DW Tactica: Taking on Tyranids

[Prot]

xenos time....

 

We know the nids are out now. Some of us have had some limited experience in the opening days since their codex got updated for 8th edition.

 

 

 

One thing I've learned from playing Tyranids is to deploy your units spread out. They move insanely and their ability to advance and charge makes them a huge threat.

I've always been assaulted by at latest turn 2, and a pack of genestealers or hormagaunts are large enough that they can tie up multiple units easily. Once they're tied up, they're pretty much out of the game. The only counter I've had success with were flyers and infernus predators, but it felt cheesy in anything 1k point and less, and it's not going to work on other armies in a tournament.

 

 

Agreed... I try really hard not to list tailor my games, but typically I can't since we randomly pair off in my groups/stores. In this case I know a few guys... at least 3 that have been dying for their Nids to get updated. 

 

I think this is its own thread though. So let's move it over to a new topic.

 

As mentioned we've seen big changes from points reductions to units, to some serious challenges for psychic armies.

 

Shadow in the Warp is very good. I think it can force a test on a single D6 (I can't remember)

I know there is a relic that is very anti psyker.

 

I've seen the speed personally... 38" first turn charge from Genestealers.

 

Zoanthropes in groups of 4 are really good with Smite (I think it's 2D3 motrals at 24", correct me on this.)

 

I can see a mix of Hive rules happening between shooty and assaulty 'chapter tactics'.

 

Flyrant looks like it's back, as is the shooty DakkaFex (I think it's about 105 pts now for dread stats).

 

 

O

 

n

 

e thing I've learned from playing Tyranids is to deploy your units spread out. They move insanely and their ability to advance and charge makes them a huge threat.

I've always been assaulted by at latest turn 2, and a pack of genestealers or hormagaunts are large enough that they can tie up multiple units easily. Once they're tied up, they're pretty much out of the game. The only counter I've had success with were flyers and infernus predators, but it felt cheesy in anything 1k point and less, and it's not going to work on other armies in a tournament.

 

 

Agreed... I try really hard not to list tailor my games, but typically I can't since we randomly pair off in my groups/stores. In this case I know a few guys... at least 3 that have been dying for their Nids to get updated. 

 

I think this is its own thread though. So let's move it over to a new topic.

 

 

[Moostick]

Rather than a tactic against them, I'll give examples of things I thought of that they can now bring. I was helping a friend come up with a list and my first thought was Tyranids might be a better shooty army than us now.

 

Reigning champion of the codex would be Carnifex w/ 4x devourer or deathspitters, enhanced senses. 105 pts, and you have a walking AC Razorback that costs about the same, has a better gun, does not degrade, and can still hold its own in melee. That's 12 S7, AP1 shots or 24 S6 AP0 shots a turn from a single model. Both are Assault. Take a few, pair them up with a Malanthrope and take them as Jormungandr, and you have a 2+, -1 to hit walking gunline of death.

 

3x Hive Guard with Impaler Cannons speak for themselves. Basically anti-tank artillery. 6 S8 AP2, D3D shots a turn for 144 points with T5 and 9 wounds. 36" range hurts them, but if you set them up at the end of your deployment zone behind something to block LoS, they rarely need to move.

 

Genestealer or gaunt hordes serve as a blockade or distraction assault. 30 gaunts is 120 points and can put out a lot of dakka; even more if a few switch to devourers. Genestealers will be in your face where ever they're needed with infestation nodes.

 

I'm sure there's more, but my prediction is that a dakka Carnifex will be one of the most popular builds.

 

Edit: Malanthropes with Jor are essentially an ideal gunline build -1 To Hit and constant cover. Forgot how much Malanthropes cost, but they are fairly cheap, I believe. They are fragile though, but give them a proper guard and you can't get close.

 

Flyers are the best bet against a list like this, both because they are defensive and can travel far, but we don't have anything except the Corvus. If they deny deepstrike with proper placement, then we'd need a lot of flamers to clear the horde, or bring a strike team by Corvus to kill the Malanthropes.

Edited November 14, 2017 by Moostick

[Prot]

So your still anti xenos right? Because if I didn't better, that looks like an ad for playing them! ;) 

 

Seriously though, I knew the Dakka fex was going to be potent, but that's a good comparison to an Assault Cannon Razorback for the points. It makes you wonder if GW really should increase the assault cannon costs... so many armies actually rely on it!

