Vostroyan Guard winning Warzone: Atlanta

[Schlitzaf]

Shredder, I am just trying to theory hammer. I have no good idea why the best I have is the advance thing (and for the Lascannon....because he has the option?). Like unless he had a super strategy I am missing, beside advancing them every turn. I am of the same opanion you are. Or he was actually intending to use the Vostroyan Shoot in Combat Order.

 

In regard to the whole regiment thing, if he had just dropped a mortar squad with a Company Commander. Or not taken the Melta Bombs on Death Commander and use an Asrtropath. Etc. There were several side grades he could quite reasonably have done to get a Platoon/Company Commander.

Edited November 13, 2017 by Schlitzaf

[H311fi5h]

Replacing one veteran squad -95 points

adding an Astropath for the elite slot +15

Cadian Platoon Commander +20

Cadian Infantry Squad with single lascannon +60

 

Would make the list legal without losing anything really.

Edited November 13, 2017 by H311fi5h

[TheShredder]

Shredder, I am just trying to theory hammer. I have no good idea why the best I have is the advance thing (and for the Lascannon....because he has the option?). Like unless he had a super strategy I am missing, beside advancing them every turn. I am of the same opanion you are. Or he was actually intending to use the Vostroyan Shoot in Combat Order.

 

I appreciate that. I was just saying that their loadout seems equally puzzling even if the plan was to Advance them. 

 

 

In regard to the whole regiment thing, if he had just dropped a mortar squad with a Company Commander. Or not taken the Melta Bombs on Death Commander and use an Asrtropath. Etc. There were several side grades he could quite reasonably have done to get a Platoon/Company Commander.

 

Do you mean to carry the Relic of Cadia?

 

If so, absolutely. But it would have been a Cadian Commander and the only other Cadians he had were Manticores, so the orders would have been wasted.

 

But then, I guess you could argue that a 20pt Platoon commander would be worth it for the relic alone, even if his one order was wasted.

 

In any case, I was just saying that his list (as written) doesn't contain any legal place to put the Relic of Cadia.

Edited November 13, 2017 by TheShredder

[Withershadow]

 

 

Grenade launchers are awesome, the ones throwing derision at them do not use them due to mathhammer, or keep citing trauma from that one game where they used one that one time and rolled a 1. Let's leave that topic to the 4 or 5 threads it's was heatedly discussed.

Grenade Launchers are garbage. The ones praising them are the ones who don't understand mathhammer or who remember that one time when they used them and kept rolling 6s.

 

We're playing the game where we just blindly throw assertions at each other, right?

It's not a blind assertion but a summary of prior discussions on the topic, where the naysayers were using a single anecdotal incident and erroneous mathhammer. Point for point, grenade launchers and plasma guns are very similar in average results against most targets, with the grenade launcher having a much higher potential casualty ceiling. In an edition where everything can hurt everything and volume is king, that is a significant advantage. The choice is not clear cut and both options have their place. I routinely use 6 GL to great success, although they've moved from my Guard squads to my command units.

[Chris521]

I think a lot of people find normal veteran squads a bit lacking, but I suppose that they could be one of the better spots to put a grenade launcher (I'm not claiming to be a big believer in them).  I think in normal infantry squads, it both waters down FRFSRF and is out paced by the weapons using it,  but with the higher amount of special and heavy weapons in a veteran squad, they will be less likely to receive that particular order anyway.  There is also the sloppy plasma nerf to take into account (I think that should have been just a scion thing).

[duz_]

 

 

 

Grenade launchers are awesome, the ones throwing derision at them do not use them due to mathhammer, or keep citing trauma from that one game where they used one that one time and rolled a 1. Let's leave that topic to the 4 or 5 threads it's was heatedly discussed.

Grenade Launchers are garbage. The ones praising them are the ones who don't understand mathhammer or who remember that one time when they used them and kept rolling 6s.

 

We're playing the game where we just blindly throw assertions at each other, right?

It's not a blind assertion but a summary of prior discussions on the topic, where the naysayers were using a single anecdotal incident and erroneous mathhammer. Point for point, grenade launchers and plasma guns are very similar in average results against most targets, with the grenade launcher having a much higher potential casualty ceiling. In an edition where everything can hurt everything and volume is king, that is a significant advantage. The choice is not clear cut and both options have their place. I routinely use 6 GL to great success, although they've moved from my Guard squads to my command units.

=][=

Enough! There is no need for name calling or putting down of others with different views.

