponents either forgot, didn’t understand the target values, or simply had better shots to take.

 

Part of me was a little disappointed it wasn’t a pure list. It would have been far more thrilling if it had been. Getting seriously tempted to buy a pile of Deathriders now.

[Mitchverr]

 

 Getting seriously tempted to buy a pile of Deathriders now.

 

 

Though they are great fun to play with and to paint (i got 20 of them) I bought mine 2 years ago and they were very "iffy" when I got them, significant cleanup was required for every single model and every piece of them (hell just to stick the nose on the front of the horse took about 30min of careful cleaning each).

 

Make sure to also have a good amount of filler, the leg attaching was also a serious pain but once done, they make a very nice central part of an army but they take a significant amount of work to clean up per model.

 

(you can also put some wings on their back and when they enter the table outflanking shout "then the winged hussars arrived" for extra points lol)

Edited November 13, 2017 by Mitchverr

[Withershadow]

Grenade launchers are awesome, the ones throwing derision at them do not use them due to mathhammer, or keep citing trauma from that one game where they used one that one time and rolled a 1.  Let's leave that topic to the 4 or 5 threads it's was heatedly discussed.

 

Vostroyan I'm sure was for the additional range on the plasmaguns.  Other than the misplacement of the Relic of Cadia, pretty brutal list if a bit spammy.  I guess it's nice to know Krieg riders are considered top tier... I guess.

[micahwc]

Even lasguns with 30" range and 15" rapid fire combined with orders are decent. It lets you fire your lasguns a turn earlier against an advancing opponent.

[Schlitzaf]

From the looks of it the Veterans were to fill slots in the Squad. And more importantly, I want to take a stab and say those Veterans have Shotguns. That gives him a way to clear out objectives, and advance while his Infantry provide Covering Fire for his Veterans. In close combat, the additionals shot would be helpful.

 

Also GLaunchers are about equivalent to 3 Lasguns FRSRF, without requiring a Commander to Baby Sit.

 

The Lascannon is a mystery. Likely a just in case weapon more than one he’d actually use. And in regards to his illegal outfitting. He could have just dropped a mortar squad and gotten the Company Commander he needed. And a couple Astropaths, alongside 10 Points of additional fun things. Which might or might not have made a tangible difference.

 

The biggest thing I suspect however, is he choose Vostroyans to be able place units in backfield and still shoot across board. Assuming tournaments utilize 5th Standard terrain (LoS Block Center and Mid in each corner and then smaller pieces between each Mid Size), Vostroyan Weapon range allow them to threaten/see behind the LoS blocking center and still shoot.) Board is about 110” across diagonal so 55” to Center.

 

A regular Gaurd Army would have to stand 7” up to shoot. Vostroyans can deploy further into corner to denial deep strike while being out of range. The manticore and Hvyteams go behind LOS center and Veterans March up using Sentinal Support.

 

Atleast that is my supposition based on the list.

[Mitchverr]

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1UlbTW0W06qOlaYfDh6vdmghtK1wKtGHs

 

BTW, incase anyone wanted to see his competition.

[TheShredder]

Grenade launchers are awesome, the ones throwing derision at them do not use them due to mathhammer, or keep citing trauma from that one game where they used one that one time and rolled a 1.  Let's leave that topic to the 4 or 5 threads it's was heatedly discussed.

 

Grenade Launchers are garbage. The ones praising them are the ones who don't understand mathhammer or who remember that one time when they used them and kept rolling 6s.

 

We're playing the game where we just blindly throw assertions at each other, right? 

 

From the looks of it the Veterans were to fill slots in the Squad. And more importantly, I want to take a stab and say those Veterans have Shotguns. That gives him a way to clear out objectives, and advance while his Infantry provide Covering Fire for his Veterans. In close combat, the additionals shot would be helpful.

 

If you're right, it seems a bit odd to put a Lascannon on a unit that's intending to advance. 

 

 

Also GLaunchers are about equivalent to 3 Lasguns FRSRF, without requiring a Commander to Baby Sit.

 

See, I look at it the other way around - you've literally paid points and used your Special Weapon slot for 1.5 extra Lasgun shots. Colour me unimpressed.