[Mobius0288]

I wonder if a Relic Deimos with an inferno cannon and two heavy flamers would make them hesitate before charging you

[Moostick]

I wonder if a Relic Deimos with an inferno cannon and two heavy flamers would make them hesitate before charging you

 

Did you call Dave, the Death Company Deathwatch tank commander with a red thirst for wine?

 

Infernus works, but only if your opponent charges it with the wrong unit or doesn't focus on it early. It can't kill a full gaunt squad, so if it's followed by another unit, then it can't overwatch anymore and can potentially be killed then. My opponent also did not focus on it because he wasn't aware of its capabilities and used all his Hive Guards to try and down the other vehicles with bigger guns. Don't think he'll make that mistake again. That being said, it can still be devastating if it gets a turn of shooting by utilizing LoS and if the opponent has no artillery. If it survives a charge, it can also fallback and overwatch again. However, if the opponent focuses on it, then it won't last long. Remember Deimos Predators also have a "tax" on them right now and costs about 15-20% more than a regular Predator for just +1W due to no adjustments on point costs for FW models yet.

 

I'm building a balls on assault DW army though, so my Infernus Pred stays most of the time.

[Vel'Cona]

Flyers are the best bet against a list like this, both because they are defensive and can travel far, but we don't have anything except the Corvus.

 

FWIW I think that's probably one of the better options to have vs. Nids.  Corvus is flexible, durable (ish) and can get our dudes in/out of a hairy situation very well.  It's just a shame it can't help our Dreadnoughts (like the SR can).

[Moostick]

Amazing what a difference the codex makes. Against the same army, I was tabled by turn 5. My Infernus Pred died T1 from artillery.

 

Tyranids have a pretty cheesy strategem (Endless Swarm). For just 2 CP, they can revive an entire Infantry unit that was destroyed with flanking rules. That can be a free 200+ point unit per turn that comes from anywhere from the table edge. I expect a nerf on that soon.

[HorrOwl]

Tyranids have a pretty cheesy strategem (Endless Swarm). For just 2 CP, they can revive an entire Infantry unit that was destroyed with flanking rules. That can be a free 200+ point unit per turn that comes from anywhere from the table edge. I expect a nerf on that soon.

. Add an identical unit to your army, and set it up as reinforcements wholly within 6" of any

board edge, more than 9" from enemy models

But it is reinforcement so it is not free and nids player must reserve points for it Edited November 19, 2017 by HorrOwl

[Moostick]

Well, guess he misplayed it then, but I'm just as guilty for not verifying.

 

But in this case, that wouldn't have changed the outcome; I still would have lost badly.

[shanewatts]

 

Flyers are the best bet against a list like this, both because they are defensive and can travel far, but we don't have anything except the Corvus.

 

FWIW I think that's probably one of the better options to have vs. Nids.  Corvus is flexible, durable (ish) and can get our dudes in/out of a hairy situation very well.  It's just a shame it can't help our Dreadnoughts (like the SR can).

 

There is always Forge World Fliers :D

[Prot]

The thing I fear about the corvus is when it's matched up vs Flyrants. 

 

As far as the removal of the unit strategem, I know Chaos has one of those, but it's for Cultists and it doesn't have a 'reinforcement' cost. But it is worded slightly differently I think and it's only cultists... But it's definitely worth looking into.

[Irbis]

 

Infernus works, but only if your opponent charges it with the wrong unit or doesn't focus on it early. It can't kill a full gaunt squad, so if it's followed by another unit, then it can't overwatch anymore and can potentially be killed then. My opponent also did not focus on it because he wasn't aware of its capabilities and used all his Hive Guards to try and down the other vehicles with bigger guns. Don't think he'll make that mistake again. That being said, it can still be devastating if it gets a turn of shooting by utilizing LoS and if the opponent has no artillery. If it survives a charge, it can also fallback and overwatch again. However, if the opponent focuses on it, then it won't last long. Remember Deimos Predators also have a "tax" on them right now and costs about 15-20% more than a regular Predator for just +1W due to no adjustments on point costs for FW models yet.

 

What about using flamer Aggressor squad as screening unit? Thinking of getting a set of EtB ones if the price is good and they get worthwhile point drops in CA...

[Moostick]

His Hive Guard were able to kill my Infernus Pred T1 with artillery fire, so if we run the Infernus we need a distraction. Screening with just a few models might be a little hard because he can still run/charge around them unless it's a narrow path, but it might be possible.

 

We got the point drop on the Preds at least, and Sicarans are looking pretty nice now too...I'm not super keen on too much FW, but that's really our only option right now.