 

Clearly this list includes GLs and he did well enough with them.

 

Move the GL debate to another thread and be civil if you really need to discuss it in detail.

=][=

[TheShredder]

 

It's not a blind assertion but a summary of prior discussions on the topic, where the naysayers were using a single anecdotal incident and erroneous mathhammer. Point for point, grenade launchers and plasma guns are very similar in average results against most targets, with the grenade launcher having a much higher potential casualty ceiling. In an edition where everything can hurt everything and volume is king, that is a significant advantage. The choice is not clear cut and both options have their place. I routinely use 6 GL to great success, although they've moved from my Guard squads to my command units.

 

 

What rubbish. The only ones relying on faulty mathhammer and anecdotes are people like you, trying to argue that grenade launchers are somehow decent weapons. 

 

They are orders of magnitude worse than plasmaguns. They have worse strength (significantly worse if the plasmaguns are overcharging), much worse AP, unreliable damage and don't get to shoot twice within 12", and the idea that d3 wounds equates to a higher casualty ceiling than a straight 4 wounds frankly boggles the mind. And don't even get me started on their secondary fire mode.

 

You want to pay points on a bad unit and then waste them on one of the worst weapons in our codex because the good weapon is a bit more expensive, go ahead. But don't pretend that the end result is somehow a good option. It's not. 

[Halfpint100]

 

 

It's not a blind assertion but a summary of prior discussions on the topic, where the naysayers were using a single anecdotal incident and erroneous mathhammer. Point for point, grenade launchers and plasma guns are very similar in average results against most targets, with the grenade launcher having a much higher potential casualty ceiling. In an edition where everything can hurt everything and volume is king, that is a significant advantage. The choice is not clear cut and both options have their place. I routinely use 6 GL to great success, although they've moved from my Guard squads to my command units.

 

 

What rubbish. The only ones relying on faulty mathhammer and anecdotes are people like you, trying to argue that grenade launchers are somehow decent weapons. 

 

They are orders of magnitude worse than plasmaguns. They have worse strength (significantly worse if the plasmaguns are overcharging), much worse AP, unreliable damage and don't get to shoot twice within 12", and the idea that d3 wounds equates to a higher casualty ceiling than a straight 4 wounds frankly boggles the mind. And don't even get me started on their secondary fire mode.

 

You want to pay points on a bad unit and then waste them on one of the worst weapons in our codex because the good weapon is a bit more expensive, go ahead. But don't pretend that the end result is somehow a good option. It's not. 

 

 

Shredder, when an admin tells you to end the conversation, you do. It is polite and common sense, just for future reference. 

Edited November 14, 2017 by Halfpint100

[TheShredder]

 

 

 

It's not a blind assertion but a summary of prior discussions on the topic, where the naysayers were using a single anecdotal incident and erroneous mathhammer. Point for point, grenade launchers and plasma guns are very similar in average results against most targets, with the grenade launcher having a much higher potential casualty ceiling. In an edition where everything can hurt everything and volume is king, that is a significant advantage. The choice is not clear cut and both options have their place. I routinely use 6 GL to great success, although they've moved from my Guard squads to my command units.

 

 

What rubbish. The only ones relying on faulty mathhammer and anecdotes are people like you, trying to argue that grenade launchers are somehow decent weapons. 

 

They are orders of magnitude worse than plasmaguns. They have worse strength (significantly worse if the plasmaguns are overcharging), much worse AP, unreliable damage and don't get to shoot twice within 12", and the idea that d3 wounds equates to a higher casualty ceiling than a straight 4 wounds frankly boggles the mind. And don't even get me started on their secondary fire mode.

 

You want to pay points on a bad unit and then waste them on one of the worst weapons in our codex because the good weapon is a bit more expensive, go ahead. But don't pretend that the end result is somehow a good option. It's not. 

 

 

Shredder, when an admin tells you to end the conversation, you do. It is polite and common sense, just for future reference. 

 

 

Yes, you're right. It just irritates me to let someone have the last word in a debate after they basically said 'anyone who disagrees with me is an idiot'.

[Zectz]

You want to pay points on a bad unit and then waste them on one of the worst weapons in our codex because the good weapon is a bit more expensive, go ahead. But don't pretend that the end result is somehow a good option. It's not.

Brings veterans.

Gives them max grenade launchers.

Wins tournament.

