Lore/plausibility question

[StormLion]

Hi everyone, I am new to the game (still building my first army). As I have been building the army, my original intention was to build it as a Raven Guard successor chapter. However, in reading DA lore and with the new Codex coming out, I've decided to amend it to make it a DA successor chapter and join the ranks of the Unforgiven. In doing so, however, I have a question. How plausible do you think it would be brothers, to have a "patron saint"? In looking at the DAs and the allegory of a monastic military order and comparing it to real life historical examples, the precedent is there. But I don't want to wonder into apostasy before my first game even happens.

 

Obviously it doesn't effect any game mechanics, and it would be just for fluff. I like my fluff, though. Basically, the name of the chapter (Knights of St. _____) and maybe some peculiarities with the chapters Death Wing. Does anyone seen any fluff problems with such an idea? 

[Toomanyprojects]

An actual saint might be pushing things a bit, but having them revere a member of their chapter from the past who performed some mighty and heroic deed is not only good, but fits beautifully with the idea of the Dark Angels.

 

With a couple of exceptions (such as the black templars,) the space marines aren't terribly religious, but they have a reverence for the past. So perhaps your previous chapter hero redeemed himself and absolved the chapter from the sins of their past by personally defeating an incursion from a massive invasion of their homeworld by forces led by the fallen?

Edited November 14, 2017 by Toomanyprojects

[StormLion]

An actual saint might be pushing things a bit, but having them revere a member of their chapter from the past who performed some mighty and heroic deed is not only good, but fits beautifully with the idea of the Dark Angels.

 

With a couple of exceptions (such as the black templars,) the space marines aren't terribly religious, but they have a reverence for the past. So perhaps your previous chapter hero redeemed himself and absolved the chapter from the sins of their past by personally defeating an incursion from a massive invasion of their homeworld by forces led by the fallen?

 

Hmmm...this....could work. I'm building a Primaris successor (counting on the fact that the codex will open up all the Primaris to the Dark Angels). My idea is the chapter is charged with protecting/taming/pacifying a world near the Great Rift. It fits the mission profile a knightly order may be given.

[Toomanyprojects]

make the fluff work for you - if it works for you then do it.

 

Your chapter idea oes sound good. Perhaps the obvious course of action would be for them to revere The Lion as their head and seek to prove their newly founded chapter worthy of him by emulating the order? That would contain elements of both of your ideas

[StormLion]

make the fluff work for you - if it works for you then do it.

 

Your chapter idea oes sound good. Perhaps the obvious course of action would be for them to revere The Lion as their head and seek to prove their newly founded chapter worthy of him by emulating the order? That would contain elements of both of your ideas

 

"Knights of the Lion" is what I am working with right now.

[Bryan Blaire]

Having them revere a great hero, even/especially their original Chapter Master, as part of their Chapter cult, seeing him as an example to live up to - especially if his great deeds are enumerated in the Book of the Lion (something that could easily be in the fluff, it's not far fetched at all) - is a great idea. I don't think they'd actually call him a saint (as in Ecclisarchy saint) or name themselves the Knights of St. _____, but to have that be their background, totally would be cool. Gives a reason for each Marine to constantly try to better himself, etc., and how does anyone know that X individual didn't really slay 6429 daemons on the battlefield in one day or eat 24 36" pies in one sitting if it is written in the Book of the Lion? Just make sure it still shows that they revere the Lion over all others (plus he probably slayed 28 36" pies - what, did you think I would go with the daemons?) and you have yourself a winner right there.

[jbaeza94]

Another suggestion, why not make the first company named the Knights of (Insert Company/Chapter Master's Name)? It still gives you that high reverence towards a fierce pie eating warrior of the past, while also giving you the name in an easy to fit format. Maybe originally the first company carried the standard chapter or Deathwing name, but under the command of a leader they made an incredibly heroic last stand, or were incredibly successful that over time they became to be known as that Knights of (Insert Company/Chapter Master's Name). 

[StormLion]

Another suggestion, why not make the first company named the Knights of (Insert Company/Chapter Master's Name)? It still gives you that high reverence towards a fierce pie eating warrior of the past, while also giving you the name in an easy to fit format. Maybe originally the first company carried the standard chapter or Deathwing name, but under the command of a leader they made an incredibly heroic last stand, or were incredibly successful that over time they became to be known as that Knights of (Insert Company/Chapter Master's Name).

 

I thought of that, mainly because I'm trying to decide if I want to keep "Death Wing" as the name of the 1st company. It solves one problem, but then creates another. Specifically, the name of the chapter.

 

I like where your head is, though, and I appreciate the help.