 

Also, for the price of 6 Grenade Launchers on Veterans, you could have bought a Company Commander who could have given those squads actual FRFSRF. This would have both outperformed the Grenade Launchers themselves and also affected the entire unit (not just the 3 guys with special weapons).

 

To reiterate, I can see why Veterans would want to avoid Plasmaguns. However, I don't consider this a point in favour of the Grenade Launcher - I just see it as a reason to not take Veterans. 

Edited November 13, 2017 by TheShredder

[Mitchverr]

In addition to not actually being allowed to take that relic on the psyker,  I wonder how he played it?  That relic has terrible wording which hasn't been FAQ'd yet.  It's not clear if it's a one turn deal or not.  If he's giving that bonus to all those Mantacores every turn, it's no wonder he won, especially with the prevalence of Chaos armies in tournaments.

 

Edit: He said he used it once per game

 

also

 

"From the Competitive 40K FB group, just posted by the man himself: 

"Hey guys, it has been pointed out here and elsewhere that I indeed put the relic on a unit that could not have it and thus my list was technically illegal. I would just like to say, that I had no idea pre-event that Primaris Psychers didn't have the <Regiment> rule. I totally read right passed that fact and it sucks. All lists were published pre-event and Dozens of people read it and didn't say anything, it was screened by the TO's and they missed it, and I had no idea at all. It's small comfort, but putting that relic on that guy was an honest to God mistake. I played my ass off this weekend and I know I did not win the event because I listed the relic on the Psycher instead of one of my Company Commanders. It was a mistake and it's a bummer. It is entirely fair to put an asterisk next to my win but to the extent possible, I would very much appreciate no one calling me a "cheater" or implicate that I did this on purpose. I did not. And frankly I'm pretty upset about my mistake because it mars an otherwise awesome win at the best event in 40K."" 

 

Just saw this and, well, i could be wrong but....

 

Anyway, not noticing no regiment on it is kind of possible, but the problem is its repeatedly said in the book isnt it? Anyway, TO should have caught it.

His commanders are either death korps or vostroyan, he cant put it on them, cadian item, no?

Finally, not much humble pie in there lol.

 

Oh well, damage is done, least he only used it once per game lol.

[TheShredder]

 

In addition to not actually being allowed to take that relic on the psyker,  I wonder how he played it?  That relic has terrible wording which hasn't been FAQ'd yet.  It's not clear if it's a one turn deal or not.  If he's giving that bonus to all those Mantacores every turn, it's no wonder he won, especially with the prevalence of Chaos armies in tournaments.

 

Edit: He said he used it once per game

 

also

 

"From the Competitive 40K FB group, just posted by the man himself: 

"Hey guys, it has been pointed out here and elsewhere that I indeed put the relic on a unit that could not have it and thus my list was technically illegal. I would just like to say, that I had no idea pre-event that Primaris Psychers didn't have the <Regiment> rule. I totally read right passed that fact and it sucks. All lists were published pre-event and Dozens of people read it and didn't say anything, it was screened by the TO's and they missed it, and I had no idea at all. It's small comfort, but putting that relic on that guy was an honest to God mistake. I played my ass off this weekend and I know I did not win the event because I listed the relic on the Psycher instead of one of my Company Commanders. It was a mistake and it's a bummer. It is entirely fair to put an asterisk next to my win but to the extent possible, I would very much appreciate no one calling me a "cheater" or implicate that I did this on purpose. I did not. And frankly I'm pretty upset about my mistake because it mars an otherwise awesome win at the best event in 40K."" 

 

Just saw this and, well, i could be wrong but....

 

Anyway, not noticing no regiment on it is kind of possible, but the problem is its repeatedly said in the book isnt it? Anyway, TO should have caught it.

His commanders are either death korps or vostroyan, he cant put it on them, cadian item, no?

Finally, not much humble pie in there lol.

 

Oh well, damage is done, least he only used it once per game lol.

 

 

Yeah, there was nowhere in his army that he could have legally put it without either having a useless Company Commander (with no units of the same regiment to order) or else changing his Vostroyan detachment to a Cadian one.

 

I'm very surprised that no one else caught it when proof-reading his list. I mean, it was noticed in this thread within the first few posts.