Profit. :))))))

 

Maybe, just maybe, you might want to take a step back and consider that there is more to it than what you assume about both veterans and grenade launchers in general. :) I won't continue this debate after this post because it's like flogging a dead horse + admin said so.

[TheShredder]

 

You want to pay points on a bad unit and then waste them on one of the worst weapons in our codex because the good weapon is a bit more expensive, go ahead. But don't pretend that the end result is somehow a good option. It's not.

Brings veterans.

Gives them max grenade launchers.

Wins tournament.

Profit. )))))

 

Maybe, just maybe, you might want to take a step back and consider that there is more to it than what you assume about both veterans and grenade launchers in general. I won't continue this debate after this post because it's like flogging a dead horse + admin said so.

 

 

If you can find some battle reports or such from the tournament which demonstrate that those Veteran Squads with Grenade Launchers were the keys to his victories, then I'll be happy to reconsider my opinion on both. 

 

If not, then this just seems like quite a leap in logic. You're basically saying that if a person wins a tournament, every single unit in his list must have been amazing. 

 

If his list had included a Deathstrike Missile, would you now be saying that those must actually be great units and totally worth their points and a place in your list? 

[H311fi5h]

Let's get back on topic. The Veterans squads were clearly chosen for two reasons: Filling the mandatory elites for the brigade and getting another lascannon. There are two other options to achieve the same:

1) Bring command squads with a single lascannon - less tax, but also less bodies to protect the valuable gun. Maybe an option for a unit staying in cover and as far back as possible?

2) Platoon Commander + Infantry Squad with LasPlas. - similar in points, less firepower but one additional order

 

Or do you think Astropaths are just too good for 15 points?

[TheShredder]

Let's get back on topic. The Veterans squads were clearly chosen for two reasons: Filling the mandatory elites for the brigade and getting another lascannon. There are two other options to achieve the same:

1) Bring command squads with a single lascannon - less tax, but also less bodies to protect the valuable gun. Maybe an option for a unit staying in cover and as far back as possible?

2) Platoon Commander + Infantry Squad with LasPlas. - similar in points, less firepower but one additional order

 

Or do you think Astropaths are just too good for 15 points?

 

1) Command Squads with Lascannons are an interesting possibility. They'd be about half the cost of the Veteran Squads for what amounts to a single BS3+ Lascannon with 2 bodies as fodder. Bit of a gamble but cheap enough that it hardly matters (especially since you're using them to fill out slots anyway).

 

2) I'd probably take Astropaths over Platoon Commanders. Firstly because they're cheaper (which is important if you're looking to just fill slots), and secondly because I just don't like Platoon Commanders. The latter is obviously personal taste, but they just seem wasteful compared to Company Commanders.

 

#1 would save you ~150pts, so it might depend how much value you can get out of them. It's enough for a bare-bones Leman Russ, but this probably isn't the best list for that. Maybe a couple more Las/Plas Infantry Squads?

[H311fi5h]

 

#1 would save you ~150pts, so it might depend how much value you can get out of them. It's enough for a bare-bones Leman Russ, but this probably isn't the best list for that. Maybe a couple more Las/Plas Infantry Squads?

 

 

I'm usually playing a Cadian list with a number of Russes and a ton of infantry. A brigade with 3 CC's, 3 Lascannon Sentinels, 6 LasPlas Infantry Squads and 3 Mortar Squads is my go-to. Elite choices are what I struggle deciding. I think I'll give lascannon command squads a chance (good thing that I own exactly 9 lascannon teams). I think that's a very solid base for any list.

Now to the interesting part: Andrew Whittaker chose 4 Manticores to blow up Primarchs. I'm thinking to do the same job with Leman Russes. 6 would fit points-wise and leave some room for objective grabbers (I was thinking about buying some of those Grav-Chutes from Forgeworld to build a squad of drop troops or two).

 

What alternative options do you see for the Manticore/Deathrider part of the army?

[Halfpint100]

 

 

#1 would save you ~150pts, so it might depend how much value you can get out of them. It's enough for a bare-bones Leman Russ, but this probably isn't the best list for that. Maybe a couple more Las/Plas Infantry Squads?

 

 

I'm usually playing a Cadian list with a number of Russes and a ton of infantry. A brigade with 3 CC's, 3 Lascannon Sentinels, 6 LasPlas Infantry Squads and 3 Mortar Squads is my go-to. Elite choices are what I struggle deciding. I think I'll give lascannon command squads a chance (good thing that I own exactly 9 lascannon teams). I think that's a very solid base for any list.