Edited November 15, 2017 by StormLion

[jbaeza94]

You could try creating a name such as the Order of Old Caliban, the Order of El'Johnson, the Order of the Lion. In this way you can also keep your honors to the Lion, while observing the old traditions of the Order. Maybe make the name based off the home world, maybe its a desert planet, or a jungle planet. Knights of the Frozen Monastery, Knights of (Homeworld Name). Maybe use the Hexagrammaton in the name, a throwback to legion organization. after all, it is rumored that some primaris where around the time of the great crusade, its possible, if the rumors are true, that some were even part of the Order.

 

Just kind of rapid firing ideas to help. 

Edited November 15, 2017 by jbaeza94

[Phoebus]

Quick note:

 

Remember, one of the themes surrounding the Dark Angels and the Unforgiven is the High Lords' fear that they are secretly acting in concert, as a Legion. As such, Dark Angels Successors refrain from using "Deathwing" and "Ravenwing" as names for their First and Second Companies.

[StormLion]

You could try creating a name such as the Order of Old Caliban, the Order of El'Johnson, the Order of the Lion. In this way you can also keep your honors to the Lion, while observing the old traditions of the Order. Maybe make the name based off the home world, maybe its a desert planet, or a jungle planet. Knights of the Frozen Monastery, Knights of (Homeworld Name). Maybe use the Hexagrammaton in the name, a throwback to legion organization. after all, it is rumored that some primaris where around the time of the great crusade, its possible, if the rumors are true, that some were even part of the Order.

 

Just kind of rapid firing ideas to help. 

 

 

Quick note:

 

Remember, one of the themes surrounding the Dark Angels and the Unforgiven is the High Lords' fear that they are secretly acting in concert, as a Legion. As such, Dark Angels Successors refrain from using "Deathwing" and "Ravenwing" as names for their First and Second Companies.

 

First, I did not realize this fact. I thought the traditional names stayed, though this make me happy and my job easier. 

 

Second, I think I am on to something. Your comment about the Hexagrammaton got me thinking and I recalled the Seraph has six wings. This has led me to the following, I think I have the phrases/words (for lack of a better term) that I want to use. Specifically, "Order of"; "Knights of"; "the Black Seraph"; and "Lion." In other words "Order of the Lion/Black Seraph" and "Knights of the Lion/Black Seraph." One will be the Death Wing replacement/First Company name within the other. 

 

Right now I am thinking Knights of the Lion with the 1st Company being Order of the Black Seraph, but I am not sold. Thoughts?

 

Oh, I should mention my color pattern is black armor, Macragge Blue trim on the shoulder pads, and gold aquilla. I've also been using Popgoesthemonkey "Roaring Lion" decals as my crest (also painted gold).

[Steel Company]

 

You could try creating a name such as the Order of Old Caliban, the Order of El'Johnson, the Order of the Lion. In this way you can also keep your honors to the Lion, while observing the old traditions of the Order. Maybe make the name based off the home world, maybe its a desert planet, or a jungle planet. Knights of the Frozen Monastery, Knights of (Homeworld Name). Maybe use the Hexagrammaton in the name, a throwback to legion organization. after all, it is rumored that some primaris where around the time of the great crusade, its possible, if the rumors are true, that some were even part of the Order.

 

Just kind of rapid firing ideas to help. 

 

 

Quick note:

 

Remember, one of the themes surrounding the Dark Angels and the Unforgiven is the High Lords' fear that they are secretly acting in concert, as a Legion. As such, Dark Angels Successors refrain from using "Deathwing" and "Ravenwing" as names for their First and Second Companies.

 

First, I did not realize this fact. I thought the traditional names stayed, though this make me happy and my job easier. 

 

Second, I think I am on to something. Your comment about the Hexagrammaton got me thinking and I recalled the Seraph has six wings. This has led me to the following, I think I have the phrases/words (for lack of a better term) that I want to use. Specifically, "Order of"; "Knights of"; "the Black Seraph"; and "Lion." In other words "Order of the Lion/Black Seraph" and "Knights of the Lion/Black Seraph." One will be the Death Wing replacement/First Company name within the other. 

 

Right now I am thinking Knights of the Lion with the 1st Company being Order of the Black Seraph, but I am not sold. Thoughts?

 

Oh, I should mention my color pattern is black armor, Macragge Blue trim on the shoulder pads, and gold aquilla. I've also been using Popgoesthemonkey "Roaring Lion" decals as my crest (also painted gold).