[Moostick]

Still can't deal with Nids. Getting smited 4 times + other D3 damage spells a turn is ridiculous, made worse as they still have around a 50% chance of it casting when Neurothropes can reroll 1s. I was winning until T4, but then crumbled from poor Objective draws and loss of my entire front line.

 

3++ and <Character> on most of their psykers is just way too hard to take down. I tried ignoring all the chaff and killed all the big units and models, but this left 4 psykers with a huge entourage, and they just advanced into my backline and smited everyone. In addition, by ignoring the chaff, he had full board control afterwards. My DtW rolls were bad for the first two turns, so that contributed, but I don't think it would've made too much of a difference.

 

Ideas on some ways to deal with 4 psykers surrounded by about 80 troops and a Swarmlord (who smites too!)? Can't drop behind as they're bubble wrapped. Can't charge because of bubble wrap.Can't shoot because of bubble wrap.

 

Edit: I ignored the chaff to kill Hive Guard, Genestealers, and the Swarmlord. If I ignored these and went for the chaff, my lines would crumble all the same from the melee beasts, and my backline would get destroyed by the Hive Guard.

Edited January 20, 2018 by Moostick

[spacewatch]

I guess that having two Vindicare assassins is not an option? Just wondering that because you can manage four turns then two assassins could maybe kill 2-3 psykers before turn 5/6 grande finale.

 

(This is not relevant in your case but I have had some success with two Vindicare assassins, two Deep Strike AC-Terminators and Frag Team (including Terminator and VVet)+Librarian in Corvus against 5 Orc Weirdboys (psykers) surrounded by 50 regular Boyz. Turn 1 Corvus rushes up, Vindicares are able to kill one Weirboy while Corvus+Deep Striking Terminators eliminate Boyz as much as they can (typically 10-15). Turn 2 Corvus is usually heavily damaged (Orc Smites) but flies, Vindicares kill another Weirdboy and Corvus+Terminators+Frag Team kill another 10-15 Boyz. In Orc Turn 3 Librarian is able to deny one Smite and when it's DW turn Librarian Smites back and with good luck Vindicares are then able to kill two Weirdboys. Remaining Weirboy and 20 Boyz are no threat against Frag Team. I don't know how hard it's to kill Tyrannids psykers but this usually works against up to 5 Orc psykers ...more than 5 and it suddenly becomes totally hopeless.)

[Moostick]

Hmm...that's something to consider. The main problem for me is the cost for 2 seems high for 2D3 damage, so they only might kill one a turn (5 wounds). My assumption on average kill time would be 4-5 turns to kill 3?

 

I'm also afraid hive guard will make mince meat out of him with their ignore cover. Most boards I play have high terrain around the middle, so I likely can't sit the assassins outside their range.

[spacewatch]

Hmm...that's something to consider. The main problem for me is the cost for 2 seems high for 2D3 damage, so they only might kill one a turn (5 wounds). My assumption on average kill time would be 4-5 turns to kill 3?

 

Yes, 3-4 turns is good assumption. My experience is that two Exitus Rifles on average cause 4 wounds per turn (sometimes have to use re-roll stratagem) so they are effective in my case (Weirdboy=W4). W5 makes them too unreliable to kill one psyker per turn so not worth taking. Against Tyrannids I'd playtest Culexus assassin instead. Enemy cannot Smite Culexus assassins and they can drop enemy's Smite casting probability from ~83% to ~58% which, in your case is ~10 mortal wounds less during first four rounds. Or at least your opponent have to use re-roll strategems to maintain higher mortal wound rate per turn.

[Moostick]

I used Culexus with Hector in the recent match and it was ok, but he was able to maneuver around the aura fairly easily.

I think I need to go for beta strikes instead and just stay on my side of the field T1. My Culexus failed to get the charge with the front line, and Hector whiffed all his denies, so maybe the dice gods had something to do with it after all.

Edit: might just get 2 Culexus, run them in the middle with assault units and hope for the best.

 

My list was

 

Frontline

Mephiston

Lemartes

10x DC

 

Hector Rec

Culexus

3x Inceptor w/ AB

 

Backline

15 x Veterans

Captain

Whirlwind Scorpius

 

I definitely misplayed Mephiston, but everything else did a good job. I came out far ahead in the first 3 rounds, but the end of T4, I was losing to smites and board control. I would say worst offender were the Inceptors to my overall plan; I may replace them with a bodyguard for the HQs.

Edited January 20, 2018 by Moostick