Now to the interesting part: Andrew Whittaker chose 4 Manticores to blow up Primarchs. I'm thinking to do the same job with Leman Russes. 6 would fit points-wise and leave some room for objective grabbers (I was thinking about buying some of those Grav-Chutes from Forgeworld to build a squad of drop troops or two).

 

What alternative options do you see for the Manticore/Deathrider part of the army?

 

 

He used them with the relic of lost cadia to unleash an average of 28 shots re-rolling hits, potentially combined with the 2cp strat for +1 to hit, leading to 25 hits (24.84) wounding on 3s, with re-rolls, leads to 22 wounds. That is brutal! even with primarchs 4++ 11D3 damage...... average of 19 wounds. Dead primarch (disgusting Resistance and magnus re-roll 1s on invuns would reduce this). 

 

I am hard pressed to find something that could also do that for the points. Maybe Earthshaker platforms? 4 manticores is 532 points. can get 6 earthshaker platforms for that. or 9 infantry squads with a lascannon. You would be hard pressed to find a better "anti-big think with a great invun save" squad than 4 manticores and the relic of lost cadia. 

 

Deathriders, not sure. never used them so I can't really come up with another option. 

[TheShredder]

 

 

 

#1 would save you ~150pts, so it might depend how much value you can get out of them. It's enough for a bare-bones Leman Russ, but this probably isn't the best list for that. Maybe a couple more Las/Plas Infantry Squads?

 

 

I'm usually playing a Cadian list with a number of Russes and a ton of infantry. A brigade with 3 CC's, 3 Lascannon Sentinels, 6 LasPlas Infantry Squads and 3 Mortar Squads is my go-to. Elite choices are what I struggle deciding. I think I'll give lascannon command squads a chance (good thing that I own exactly 9 lascannon teams). I think that's a very solid base for any list.

Now to the interesting part: Andrew Whittaker chose 4 Manticores to blow up Primarchs. I'm thinking to do the same job with Leman Russes. 6 would fit points-wise and leave some room for objective grabbers (I was thinking about buying some of those Grav-Chutes from Forgeworld to build a squad of drop troops or two).

 

What alternative options do you see for the Manticore/Deathrider part of the army?

 

 

He used them with the relic of lost cadia to unleash an average of 28 shots re-rolling hits, potentially combined with the 2cp strat for +1 to hit, leading to 25 hits (24.84) wounding on 3s, with re-rolls, leads to 22 wounds. That is brutal! even with primarchs 4++ 11D3 damage...... average of 19 wounds. Dead primarch (disgusting Resistance and magnus re-roll 1s on invuns would reduce this).

 

Isn't that only against Chaos though?

 

Otherwise they're only rerolling 1s, not all hits and wounds - which I believe would result in 22 hits (21.8) and then 17 wounds (16.9).

 

I mean, it's still pretty brutal, just not to quite the same degree. 

 

 

Manticores really do seem brutal though. 4 shots hardly matter if the opponent is tabled by turn 5. 

[Mitchverr]

 

What alternative options do you see for the Manticore/Deathrider part of the army?

 

 

If you mean to do a simular job for the death riders, there isnt anything that can really in the guard army. The closest would be bullgryns i suppose, though they are slower, less numbers and unable to come in off any table edge (they also cant get orders).

 

Death riders have a fairly unique position within the guard army, there isnt really anything that can do the job they do of being fast aggressive close combat units, especially vs more elite infantry/rear line equipment.

 

So for alternative, it would be a fully different stratagy.

Edited November 14, 2017 by Mitchverr

[Schlitzaf]

I mean Mortarion and Magnus are persumably the primarchs they are referring to. Also I just realized why Lascannons perhaps Shredder.

 

Vostroyans only have two Heavy Weapons in their kits (easily accessible). Lascannons and Heavy Bolters.

[Tirak]

Only Wyvrens and Basilisks can use Air Spotters, so no his Manticores won't get a +1. If you play Catachans and include Harker, you get the same shooting and get a reroll. If you spend 72 points more you're packing 4 russes, rerolling every shot generation dice and having the same effect on Primarchs, though you need LOS, but at that point you've nearly bought yourself another Manticore as you've spent 123 points in upgunning to russes and bringing Harker.

 

On the upside, you're much more durable with the high toughness.

[Withershadow]

The +1 to hit here comes from Cadia's coordinated lines of fire stratagem.