 

 

 

You are off to a good start, another thing to keep in mind is that aside from the Fallen aspect, there are several other key features of the First Legion, something I recommend to all that start successor chapters of them, is pick two of the themes and run with them, preferably one positive and one negative trait. For example, these are the themes that I can think of, off the top of my head:

 

Positive:

 

Honour

Ancient Tech

Pragmatic

Strategic

 

Negative:

 

Distrust

Secrecy

Pride

Fallen

 

 

The other thing to keep in mind, is how closely do you want them to work with the rest of the Legion Unforgiven, as that will dictate how far they deviate from the DA force organization... If you can get your self a copy of the "Death Watch; Rights of Battle" RPG book, it has an entire section dedicated to the creation of a chapter, it really helps in ironing out everything aside from a name. I seriously cannot recommend getting it enough in either PDF or hard copy... trust me it's worth the cost for chapter creation alone

 

Speaking of the Hexgrammation, if you do decide to deviate somewhat from the traditional DA organization, perhaps look at how the various "wings" worked and pick a couple to work with, and build around them. I use the Deathwing and the Ironwing (in place of the Ravenwing) for my successor chapter.... This is due to my personal dislike of bike mounted troops and preference for armour.

[FlamingDeth]

I'm thinking that Order sounds better for the chapter, and Knights sounds better for the first company since it's a smaller group.

[StormLion]

I'm thinking that Order sounds better for the chapter, and Knights sounds better for the first company since it's a smaller group.

 

Yea, I think I'm going to go with "Order of Lions Resplendent" as the chapter. Then "Knights of the Black Seraph" for the 1st Company. Now on to the 2nd, I'm thinking something along the lines of "Knights of the Argent Moon" or "Knights of the Argent Blade."

[jbaeza94]

Love the name!

Also, I vote for Knights of the Argent Moon.

[StormLion]

Do we like "the Lion Resplendent" or "Lions Resplendent"?

[Steel Company]

Lions Resplendent

 

I'm hard pressed to find a chapter of Astates that place the word "the" in front of their name.

[StormLion]

*cough* Guardians of the Covenant...Knights of the Raven...Legion of the Damned...Knights of the Chalice...

 

I see your point, though. Its under consideration.

[Steel Company]

*cough* Guardians of the Covenant...Knights of the Raven...Legion of the Damned...Knights of the Chalice...

 

I see your point, though. Its under consideration.

 

All good examples, but not exactly what I meant.

 

You do not see:

 

The Imperial Fists

The Ultramarines

The Dark Angels

The Blood Angels

The Ravenguard

The Ironhands

The Salamanders

The Mantis Warriors

ect....

 

No one Astartes Chapter has the word "the" as the first thing in their name, some may have it in there name, but they never start with it.

[jbaeza94]

 

*cough* Guardians of the Covenant...Knights of the Raven...Legion of the Damned...Knights of the Chalice...

 

I see your point, though. Its under consideration.

 

All good examples, but not exactly what I meant.

 

You do not see:

 

The Imperial Fists

The Ultramarines

The Dark Angels

The Blood Angels

The Ravenguard

The Ironhands

The Salamanders

The Mantis Warriors

ect....

 

No one Astartes Chapter has the word "the" as the first thing in their name, some may have it in there name, but they never start with it.

 

I think he means Order of the Lions Resplendent / Order of Lions Resplendent

[StormLion]

 

 

*cough* Guardians of the Covenant...Knights of the Raven...Legion of the Damned...Knights of the Chalice...

 

I see your point, though. Its under consideration.

 

All good examples, but not exactly what I meant.

 

You do not see:

 

The Imperial Fists

The Ultramarines

The Dark Angels

The Blood Angels

The Ravenguard

The Ironhands

The Salamanders

The Mantis Warriors

ect....

 

No one Astartes Chapter has the word "the" as the first thing in their name, some may have it in there name, but they never start with it.

 

I think he means Order of the Lions Resplendent / Order of Lions Resplendent

 

 

This. I didn't feel like writing "Order of...." again. 

[Steel Company]

 

 

 

*cough* Guardians of the Covenant...Knights of the Raven...Legion of the Damned...Knights of the Chalice...

 

I see your point, though. Its under consideration.

 

All good examples, but not exactly what I meant.

 

You do not see:

 

The Imperial Fists

The Ultramarines

The Dark Angels

The Blood Angels

The Ravenguard

The Ironhands

The Salamanders

The Mantis Warriors

ect....

 

No one Astartes Chapter has the word "the" as the first thing in their name, some may have it in there name, but they never start with it.

 

I think he means Order of the Lions Resplendent / Order of Lions Resplendent

 

 

This. I didn't feel like writing "Order of...." again. 

 

 

 

My mistake then, no harm no foul.

 

In regards to having either "Order of the Lions Resplendent" or "Order of Lions Resplendent", I'd go with the former, "Order of the Lions Resplendent"....