 

 

What alternative options do you see for the Manticore/Deathrider part of the army?

 

If you mean to do a simular job for the death riders, there isnt anything that can really in the guard army. The closest would be bullgryns i suppose, though they are slower, less numbers and unable to come in off any table edge (they also cant get orders).

 

Death riders have a fairly unique position within the guard army, there isnt really anything that can do the job they do of being fast aggressive close combat units, especially vs more elite infantry/rear line equipment.

 

So for alternative, it would be a fully different stratagy.

Technically, Bullgryns can outflank with an officer and a dagger.

 

I have a similar list @2000.

Cadia

HQ - 2x Company Commanders

Elites - Astropath, 2x command squads with banner/grenade launchers

Troops - 6x Infantry squad with las/plas

FA - 3x scout sentinels with lascannons

HS - 2x mortar squads, 3x earthshaker carriages with crew

 

Catachan Vanguard

Yarrick

2x Manticores

Leman Russ Conqueror

2x Chimeras with dual flamers

 

Krieg Spearhead

Marshall, memento mori, sword of conquest, plasma pistol

Ministorum Priest with plasma gun

10x Engineers, 2x meltas, demo charge, melta-bomb, paxe

10x Engineers, as above

 

Definitely not as optimized as the tournament list, but I wanted to use the Yarrick boat. The command squads are an experiment that provides surprising results for such a small unit from a distance with 3D6 shots rerolling 1s. The banner is a poor substitute for the old Commissars, but saves lives here and there. So far opponents ignore them in favor of the scoring Infantry Squads rerolling to hit with lascannons and overcharged plasma, but we'll see. If they start attracting crazy attention, I want to try a squad with mortar team, medic and banner. Medic can try to recover that unfortunate plasmagunner or whatever, and the whole unit can contribute while staying out of sight.

 

The Manticores are better as Cadia, but I wanted the Chimeras for my Yarrick and Engineers boat. The Conqueror has been surprisingly brutal with 2D6 battle cannon shots rerolling quantity of shots and to hit rolls due to coaxial stormbolter. Yummy.

 

The engineers could be min-maxed too. Plasma guns are better in that mix but I built them with meltas. I should probably run 4 squads of 5 for more demo charges and sgts. The Marshall is a monster but I am starting to fear the plasma pistol overcharge even in Yarrick's aura.

Edited November 14, 2017 by Withershadow

[Mitchverr]

 

Technically, Bullgryns can outflank with an officer and a dagger.

 

 

Infantry officer and same regiment isnt it as of the FAQ? Meaning they cant use the dagger because the ogryn characters dont have offiicer keyword.

Edited November 14, 2017 by Mitchverr

[TheShredder]

Regarding replacements for Death Riders, could you not just use Rough Riders?

 

They have worse stats, sure, but they're quite a bit cheaper.

[Withershadow]

 

 

Technically, Bullgryns can outflank with an officer and a dagger.

 

Infantry officer and same regiment isnt it as of the FAQ? Meaning they cant use the dagger because the ogryn characters dont have offiicer keyword.

Masters of Ordnance and Officers of the Fleet don't have regiment keywords.

[Mitchverr]

 

Masters of Ordnance and Officers of the Fleet don't have regiment keywords.

 

 

Actually neither of them have officer keyword meaning they cant take it anyway, nor are they same "regiment" as bullgryns, MoO does have regiment keyword also unless that was changed and OotF is aeronautica imperialis.

Edited November 14, 2017 by Mitchverr

[Guardsman Bob]

Let's get back on topic. The Veterans squads were clearly chosen for two reasons: Filling the mandatory elites for the brigade and getting another lascannon. There are two other options to achieve the same:

1) Bring command squads with a single lascannon - less tax, but also less bodies to protect the valuable gun. Maybe an option for a unit staying in cover and as far back as possible?

2) Platoon Commander + Infantry Squad with LasPlas. - similar in points, less firepower but one additional order

 

Or do you think Astropaths are just too good for 15 points?

This! When on autopilot those Astropaths are the first choice. Supra dupe Psyched Caddies that can nerf cover saves. Almost a steal until you see what the Eldar get, then things level out in there respective abilities.

 

It certainly was a roundabout way maximizing Las Cannons but maybe that’s where the genius lies. After having put much effort to get Veterans to work certain ways in past editions it isn’t easy rethinking it so soon. It’s been a good lesson so far. I’ll have to second the wishing for battle reports.