 

Though going by the meaning of Resplendent (attractive and impressive through being richly colorful or sumptuous) it almost gives off a vibe that seems a little off with the universe, perhaps "Order of the Lions Rampant" might be a bit better, as Rampant has a meaning that works with what Astartes do. (Violent, unrestrained in action or purpose)

[Phoebus]

Right now I am thinking Knights of the Lion with the 1st Company being Order of the Black Seraph, but I am not sold. Thoughts?

I’ll echo what other have said.

 

Order of the Black Seraph sounds amazing for a Chapter. Order of the Lion Resplendent also sounds cool, but realize that it sounds like a Chapter without any of the baggage the Unforgiven have. If this is on purpose, as a sort of misdirection, then fair enough. Otherwise, “Black Seraph” is basically a synonym for “Dark Angel.” If anything, it’s darker and more specific.

 

Where the First and Second Companies are concerned, I would just recommend that there is a unified theme that ties their names. You’ll note that it took around two decades of working backwards for the authors to come up with a theme that truly makes sense of “Deathwing” and “Ravenwing.” Before, they were just names that sounded cool. Now, it’s understood that they hearken back to a time when the Dark Angels had six “wings” of specialists to support their line legionaries.

 

“Knights of ...” sounds like a good start for both of your Wings. “Order of ...” forms a good basis for that, since we traditionally think of “knightly orders” and the Dark Angels literature makes reference to the Order and lesser orders that got co-opted, like the “Order of the Raven’s Wing.” Hence, “Order of the Black Seraph” acts as a nod to those knightly beginnings, and “Knights of ...” reinforces that concept. My only recommendation beyond that would be to tie the name of each Company to their actual function. The Second Company searches for and hunts down the Fallen. The First Company delivers the killing blow to the Fallen.

 

Just thoughts!

[StormLion]

 

Right now I am thinking Knights of the Lion with the 1st Company being Order of the Black Seraph, but I am not sold. Thoughts?

I’ll echo what other have said.

 

Order of the Black Seraph sounds amazing for a Chapter. Order of the Lion Resplendent also sounds cool, but realize that it sounds like a Chapter without any of the baggage the Unforgiven have. If this is on purpose, as a sort of misdirection, then fair enough. Otherwise, “Black Seraph” is basically a synonym for “Dark Angel.” If anything, it’s darker and more specific.

 

Where the First and Second Companies are concerned, I would just recommend that there is a unified theme that ties their names. You’ll note that it took around two decades of working backwards for the authors to come up with a theme that truly makes sense of “Deathwing” and “Ravenwing.” Before, they were just names that sounded cool. Now, it’s understood that they hearken back to a time when the Dark Angels had six “wings” of specialists to support their line legionaries.

 

“Knights of ...” sounds like a good start for both of your Wings. “Order of ...” forms a good basis for that, since we traditionally think of “knightly orders” and the Dark Angels literature makes reference to the Order and lesser orders that got co-opted, like the “Order of the Raven’s Wing.” Hence, “Order of the Black Seraph” acts as a nod to those knightly beginnings, and “Knights of ...” reinforces that concept. My only recommendation beyond that would be to tie the name of each Company to their actual function. The Second Company searches for and hunts down the Fallen. The First Company delivers the killing blow to the Fallen.

 

Just thoughts!

 

 

I definitely hear you and I do like "The Order of the Black Seraph" as a chapter name. My only problem is, and this is more meta, is that I already have several models done up with a Popgoesthemonkey crest and really don't want to try and rip those off. I could put these units into a 1st or 2nd company, but they are rather disparate and don't fit (for reference its a Gravis Captain, Primaris Captain, 10 Reivers, and 10 Intercessors) (I came to the DA late, but am counting on these all being added in the new codex). I'm also hoping someone can make up a nice design I can stick on as a decal (I put in a request the other day), as I can't freehand to save my life. 

 

As for the names, I agree and am planning on that. Specifically with the 2nd Company, I came up with Argent Blade to sound both dark and mysterious and to describe the speed and which the unit would move. Presuming Reivers and Inceptors are added to the DAs, these units will wind up there. With regard to Lion(s) Resplendent, my thought was two fold. First, these are primarily (totally depending on the codex) Primaris, they don't have as much inherent baggage (I think) and have been spending entirely too much time with RG. As a result, and this is the second part, I'm thinking they will focus a bit more on the honorable/knightly/proud/arrogant side of the Lion.

 

However, to close the loop, if I can figure out how to get the lion crest off the models without destroying them and I get a nice decal or I/someone comes up with a brilliant idea, I would change the name (again).

[Brother-Sergeant Bohemond]

I love your idea. I'd still stick with Resplendent, though, due to the dichotomy that you can play with - considering that the setting is dark, and the sons of the Lion have such a dark secret, yet the name conjures up glory and dazzle. Its perfect irony.